Carillion go down the shitter [split topic]

[RacialKen]

But I guess back in the early 80s no one had any inkling of the need to upgrade wired connections into peoples' homes (I don't think we can blame the Thatcher government for not pre-empting what Tim Berners Lee was going to invent 9 years later).

Ah, but we can:

http://www.techradar.com/news/world-of-tech/how-the-uk-lost-the-broadband-race-in-1990-1224784

"In 1986, I managed to get fibre to the home cheaper than copper and we started a programme where we built factories for manufacturing the system. By 1990, we had two factories, one in Ipswich and one in Birmingham, where were manufacturing components for systems to roll out to the local loop".

At that time, the UK, Japan and the United States were leading the way in fibre optic technology and roll-out. Indeed, the first wide area fibre optic network was set up in Hastings, UK. But, in 1990, then Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher, decided that BT's rapid and extensive rollout of fibre optic broadband was anti-competitive and held a monopoly on a technology and service that no other telecom company could do.

"Unfortunately, the Thatcher government decided that it wanted the American cable companies providing the same service to increase competition. So the decision was made to close down the local loop roll out and in 1991 that roll out was stopped. The two factories that BT had built to build fibre related components were sold to Fujitsu and HP, the assets were stripped and the expertise was shipped out to South East Asia.

[greencalx]

Interesting: I wasn't aware of that. Thanks.

So yet another ideological privatisation, then.

[im barry bethel]

There are Carillion contractors where I work (NHS hospital).
I wasn't on site yesterday, but I'll be popping along to their offices shortly to see what's going on with them - if they're still there.

The NHS contractors should be okay-ish, it's the private contractors,  suppliers and apprentices that are up shit creek

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

https://evolvepolitics.com/right-wing-newspapers-conveniently-omit-biggest-news-story-britain-front-pages/

As predicted, the newspapers for whom British journalism would surely die if they were forced to actually present the news buried this potentially deeply damaging story.

How upstanding of them

[Paul Calf]

https://twitter.com/jonsnowC4/status/953594368904122368

Haha. Hahaha. Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.

What the fuck?

[Twit 2]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/18/taxpayers-to-foot-200bn-bill-for-pfi-contracts-audit-office

[biggytitbo]

Appetently written before the carillion collapse, an audit office report describes what a catastrophic waste of taxpayers money pfi has been over 25 years https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/18/taxpayers-to-foot-200bn-bill-for-pfi-contracts-audit-office

[greencalx]

And Private Eye has been saying that for the 20 years I've been reading it.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I'm still fascinated by May's attempt to attack Corbyn for Labour's use of PFI, and indeed anything that went on under New Labour.

[Buelligan]

It's about priorities, just as the priority for framing and placing contracts for public works has been dogma, cronyism and keeping the bad news off the balance sheet, the priority here is to make sure Labour is smeared. 

Ludicrous as it seems, after all the screeching about how mad unpredictable Corbyn and Labour under Corbyn would be.  How completely different to Blair brand tory Labour and the stone cold fact that Corbyn, in the past and now, has opposed PFIs, the priority is to share the blame, spread the smear and not to take any responsibility, whatever the reality of the situation may be.

This is not and never has been about reality.

[biggytitbo]

The motivation for this disaster appears to be a mix of the usual cronyism and private sector profiteering (no doubt there's a revolving door between government and many of these firms), but also this desire to keep expenditure off the balance sheet. The solution to effectively toss these projects over to an incredibly complex and poor value hire purchase agreement is completely unnecessary considering the government is perfect able to simply issue interest free infrastructure bonds to pay for hospitals, roads, schools etc. They just choose not to do this because this goes against the neo-liberal consensus that always puts the interest of banks and corporations before everything else, because you know they're magic and nothing can ever be achieved without them and in fact our entire civilization would collapse if they didn't all have more yachts and mansions at our expense.

[Buelligan]

[biggytitbo]

Just because we had the same opinion!


Anyway, I wonder how well those tory smears about Blair/Brown labour actually land when aimed at Corbyn? May keeps doing it, despite knowing full well Corbyn opposed most of the stuff from the New Labour era. Why doesnt Corbyn relentlessly point out his party is not the same as then?

[MoonDust]

Why doesnt Corbyn relentlessly point out his party is not the same as then?

I agree that he should, but...

At the risk of turning this into a Labour thread, I imagine that a) Corbyn is still a little delusional that there can be unity between the left and the Blairites and b) there's still a substantial amount of centrist/right-wingers who could deal some blows if they feel it necessary.

Either scenario, saying openly "we're not the same party as we were under Blair/Brown" will have the people in the PLP who would rather keep the Tories in power than allow Corbyn in Number 10 kick up a right stink.

I'm telling ye, all the back-stabbing and plotting against Corbyn a couple of years ago hasn't gone away. They're just biding their time for the right opportunity.

[Buelligan]

Why doesnt Corbyn relentlessly point out his party is not the same as then?

Obviously I can't speak for El Corbo but if I had to guess it's about letting them dilute the message. 

If you allow your opponent in a debate to distract from the main issue - which is the criminal waste of public money that PFI produce, seemingly, without fail - there is a danger your audience (in this case, the electorate) stops concentrating on the issue you need them to understand and your point is lost in petty argument (we see this very occasionally here). 

Others can raise the obvious, Corbyn should keep on message.

