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March 28, 2024, 09:28:35 PM

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If Chris Morris farted, would you say it wasn't as good as the last one he did?

Started by Seymour Clufley, January 18, 2005, 09:54:40 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Chris Morris has just farted. You remark:

"That wasn't as good as the last one he did."
6 (16.7%)
"That was even better than the last one he did."
0 (0%)
"That was the best one yet!"
0 (0%)
"What a bad fart. Even more obnoxious than The Green Wing."
1 (2.8%)
"You could hear the influence of his new Warp buddies in that fart."
4 (11.1%)
"I actually think Charlie Brooker had more to do with that fart than Morris."
6 (16.7%)
"How fucking outrageous you are, Chris. Now release a stereo version."
3 (8.3%)
"Oh thank you, God! The history of comedy has led up to this sublime moment!"
2 (5.6%)
"Can anyone else smell an outstayed welcome? How clever am I?"
0 (0%)
"I'm Victor Lewis Smith and I'm saying NOTHING."
14 (38.9%)

Total Members Voted: 36

Voting closed: January 18, 2005, 10:07:12 PM

I'm not saying you neccessarily have to accentuate the positive, if you're weary of how this project might turn out that's fair enough.  What I do object to, however, is the tone of some of the negative views of it, that presume to know everything.  I think Jonny Yesno pretty much hit the mark for me when he said that he feels he's been told what's funny and what isn't, almost to the point of being belittled for refusing to be a misery.

The Mumbler

Actually, I suspect I have to say "Peep Show" for things I came round to in a big way.  Post-watershed C4 sitcom with various people who've been mildly irritating in other post-watershed sitcoms.  Written by a duo who'd written sketches for Smack The Pony and Revolver?  With Phil Clarke and Tristram Shapeero at the controls?  Posters with long memories may recall that I slagged off the first episode of series 2 when it started.  God, how wrong I was.

Yet, having just gorged myself on the Series 1 DVD over the last few days, and rewatching Series 2, it's my favourite thing on television at this precise moment.

You can't always write things off before you see them.  But Nathan Barley shows all the signs of something mildly dull, rather than disastrously awful.

Emergency Lalla Ward Ten

Quote from: "Partridge's Love Child"What I do object to, however, is the tone of some of the negative views of it, that presume to know everything.  I think Jonny Yesno pretty much hit the mark for me when he said that he feels he's been told what's funny and what isn't, almost to the point of being belittled for refusing to be a misery.

But aren't comments like that a reaction to the other side of the coin you get in the mainstream media, where journalists constantly tell you why something's *good*? 'The Office is fantastic because it doesn't have a laugh track' etc. Reviewers are always lecturing us about what works and what doesn't, even though they don't know any more than we do.

Time Out announces this week that According to Bex's problem lies solely in its 'old-fashionedness', for example. Balls, of course, but they say it with gusto (just like my use of 'of course' just then). In a couple of weeks, they'll be full of praise about Nathan Barley, using all the usual cliches. Do people find this less irritating than the anti-NB stuff on this thread? Why?

I've never understood why people see views on comedy as having an 'I know more than you do, you're an idiot' undertone. They're obviously just opinions. Is it the boldness that annoys people? Do we need more 'IMHO's?

Emergency Lalla Ward Ten

Quote from: "The Mumbler"I slagged off the first episode of series 2 when it started.  God, how wrong I was.

Do you actually think you were 'wrong' though? Wasn't it just that you'd initially dismissed it based on a superficial viewing, like me with Seinfeld?

The Mumbler

Read Alison Graham's RT preview of The Rotter's Club, starting next week on BBC2.  Sounds terribly positive, terribly enthusiastic - yet I don't think she's seen a frame of it, and has just put her own spin on a press release.  See what you think:

"It's taken television a long time to have a go at dramatising anything by Jonathan Coe, a master plotter and one of our most gifted novelists.  It's hardly surprising - Coe's novels are breathtakingly intricate, with stories so brilliantly woven together, just a stitch out of place in a clumsy dramatisation could lead them to unravel.

