Comedy you liked but now think is problematical.

[Sebastian Cobb]

'quilt' always amused me as a scouse insult (when meaning idiot, rather than gay).

[FredNurke]

Can't find any evidence that the phrase 'individual needs child' has ever been used. And I looked for nearly a minute.

It's possible that 'divvy' comes from 'individual'; this appears to be the folk-etymology in Liverpool (although the earliest attestation I can find, in the OED, is from Lincolnshire). 'Individual' often has pejorative overtones when applied to a particular person, so it's not a huge semantic leap. I can't think of an easy route from the other 'divvy' (dividend), but who knows?

[Oops! Wrong Planet]

It's possible that 'divvy' comes from 'individual'; this appears to be the folk-etymology in Liverpool (although the earliest attestation I can find, in the OED, is from Lincolnshire). 'Individual' often has pejorative overtones when applied to a particular person, so it's not a huge semantic leap. I can't think of an easy route from the other 'divvy' (dividend), but who knows?

Yes, I'd put money on it being derived from 'individual' when it's an insult, rather than 'dividend'. Divi/divvy as an abbreviation for dividend had a positive connotation - a Co-op dividend for example was something sought after.

[up_the_hampipe]

I heard someone say 'cretin' was offensive/taboo a while back. I know it has a medical origin, but thought it was fairly eroded much like 'idiot'.

Only a retard would consider that offensive.

[itsfredtitmus]

Alright gervais calm down

[goinggoinggone]

'In Bed With Me Dinner'. I'm thinking of the 'my son is a grass' one. That one really smacked of punching down. Laughing at the shattered lives of the underclass.

Personally, I was bothered by the constant Welsh bashing on the show.  It wasn't used as satire or any kind of commentray, it was just straight up sneering.  I know he said in an interview that the reason he did it was something to do with his sister being born on the Bristol/Wales boarder, but that aurgument never felt just to me.  There was one moment where he made fun of Merthyr Tydfil that felt particularly cruel.  If more people had seen it, I think people would have complained, but that's the thing... In Bed With Medinner was a late-night show that few people watched.

[itsfredtitmus]

'quilt' always amused me as a scouse insult (when meaning idiot, rather than gay).

never heard this one before

[Lisa Jesusandmarychain]

How is " individual " an insult ?

[kalowski]

I started writing my post before yours was posted, sorry. At least we agree on the main point, she wants a good hammering every now and then, and she's got the control over when that happens. It's almost post-post-feminist.

It's alright. I'm just looking for an excuse to use my favourite Goodfellas quote.

[kalowski]

I heard someone say 'cretin' was offensive/taboo a while back. I know it has a medical origin, but thought it was fairly eroded much like 'idiot'.

Yes, I saw a documentary hosted by Jo Brand on the historical treatment of a certain group of French people with an illness. The word cretin is derived from where they lived.
At the end of the programme she actually said, "I'll never use that word again..." and looked quite devastated by the story.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretinism

[Dr Rock]

It's alright. I'm just looking for an excuse to use my favourite Goodfellas quote.

Haha, I totally didn't get that reference or remember it from the film (which I've watchedumpteen times, and it's the classic Spider Gets Shot bit, so how have I never twigged it before? Great line indeed). Just found the clip, cheers:

https://youtu.be/E4VxewepbYk

[Sebastian Cobb]

How is " individual " an insult ?

'individual needs' innit, like 'special needs' and spesh.

The terminology is a game of cat and mouse given children's unique ability to turn things into an insult.

[ieXush2i]

The character of Tim is deliberately purile at times. When he says get off me you bummer it's to illustrate his childishness. I think the landlady nods to him and says to Daisy something along the lines of "Why go out for burger when you can have steak at home" then Tim says something childish to puncture that bubble. It's a basic comedy trope.

Doesn't Tim admit to haveinga wank while Daisy is sleeping near him in the same room?

[checkoutgirl]

Doesn't Tim admit to haveinga wank while Daisy is sleeping near him in the same room?

Yes. While watching a bongo video. I supposed that's rape now as well, is it?

[ieXush2i]

Indeed, claiming something like Blazing Saddles is now problamatic is pretty silly when it's a period film. The attitudes from that period havent changed even though ours might have.

There is the "French Mistake" sequence, which as funny as I find it in its absurdity it's hard to deny the homophobia underpinning it.

[ieXush2i]

Yes. While watching a bongo video. I supposed that's rape now as well, is it?

