Comedy you liked but now think is problematical.

[Satchmo Distel]

Bill Hicks' Goat Boy character might be too condoning of rapey desires.

[Glebe]

I've really gone off Jim Davidson lately.

[j_u_d_a_s]

Kermode's opinion was ludicrous, as if he watched a different film. What's problematic about Superbad? I reckon nothing.

It's a film where the two leads plan to get girls drunk enough to have sex with them.

Some of Bill Hicks' routines about single mums are a bit dodgy to me now, echoing the feral underclass shrieking of the 90s. But they came out of kicking against the pro-life sentiment of middle America so they can at least be justified in that context.

[Oops! Wrong Planet]

I've mentioned it before, but the homophobia in Fools and Horses is really nasty at points, and (in most instances) isn't framed clearly enough as being about the silliness of those views.

Also the "jaffa" bullying of Boycie's infertility. My dad was a massive OFAH fan, but his last words to me were about how hurtful he'd found watching those bits because he was never able to have any children himself.

[Dr Rock]

It's a film where the two leads plan to get girls drunk enough to have sex with them.

But learn that this is not the way to go about getting relationships or understanding of girls/women and change for the better.

It's also a film about a boy who gets picked up by the worst cops ever and has some mad adventures.

[j_u_d_a_s]

But learn that this is not the way to go about getting relationships or understanding of girls/women and change for the better.

It's also a film about a boy who gets picked up by the worst cops ever and has some mad adventures.

Ehhh even so, it's still a film asking you to sympathise with would be rapists.

[newbridge]

I thought the plot was that they want to get alcohol because they promised to get it to appear cool so that girls would think they were cool enough to have sex with them (and the film portrays them as idiots in any event)

A better candidate here would be Revenge of the Nerds, which portrays the protagonist raping someone as a clever victory.

[j_u_d_a_s]

I thought the plot was that they want to get alcohol because they promised to get it to appear cool so that girls would think they were cool enough to have sex with them (and the film portrays them as idiots in any event)

They literally say "we could be that mistake"  https://youtu.be/0cAgh8bWZN4
It's a bit of a have its cake and eat it movie too, only at the end does it suggest that maybe getting girls drunk to have sex with them is a bad move. They still get the girls at the end tho so really what have they learned?

[newbridge]

They literally say "we could be that mistake"  https://youtu.be/0cAgh8bWZN4
It's a bit of a have its cake and eat it movie too, only at the end does it suggest that maybe getting girls drunk to have sex with them is a bad move. They still get the girls at the end tho so really what have they learned?

Yeah but the end is, in fact, part of the movie.

[j_u_d_a_s]

Yeah but the end is, in fact, part of the movie.

It spends most of its running time sympathising with them tho?

[Dr Rock]

They learn that having sex with drunk girls isn't right, both could have sex with a drunk girl and realise it would be wrong and don't do it -  and thus they mature, and are no longer the fuckwits they have been portrayed as they go through various adventures to get the booze, which is the main objective. Then they 'get the girls', but the end suggests getting a girl involves accompanying them while they shop a lot more than getting any sex.... and that's ok.

I legitimately think the film is a moral tale.

[j_u_d_a_s]

They learn that having sex with drunk girls isn't right, both could have sex with a drunk girl and realise it would be wrong and don't do it -  and thus they mature, and are no longer the fuckwits they have been portrayed as they go through various adventures to get the booze, which is the main objective. Then they 'get the girls', but the end suggests getting a girl involves accompanying them while they shop a lot more than getting any sex.... and that's ok.

I legitimately think the film is a moral tale.

But at no point do they ever get any consequences for their actions so their redemption is unearned.

[Glebe]

Flynn O' Thick.

Cheers mate.

[Large Noise]

Yeah, as judas points out, the film seems to expect that you'll think they're gross and hilarious rather than dark and predatory when they talk about trying to have sex with girls who're too drunk to know better. There's also the scene where he mimes fucking Emma Stone's character while her back's turned, again the film's expectation seems to be that you'll find this funny in and of itself.

I don't think you could put either of those scenes in a film nowdays.

[BritishHobo]

I'm not so sure I agree with you here. The point of the gag you quote is to mirror Brent against the new boss (can't remember his name- Tony?) and his jokes. Brent's is old, homophobic, misjudged and badly delivered. And it sinks without trace. It's a horrid joke because it's supposed to be a horrid joke.

I think it's less about the context in the show and more about Gervais' later work making it seem totally apparent that he just finds those schoolyard gags hilarious and wants to use them all the time.

Remember that we're supposed to see Brent as a cringeworthy dinosaur, but hero Tim also spends ages doing jokes to make Gareth sound like a naughty bummer.

[Dr Rock]

But at no point do they ever get any consequences for their actions so their redemption is unearned.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one

[madhair60]

Superbad is supergood.