But on the evidence of this first episode in a three-part dramatisation of perhaps his "easiest" book, The Rotters' Club, Dick Clement and Ian La Frenais (no slouches themselves as writers) have done Coe proud.

Anyone who remembers just how grim life in Britain was in 1974, epsecially anyone who did some of their growing up in that bleak year, will find something to enjoy here.  This was the year of power cuts, just three TV channels, the three-day week and all-powerful trade unions.  It was also a black year of mainland IRA bombings.

The story centres on a handful of Birmingham families, though at its heart is a bunch of bright boys whose aspirations are set against a backdrop of social upheaval.  It's hard to sum up, and this is hardly mass-audience stuff.  But if you're new to Coe, stick with it..."

**********

Like I say, I don't think she's seen it.  Coe's "easiest" book?  The one that's most visible in the shops, more like.  I think Coe's an excellent writer, a blender of actuality with complex characters, but Graham doesn't really explain why.  She merely lists some ingredients of 1974 which she could have got from anywhere, and ends up with the classic "hard to sum up" conclusion.  

Has anyone else noticed that the phrase "preview tapes were unavailable" is less and less apparent in TV reviews these days?  Whether this is to do with more preview tapes being made available to critics, or (more likely, I suspect) TV critics want to fill the column full of watery opinions in place of concrete analysis, I'm not sure.  But I've noticed the "no preview tapes" phrase is slowly dying away...

The Mumbler

Quote from: "Emergency Lalla Ward Ten"
Quote from: "The Mumbler"I slagged off the first episode of series 2 when it started.  God, how wrong I was.

Do you actually think you were 'wrong' though? Wasn't it just that you'd initially dismissed it based on a superficial viewing, like me with Seinfeld?

It's hard to say.  On first glance, I was reminded of Los Dos Bros or The Estate Agents.  Maybe it's easier to form a false/wrong opinion of something when you're relatively unfamiliar with the people in it.  You can decide in a matter of a few minutes these days whether something with Coogan in it is any good or not (usually the latter nowadays), but when it's someone whom you haven't thought about a lot, following their career path over several years, it's much harder to make a judgement so quickly.  

Was a familiarity with L&H's work at the heart of your anxiety over the quality of TMWRNJ?

Neil

Quote from: "Partridge's Love Child"That particular instance was me, and I responded to that accusation in the Men Behaving Badly thread, so won't repeat it again.

Wasn't around for that but have responded now.  I do think that has completely under-mined your argument to be honest, we're both doing much the same thing, except perhaps we're actually being fairer by comparing like with like, so to speak...?

QuoteI think what grates quite so much with this subject is the level of disgust that has been heaped upon the project as soon as we first heard about it, and this has escalated.  Now, here's a confession, I'm not actually expecting Nathan Barley to be that much cop either, but what I am prepared to do is push those reservations to one side until we've had chance to look at it.  

Well here's what I find really annoying about the anti-negative posters, this suggestion that we desperately want to dislike a new show when it goes out.  That is implying that we will get more enjoyment out of a show failing then suceeding.  Clearly this is a laughable notion, this is a forum full of comedy enthusiasts who very obviously want good comedy to watch and chat about.  Everyone here wants to see Morris back on form again.

QuoteVery little information is known about this

That's not true at all!  We've had leaked gag set-ups which prompted nasty emails from bitchy busy-bodies, cast details, a leaked press release, tons and tons of info from Trisha Goddard who virtually gave a running commentary while watching some of the shows. We know that it contains websites called, bumph.uk and suchlike.  We know that it has the fucking Boosh and Richard Ayoade in it.  If you look, you will find we all know lots about this show, the problem is that none of it seems very funny (the only thing that made me actually chuckle was the webcam hairdresser.)

QuoteThat strikes me as me as sneering know-it-allism in the extreme.  Yes, My Wrongs wasn't much cop, yes (some people thought that) Brass Eye Special was a poor imitation of it's original series, but can the naysayers not hold at least a small part of their toffee-nosed preview open to the possibility that it will be good?  I've yet to witness that.