It could be a perfect example of how much of a cunt Tim is, it could be seen as problematic, it could be both, it could be an expression of how comfortable/co-dependent Tim and Daisy are. But I don't think its a lovely thing to do, no.

[ieXush2i]

'quilt' always amused me as a scouse insult (when meaning idiot, rather than gay).

See also "melt" and "crab"

[Dr Rock]

'individual needs' innit, like 'special needs' and spesh.

The terminology is a game of cat and mouse given children's unique ability to turn things into an insult.

But I can't find any evidence that 'individual needs' was ever used as a term like 'special needs' is. It seems to be used sometimes to indicate, well, individual needs of children but not because they are divs, but because every child is different, etc.

[checkoutgirl]

You make a really good point - but even so there are some things that I used to think were fine that I now don't like.  The example I mentioned earlier of Tim from the Office talking about the 'div kid' (notwithstanding that it's a funny line with respect to the point he's making, and made funnier by Gareth's reply) probably wasn't meant to be social commentary about Tim behaving politically incorrectly.  It was just a character saying something that was probably borderline OK at the time - I don't remember it jarring when I watched it originally - but now has most definitely crossed the border for most people.  I'd also say that it doesn't make me feel badly towards the writers and performers - none of us ever claim to predict the future, do we (except for those 'time travellers' in the Sun today), and I probably would have cheerfully said 'div kid', and worse variants, myself back in the 90s.  (Some of my colleagues still do.  I'm a teacher.)

I agree with what you're saying. I should have specified that I really was talking about Homer's Phobia and Spaced and to a certain extent Superbad. I'd have to rewatch Superbad to be sure though.

My reading of "problematical" is when you feel really uneasy because the protagonist has turned out to be a sex pervert (CK, Allen) and to a certain extent when it's really quite politically incorrect. But the Homer's Phobia example seems very spurious, as if the person completely missed the anti-homophobia message and took it at face value. Similarly Tim Bisley is supposed to be juvenile in that moment to deflate the idea that Daisy is lucky to have him.

The Superbad stuff, well, as Noodle Lizard said, teens throughout the land have been drinking and screwing for centuries. A girl making a mistake because she was a bit tipsy isn't the same as rape. Female comedians have made millions of jokes along those lines. It's almost like Big Pants and other people are moving the line of sexual misconduct up to anything other than getting a written contract before all sexual activity is definitely rape. Oh and the man isn't signing the contract, he's drawing it up and presenting it. It's the woman who has to sign it, and she must take a breathaliser before she does it to prove blood alcohol level so she is definitely capable of making her own decision.

Rape and sexual assault are horrific acts that are cheapened by this puritanical pearl clutching.

[Kane Jones]

He only says all this stuff to try and get laid anyway. Like Ben Elton.

"Men, eh girls? Bunch of wankers. Apart from me, that is."

[rectorofstiffkey]

Yeah, Collins has it as prison slang. They, Chambers and Oxford define divvy/div as a person who's foolish or stupid. It's not flagged "offensive" as 'mong' is, for example.

Oh dear, I seem to have embarrassed myself by taking offence at something that perhaps doesn't have the derivation that I thought.  I had no idea of the origin, but I guess I mentally filed it along with all of the other words (Joey, etc) that were really common back in my schooldays, and thought that it had a special needs connection.  Clearly, I've now become one of the 'Professionally Offended'; I'll have to practise my tutting...

[checkoutgirl]

He only says all this stuff to try and get laid anyway. Like Ben Elton.

"Men, eh girls? Bunch of wankers. Apart from me, that is."

"I'm a radical feminist. I think you've gotta be these days, to get your end away" - Paul Calf

[rectorofstiffkey]

I agree with what you're saying. I should have specified that I really was talking about Homer's Phobia and Spaced and to a certain extent Superbad. I'd have to rewatch Superbad to be sure though.

My reading of "problematical" is when you feel really uneasy because the protagonist has turned out to be a sex pervert (CK, Allen) and to a certain extent when it's really quite politically incorrect. But the Homer's Phobia example seems very spurious, as if the person completely missed the anti-homophobia message and took it at face value. Similarly Tim Bisley is supposed to be juvenile in that moment to deflate the idea that Daisy is lucky to have him.

The Superbad stuff, well, as Noodle Lizard said, teens throughout the land have been drinking and screwing for centuries. A girl making a mistake because she was a bit tipsy isn't the same as rape. Female comedians have made millions of jokes along those lines. It's almost like Big Pants and other people are moving the line of sexual misconduct up to anything other than getting a written contract before all sexual activity is definitely rape. Oh and the man isn't signing the contract, he's drawing it up and presenting it. It's the woman who has to sign it, and she must take a breathaliser before she does it to prove blood alcohol level so she is definitely capable of making her own decision.