[Dr Rock]

But at no point do they ever get any consequences for their actions so their redemption is unearned.

They're stupid kids. Then they grow up a lot. What sort of consequences do you think they need  to suffer in order for their redemption to be earned? I think it's about growing up and learning important stuff about the opposite sex that previously they had totally wrong and stupid ideas about, so that isn't really necessary. They realise they had it all wrong, and consequently do the right thing, isn't that enough?

[Jerzy Bondov]

But at no point do they ever get any consequences for their actions so their redemption is unearned.

Hold on. They go to that horrible party with Joe Lo Truglio where they are bullied, humiliated, threatened and witness to a brutal beating. They fall out badly with each other and one of them pushes the other in front of a moving car. The police then attempt to frame them. They also get attacked on a bus and thrown off of it. I won't deny that the characters are pretty revolting but they do suffer consequences and change as a result.

[Jerzy Bondov]

One of the characters in the classic 'Improvisation' episode of the otherwise brilliant Friendchips (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U_mm5wSMYQ) does a very offensive 'Oriental' accent when delivering the admittedly very hilarious line 'Nobody escapes the wrath of the ninja'.

[Utter Shit]

*most* of it is pretty harmless and vaudevillian - get this, they ask out couple of birds at the bar and SHOCK HORROR they turn out to be crossdressers!

doesn't del have gay panic in one episode? swear I'm remembering something like that 

I will give Sullivan credit in that the worst bit of homophobia (Del convinced he's got AIDS because he got his hair cut by a gay man) is shown for what it is, but there is a lot of unabashed homophobia that doesn't really get analysed...off the top of my head there's an episode where Del thinks Rodney is gay, and his horror is not even presented as a joke, he simply says "there's never been anything like THAT in our family" and expresses relief when he realises it isn't true.

It doesn't ruin the show for me, it just stands out a bit because the show is for the most part at pains to show how anti-racist it is, presenting a multi-cultural Britain as something that is just fine, "a bloke's just a bloke" (provided he doesn't try to shove his cock up my arse).

[Utter Shit]

Also the "jaffa" bullying of Boycie's infertility. My dad was a massive OFAH fan, but his last words to me were about how hurtful he'd found watching those bits because he was never able to have any children himself.

Yeah never thought of that - I guess the idea is that it's ok because it's Boycie and he needs to be taken down a peg or two, but as you say that doesn't make it any easier on the people watching it who have been affected by it.

[kalowski]

I think it's less about the context in the show and more about Gervais' later work making it seem totally apparent that he just finds those schoolyard gags hilarious and wants to use them all the time.

Remember that we're supposed to see Brent as a cringeworthy dinosaur, but hero Tim also spends ages doing jokes to make Gareth sound like a naughty bummer.

That's fair comment. Apart from Extras I've not really followed Gervais' post Office work so I don't have the context you refer to.

In terms of Tim, I've always taken it to be that they're all owners of small town mentalities, and although Tim claims to be better than everyone else, he's just the same really: bummer jokes and nights at Raiders.

[monolith]

I think it's disgraceful that teenage boys in Superbad are shown to be human and have faults, even if they then go on to change their ways. Ban this sick filth.

[Brundle-Fly]

Also the "jaffa" bullying of Boycie's infertility. My dad was a massive OFAH fan, but his last words to me were about how hurtful he'd found watching those bits because he was never able to have any children himself.

Were you adopted or was he your step-dad then? Or is this a clever joke?

[Hobo With A Shit Pun]

Watching Porridge over Christmas on UK gold and it had more questionable racism and homophobia than I recalled it having.

I recently watched Going Straight, and right from the off there's a gag directed at Tony Osaba that's just... needless. Just "apropos of nothing, here's some racism".

[Enrico Palazzo]

I watched the first episode of The Inbetweeners the other night. Hadn't seen it in years. There were a lot of gay jokes.

[Dr Rock]

I think Only Fools And Horses is fundamentally against intellectualism. Rodney is the straw man so any attempt to say something clever or knowledgable can be shot down by his character flaws and he's a plonker. The message -  a bit similar to Citizen Smith - is a reassuring 'don't get ideas above your station with thoughts of politics or think you're clever, cos those people are twats or plonkers.' Be like Del-Boy? Better being him than Rodney or anyone else in the cast, none of whom are intellectuals, as far as I recall.

[Dr Rock]

Compare it to Shelley and there you have a working-class/unemployed man who is dead clever and could outwit Del-Boy no problem. But Shelley or someone like him would never be allowed near Del Boy.

[Oops! Wrong Planet]

Were you adopted or was he your step-dad then? Or is this a clever joke?

A clever joke. I do remember thinking at the time, I wonder how unhappy blokes who can't have children feel watching it. Seemed a bit cruel. I suppose a lot of comedy wouldn't get made if writers had to be sensitive to every potential person affected though.