Was it sneering know-it-allism when you made that comment about According To Bex before it went out?  Don't you just look like a rather large hypocrite here?  

Expecting something to be shit and wanting something to be great are two entirely different concepts which can co-exist side-by-side!

Emergency Lalla Ward Ten

What infuriates me is when people enliken any kind of criticism of a popular/fashionable thing to the actions of a Manic Street Preachers fan who 'doesn't like their little cult being owned by the great unwashed'. This ignores countless examples throughout history of comedians/bands/TV shows being excellent in their embryonic days but terrible once they become famous, so what exactly is wrong with preferring someone's 'early years'?

Then you get people who try and pre-empt this as inevitable - 'Uh-oh, the backlash has started!!!' Which translates as 'They're not criticising the follow-up because it's rubbish - they're doing it because the British can't stand success, right lads?'.

But what infuriates me more is when people are only comfortable slagging off a popular thing *after* everyone else has done it. The obvious example is Blur's Country House - at the time, it was only the old Blur fans who said 'This isn't very good', and they were promptly called bitter fanboy snobs as a result. Now fucking everyone uses Country House as a shorthand for 'crap record' because they know they won't get any arguments put in their way. I believe the word is 'Pah!'.

Emergency Lalla Ward Ten

Quote from: "Alison Graham"

Anyone who remembers just how grim life in Britain was in 1974, This was the year of power cuts, just three TV channels, the three-day week and all-powerful trade unions.

Yeah, unions - those lazy, lefty troublemakers! Viva apathy, eh girls?

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: "Peking O"If we all took the 'each to their own' route this forum would be an incredibly dull read.

Fair point. Cultural relativism taken to its logical conclusion does mean it's pointless to say anything about anything. On the other hand, the string of unfounded criticisms (and, let's face it, they are unfounded as nobody's seen the show yet) under the prejudiced "still-born" heading got tedious pretty quickly too. I suppose it was hilarious if you were in agreement.

What bothers me is that there doesn't seem any room for debate. For some reason which totally baffles me Charlie Brooker is shit. I haven't read a decent explanation why but he just is. I don't get it - I read his stuff. I laugh. There's your gut reaction, Lalla.

Equally baffling is why anyone finds CYE funny. I don't get that either. Okay, I'm basing my opinion on one series but I watched it all because the VWs made me, and I couldn't figure out what there was to laugh at. Now there must be something but I have to accept that I can't see it. It's a bit of a relativist viewpoint but it saves getting into dull circular arguments caused by differing tastes.

Quote from: "ELWT"Time Out announces this week that According to Bex's problem lies solely in its 'old-fashionedness', for example. Balls, of course, but they say it with gusto (just like my use of 'of course' just then). In a couple of weeks, they'll be full of praise about Nathan Barley, using all the usual cliches. Do people find this less irritating than the anti-NB stuff on this thread? Why?

You're right, of course. It is irritating but perhaps Time Out should be the target seeing as the article you refer to has actually been published and can be evaluated as rubbish.

Quote from: "ELWT"I've never understood why people see views on comedy as having an 'I know more than you do, you're an idiot' undertone. They're obviously just opinions. Is it the boldness that annoys people? Do we need more 'IMHO's?

Urggh! No. Not IMHOs. But I do think that keeping in mind that comedy is ultimately subjective helps views on comedy have a little less of an 'I know more than you do, you're an idiot' undertone.

The Mumbler

If Graham had actually read the book she seems to regard as "breathtakingly intricate", she'd know that Coe's opinion on trade unions is nothing like hers.  Indeed, she reminds me of the dreadful columnist character Hilary Winshaw in Coe's fourth novel, What A Carve Up!

The Mumbler

I have been known to laugh at something Charlie Brooker's written - I always cite "Fozzie Bear's Eisteddfod of Doom" from TV Go Home - but it absolutely screams "see, even I can be a TV critic".  