[biggytitbo]

I just wonder if it remotely plays well for them, since they keep using it - May at PMs questions every week? It could just be a reflex action as thats the default mode for political debate, to attack your opponents record on the same subject, but I imagine they do internal polling and stuff so have an idea now effectively it lands. But surely most people recognise Corbyn is a break from the New Labour side of the party?

[gilbertharding]

Why doesnt Corbyn relentlessly point out his party is not the same as then?

He doesn't need to.

As has been said, everyone who wants to think 'it's not the same party' already thinks that.

And the people who want to think 'it's still the same party' should be allowed to continue to think that, too.

Neither of these groups should be alienated from voting Labour at the next opportunity - and the important thing to lots of these people isn't whether or not the Labour Party is the same or different from 1997  - but whether it's the same or different from the Conservative party.

[gilbertharding]

(we see this very occasionally here). 

Oh boy, do we ever?

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

https://evolvepolitics.com/another-major-government-contractor-on-the-brink-after-90-share-price-collapse-and-debt-doubling/

Interserve wobbling

Interserve's debt almost doubled from £274m in 2016 to £513m at the end of 2017. An underestimation of the costs involved in a public-private partnership contract to provide waste-to-energy services, which saw the corporation raise its provision on one such project in Glasgow from £70m to £195m, has badly affected it.

And in further deeply worrying news, the corporation's share price has plummeted from 717p in 2014 to just 63p in December, leading to serious discussions with its lenders over the firm's remaining financial options.

[Johnny Yesno]

I'm telling ye, all the back-stabbing and plotting against Corbyn a couple of years ago hasn't gone away. They're just biding their time for the right opportunity.

Indeed:

Carillion may have gone bust, but outsourcing is a powerful public good - John McTernan

[Buelligan]

What a terrible cunt.  This is the Labour "supporter" who writes for the Telegraph and argued in that august organ that tax avoidance is an expression of basic British freedoms in response to Corbyn's call for an investigation into Cameron's offshore "earnings". 

Now he's trying to posit that Carillion's failure is the evidence that it was giving the taxpayer value for money (fuck the thousands of ordinary people who worked for it and now don't, fuck the small businesses that haven't been paid).  He says

If the directors had driven exploitative bargains with the public sector, they would be driving round in Maseratis rather than polishing their CVs

Richard Howson, Carillion's former chief executive's remuneration package would enable him to drive around in Maseratis, one for weekdays, another for weekends in his Yorkshire Dales mansion or trips to his six bedroom ski chalet in the Alps. Howson earned £1.5m in 2016, including £591,000 in bonuses. He continued to work for the firm until last autumn after stepping down as chief executive and is due to stay on the payroll, receiving his £660,000 salary and £28,000 benefits for another year, until October 2018.  And he's not the only one.

McTernan's next move, I suspect, will be to suggest that Labour's loss of Scotland, a country he branded as narrow and racist (he controlled media and policy for Scottish Labour during the campaign for the 2015 general election) is also evidence of success. 

The man's an absolute fucking shower and a true enemy to socialists everywhere.

[Zetetic]

Carillion may have gone bust, but outsourcing is a powerful public good - John McTernan

An overwhelmingly stupid piece, and I say that as someone who think that commissioning has its place.

And last but not least, we have had a bargain – we have paid substantially less for services than they cost to deliver. How can we be sure about that? Again, it is the collapse that is the proof. If the directors had driven exploitative bargains with the public sector, they would be driving round in Maseratis rather than polishing their CVs and wondering how to explain their catastrophic failure to future prospective employers.

?

Mr Howson, who enjoyed £1.5 million in pay and perks in 2016, stayed on in senior management for several months before leaving the company in the autumn [of 2017]. Carillion is continuing to pay his £660,000 salary and £28,000 benefits until October [2018].

...new director of engineering and technical services company Wood Group. ... Wood Group has just won a lucrative contract to carry out inspections at the UK government's new Hinkley Point C nuclear power plant.

Shareholders will have lost a lot of money.

Certainly it's plausible that relatively small investors will have incurred significant losses (and I'm not under any illusion that these will still be very wealth individuals) but of course the wealthiest will tend to be able to buy sufficiently good financial advice and they'll have made huge amounts shorting the stock over the last few years.

[Buelligan]

Come on Zetetic, let's you and I go and snuff this mother.  Both of those mothers, if you like.  My dander is up.

[Zetetic]

Bollocks, apologies if the Howson stuff was in your post and I managed to skim past, vision clouded with red mist.

[Buelligan]

Red mist is just what's required.  Let's do this.

[Zetetic]

If you are allied to procurement (rather than direct public-sector provision) then you can still substantially improve it morally and politically - aggressively favour co-ops, require extra-legal commitments to minimum tax or efforts like the Fair Tax Mark, incorporate collective (across the whole public sector) risk to limit exposure to a single company.

[pancreas]

I think what we should do is just let the red mist descend. Who's with me?!

[bgmnts]

I fucking hate all these twats and I want them all to get a specific kind of cancer that slowly kills rich bastard cunty fucks.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/18/taxpayers-to-foot-200bn-bill-for-pfi-contracts-audit-office

A cannonball into the wall of the establishment's defences and a counterpoint to anyone challenging Labour on borrowing.

[pancreas]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/18/taxpayers-to-foot-200bn-bill-for-pfi-contracts-audit-office

A cannonball into the wall of the establishment's defences and a counterpoint to anyone challenging Labour on borrowing.

Hey Shoulders! Do you want to go swimming with me?