Rape and sexual assault are horrific acts that are cheapened by this puritanical pearl clutching.

Totally agree with your Spaced and Homer's Phobia examples: we're all meant to see that the joke is on Tim and Homer.  Comedy would be very thin on the ground if the characters were only allowed to behave well!  (We would still have the Vicar of Dibley, though.  Apart from all of those times that she makes fun of her elderly and vulnerable parishioners).

[checkoutgirl]

It could be a perfect example of how much of a cunt Tim is, it could be seen as problematic, it could be both, it could be an expression of how comfortable/co-dependent Tim and Daisy are. But I don't think its a lovely thing to do, no.

But in that instance Daisy is essentially furniture. She doesn't figure in the act in any way. He was furtively pleasuring himself while stimulated by pornography. The risk was her waking up while he was doing it. I don't think that counts as shitty behaviour. It's a grey area at the most. Especially in a comedy programme which has to mine some unusual places to create funny material, because that's its job.

[checkoutgirl]

We would still have the Vicar of Dibley, though.  Apart from all of those times that she makes fun of her elderly and vulnerable parishioners

She makes fun of pensioners! Well!! I am very uncomfortable. This is disgraceful behaviour.

[rectorofstiffkey]

She makes fun of pensioners! Well!! I am very uncomfortable. This is disgraceful behaviour.

:-) and passes out drunk on the sofa, and lusts after TV producers played by Peter Capaldi.  As you rightly say - disgraceful!!!

[ieXush2i]

A girl making a mistake because she was a bit tipsy isn't the same as rape. Female comedians have made millions of jokes along those lines. It's almost like Big Pants and other people are moving the line of sexual misconduct up to anything other than getting a written contract before all sexual activity is definitely rape. Oh and the man isn't signing the contract, he's drawing it up and presenting it. It's the woman who has to sign it, and she must take a breathaliser before she does it to prove blood alcohol level so she is definitely capable of making her own decision.

Rape and sexual assault are horrific acts that are cheapened by this puritanical pearl clutching.

Nice strawmanning there. Not sure about the relevant US state law for Superbad, but incapacity to consent is considered under UK law and teenagers are far more open to peer pressure and inability to handle alcoholic intake responsibly when unsupervised (at least in countries without a sensible drinking culture).

I don't know where this nonsense about written contracts comes from. well, I do - reactionaries. Have none of these people ever had sex with someone who enthusiastically consented(ie was really into and up for it)? Or do they subscribe to the "lie back and think of England" mode of one-sided sex?

[ieXush2i]

But in that instance Daisy is essentially furniture. She doesn't figure in the act in any way. He was furtively pleasuring himself while stimulated by pornography. The risk was her waking up while he was doing it. I don't think that counts as shitty behaviour. It's a grey area at the most. Especially in a comedy programme which has to mine some unusual places to create funny material, because that's its job.

No, it's shitty behaviour objectively because it crosses a line in "real life", but it can still work within the context of the series.

"Daisy is essentially furniture", well, that's part of what makes it shitty behaviour.

[Jockice]

He only says all this stuff to try and get laid anyway. Like Ben Elton.

"Men, eh girls? Bunch of wankers. Apart from me, that is."

I've a theory as to why Ben Elton doesn't tell any racist or sexist jokes. It's cos he doesn't fucking know any. - Jerry Sadowitz.

[Oops! Wrong Planet]

Yeah, Collins has it as prison slang. They, Chambers and Oxford define divvy/div as a person who's foolish or stupid. It's not flagged "offensive" as 'mong' is, for example.

Oh dear, I seem to have embarrassed myself by taking offence at something that perhaps doesn't have the derivation that I thought.  I had no idea of the origin, but I guess I mentally filed it along with all of the other words (Joey, etc) that were really common back in my schooldays, and thought that it had a special needs connection.  Clearly, I've now become one of the 'Professionally Offended'; I'll have to practise my tutting...

Dictionaries don't flag it as 'offensive' because society in general doesn't seem to baulk at it. If it came back into common usage, and there was a movement against it, and it could be shown that it derived from an unpleasant source, dictionaries might have to reflect that. It could have started as a horrible insult of people with special needs, or it could have been meant in the milder sense of he's a one-off, some mothers do 'ave 'em, a bit barmy, which is how Stewart Lee seems to use it in the link I posted in the thread earlier.