TV critics don't need to know their subject that well.  They don't need to know much about its history, or about how it works.  All they have to do is write something that equates with what the "man/woman in the street/on the bus" might say.  And that, I suggest, lies at the heart of what Brooker writes: a kind of intermittently amusing but completely ephemeral thinking.  It doesn't matter if you've never watched the programme he's writing about - indeed, it seems to help.  Because a lot of it merely bears out the philosophy of TV Go Home - that no matter how ridiculous an invented title or format might be, the reality of the TV industry will soon better it.  How else can you explain the title "Michael Jackson's Boys" (a documentary on Channel 4 next week)?  Apart from "a good reason for the programme makers to be beaten up".

21 people have actually voted on that poll! And the majority claim to be victor lewis smith!

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: "The Mumbler"the philosophy of TV Go Home - that no matter how ridiculous an invented title or format might be, the reality of the TV industry will soon better it.

I thought that was the reason he's pretty much given up on TVGoHome, not the philosophy of it. Doesn't he cite Touch the Truck as his first inkling that TVGoHome was showing it's age.

The Mumbler

Screenburn's still going though, isn't it?  And its meat and drink is the same kind of disbelieving but obsessive viewing of reality formats.  He rarely examines comedy, or drama, or well-made documentaries.  For the most part, it's the garish Wife Swap mentality - those are the watercooler moments, and Brooker would rather survey those than aim any higher.

Emergency Lalla Ward Ten

Quote from: "The Mumbler"
Was a familiarity with L&H's work at the heart of your anxiety over the quality of TMWRNJ?

No, I just thought that doing a Richard and Judy parody (which is what I thought it would be) was a terrible idea - plebby, hollow, pointless, out of date. Then I saw how peripheral the R&J conceit actually was.

Also, L&H had started to annoy me by that time, having tedious, industry-pleasing views on comedy rather than refreshing ones. The pre-titles opener ('And this...is Top of the Pops!') confirmed in an instant, however, that they hadn't lost it.

Emergency Lalla Ward Ten

The only time Brooker has ever made me laugh was when he talked about the phrase 'My Documents' on computers: 'Who else's documents could they be? Todd Carty's?'

But if I had to sum up my problem with his writing, it's that it's both heavy-handed and slight at the same time. It's like being bashed on the head with a sponge mallet.

Morrisfan82

Quote from: "Emergency Lalla Ward Ten"I've never understood why people see views on comedy as having an 'I know more than you do, you're an idiot' undertone. They're obviously just opinions. Is it the boldness that annoys people? Do we need more 'IMHO's?
Interestingly, a friendship of mine was obliterated recently on the basis of this very phenomenon.

The Mumbler

Quote from: "Emergency Lalla Ward Ten"
Quote from: "The Mumbler"
Was a familiarity with L&H's work at the heart of your anxiety over the quality of TMWRNJ?

No, I just thought that doing a Richard and Judy parody (which is what I thought it would be) was a terrible idea - plebby, hollow, pointless, out of date. Then I saw how peripheral the R&J conceit actually was.

Also, L&H had started to annoy me by that time, having tedious, industry-pleasing views on comedy rather than refreshing ones. The pre-titles opener ('And this...is Top of the Pops!') confirmed in an instant, however, that they hadn't lost it.


I was never very keen on that title, I must admit.  Possibly because I felt it froze Stewart Lee out a little.   I'm sure he found it funny, but there you go.

Parodies of daytime telly are just about always rubbish and boring though.  That's why Peter's guide to small-hours TV in the Fist Of Fun book was so much more refreshing (This Morning and Trisha - easy peasy, but no-one else as far as I know has ever referenced Gaz Top Non Stop or You're Booked!).

alan strang

Quote from: "The Mumbler"Parodies of daytime telly are just about always rubbish and boring though.  That's why Peter's guide to small-hours TV in the Fist Of Fun book was so much more refreshing (This Morning and Trisha - easy peasy, but no-one else as far as I know has ever referenced Gaz Top Non Stop or You're Booked!).

Or 'Leee's Place'!

Emergency Lalla Ward Ten

One of my dreams, a few nights back:

C4 ANNOUNCER: Exclusive now to 4, new comedy from controversial satirist Chris Morris as blah blah, strong language from the outset, etc.

OPENING TITLES OF THE OFFICE.

HALFWAY THROUGH, MORRIS CRASHES THROUGH THE BLUE SCREEN A LA KENNY EVERETT. HE HAS TWO GOLDEN GLOBES UP HIS ARSE. HE GRINS TO CAMERA.

MORRIS: Hello, I'm God-like genius Christopher fucking Morris. (REMOVES GUN FROM POCKET, FIRES TWO SHOTS OFFSCREEN) Take that Brooker, you too Ayoade. This...is proper comedy!

THE NEW CHRIS MORRIS SHOW BEGINS PROPERLY

See, I'm only half joking. The above is exactly what he *should* do (and, ten years ago, it wouldn't have been that ludicrous anyway), but can you imagine any of his current coterie suggesting it? Can you picture the blank looks you'd get?

Oh, if he did the above it would make me *so* happy. It would be an 'And this...is Top of the Pops!' moment.

Godzilla Bankrolls

Quote from: "Emergency Lalla Ward Ten"MORRIS: This...is proper comedy!

Sweet.

Quote from: "Emergency Lalla Ward Ten"The above is exactly what he *should* do.

Tell you what, I'll pass that instruction on and see whether or not it's obeyed.

Godzilla Bankrolls

Quote from: "Charlie Brooker"
Quote from: "Emergency Lalla Ward Ten"The above is exactly what he *should* do.

Tell you what, I'll pass that instruction on and see whether or not it's obeyed.

Does Ayoade do what you tell him?

Neil

Quote from: "trisha goddard"
Quote from: "skibz"I'm just going to wait to see it, to be honest. As long as there are no 'monging' special effects, or obligatory jizzing scenes, it should be quite amusing... fingers crossed eh?

plenty of jizz

Really?

Oh... bum rape monkey spunk Christ trousers piss!

Quote from: "Emergency Lalla Ward Ten"it's both heavy-handed and slight at the same time. It's like being bashed on the head with a sponge mallet.

Was that intentionally meant to parody Brooker's writing?  Because if it was, it's spot on.  If it wasn't, I still found it funny - but then I like Screenburn and TVGoHome.  Unnovations was balls and his TV shows thus far have been a crock of shit, mind.

Hemorrhoid Shark

I have to admit I used to enjoy TVGoHome, but (and I've said this before), Brooker has really lost all right to comment on the state of TV since he sold out to Endemol (makers of Big Brother, Changing Rooms etc).

Info here: http://www.zeppotron.com/faq.html

Since then, his company have been responsible for creating, um, The People's Book of Records and The Cowboy Trap, and still he "rants" on in Screen Burn about all these dreadful, dumbed-down reality shows. MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE SOLD OUT TO THEM THEN, YOU HYPOCRITICAL FUCKING CUNT.

Sorry, couldn't restrain myself. It really was the most obscene deal for the self-styled "angry man of TV crtiticism" to even consider. It's like Morris going to work for Sky News, or Ian Hislop accepting a job as Tony Blair's new spin doctor. He can go and rant himself into the grave for all I care, because he's obviously talking out of his arse.

alan strang

Careful how many times you use the phrase 'sold out' about Brooker - it'll only be redefined as a cliche and used against you when the fat really starts to fly.

TJ

Well I went to HMV at lunchtime and they told me they had no Charlie Brookers left.


EDIT: Just been told that if I wanted a Charlie Brooker, then I should have been prepared to pay as much as the person who was prepared to pay the highest price on ebay was prepared to pay, and if I wasn't prepared to pay that then I'm a sad snivelling wanker who sits indoors every night crying because other people have more money than me, and should get with the times (ie 1986) and embrace Thatcherism, grandad!

Johnny Yesno

Ah. I hadn't realised he'd been involved with Ban This Filth.
*Shakes head*

That's one point conceded to the naysayers.