Hardware/software advice - getting back into music recording

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Hi,

I have a budget of about £200, which I'd like to spend on some cheap practical gear for home recording, onto a PC.

With that I'd like to buy:
- A good microphone, low background hiss but also not overly compressed - I'd be prepared to dedicate more of my budget to this if it made a dramatic difference
(To augment the above - I'm looking for a microphone setup that will effectively capture guitar and vocals performed at the same time but on separate files, in order to edit the sound) - I'd imagine I'd need 2 microphones and a mixer for that.
- A guitar interface, preferably non-laggy - if there's any half decent software thrown in then all the better.
- A small, effective mixer that's intuitive to use and minimal fannying about (I have lots of software for that job anyway)
- Good quality light over-ear headphones
- Whatever cables you'd recommend for the job - I have a USB midi cable for my keyboard so that's sorted - was thinking about a couple of jack leads as well.

Also - does a package like this https://www.google.co.uk/shopping/product/5005143021793516953?lsf=seller:8628157,store:12031892284882369121&q=home+studio+setup&hl=en&lsft=gclid:Cj0KCQiAwp_UBRD7ARIsAMie3Xb8Rd2dldUsCVVj5YQNp4pBESp7mT-82ahOw1L8MUsCXaOoMxQU0XQaAozFEALw_wcB&prds=oid:9491128963019256650&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiourPGzqzZAhUFCsAKHUY1CY8QrRIIIw

Represent good value or is it better to buy these individually?

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

https://www.thomann.de/gb/superlux_hi_10.htm

This microphone looks fairly well priced and reviewed for example. Seems to use an XLR lead but doesn't come with one so:

https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_sssnake_sk233-6_mikrokabel.htm?ref=prod_rel_118650_0

Where now - that lead is supposed to go into a mixer next presumably. Not sure what I'm doing on that score. Previously I used a microphone attached to a PC and used software mixing.

[doppelkorn]

Reaper is a really good DAW that's free to use but you should buy the $60 license at some point.

[NoSleep]

https://www.thomann.de/gb/superlux_hi_10.htm

This microphone looks fairly well priced and reviewed for example. Seems to use an XLR lead but doesn't come with one so:

https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_sssnake_sk233-6_mikrokabel.htm?ref=prod_rel_118650_0

Where now - that lead is supposed to go into a mixer next presumably. Not sure what I'm doing on that score. Previously I used a microphone attached to a PC and used software mixing.

Or a preamp (with phantom power; needed for that thomann mic), which could also suffice as an electric guitar input. ART do a nice low budget preamp that seems to magically know whatever impedance the input is; all kinds of microphones, piezo contact mics (fun and cheap to play around with), line level sound modules/keyboards and electric guitars.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/art-tube-mp-studio-mic-preamp

Why do you need a mixer? Was it to phantom power mics, etc?

That Presonus audio interface pretty much covers everything (including phantom power and guitar level input, although the preamp above could sound pretty good in combination with the Presonus) and is £85 on its own from the same shop. Get the mic and lead from Thomann and you're off, if you have a pair of headphones knocking about already; that's the only other consideration. Separately those headphones cost £20-£28 on Amazon. The mic and the software don't appear to exist outside of the bundle, so you're paying the extra £60-65 for them. If the software isn't all that then that's £65 for the mic.

I dunno about the software, though. REAPER's a good and cheap option, or free, as it isn't shackleware.

[Johnny Yesno]

I'd imagine I'd need 2 microphones

- A guitar interface

Why do you need two mics and a guitar interface?

[NoSleep]

The Presonus could accommodate either two mics for vocal and acoustic guitar or one mic for vocal and electric guitar DI'd. The inputs on the face of the Presonus are able to accommodate either 1/4" jacks or XLR.

[spamwangler]

behringer's U-PHORIA usb interfaces have no latency and decent midas preamps, has decent instrument input also

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Behringer-U-PHORIA-UMC204HD-Audio-Interface/dp/B00SAV96JM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1518890185&sr=8-1&keywords=Behringer+U-PHORIA

those presonous ones are alright too

make sure you get a large diagragm condencer for vocals

superulx are a good copycat/cheap mic company, their stuff sounds good, gotta be careful with it tho, theyre not as hard wearing as expensive stuff

reaper is great no messing recording DAW with loads of functionality

[Twed]

Technosound Turbo II, Amiga 500

[NoSleep]

make sure you get a large diagragm condenser for vocals

Another bargain from Thomann:

https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_tbone_sc300.htm

I wonder if you need to budget for a couple of mic stands?

[a duncandisorderly]

Reaper is a really good DAW that's free to use but you should buy the $60 license at some point.

+1.

I've used a lot of DAWs over the years, & none of them can hold a carrot to reaper for VFM, reliability & cross-platformism.

I'd get a basic audio interface with just line level in/out, & a decent mic pre, & use your existing guitar effects/amp rather than a dedicated guitar processor.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

large diagragm condencer

preamp

Yeah getting my head around what these mean and the associated cabling is confusing me. Also as per usual online reviews are full of techies trying to outdo each other and criticising gear that for my purposes may be perfectly adequate.

Essentially I want to be able to record clear minimal hissy guitar and vocals at the same time, while they record to seperate tracks, while picking up a decent pair of over ear headphones so I don't annoy the neighbours.

The guitar interface is for fun and to mess around with different synths.

Reaper is often recommended and I found it ok to use on a demo one time. The daw isn't a major issue as I have  trusty old favourite, but I might revisit Reaper.

[Johnny Yesno]

I want to be able to record clear minimal hissy guitar

You haven't said whether it's acoustic or electric. This is why I asked you if you really need two microphones.

[NoSleep]

Essentially I want to be able to record clear minimal hissy guitar and vocals at the same time, while they record to seperate tracks, while picking up a decent pair of over ear headphones so I don't annoy the neighbours.

Above bolded to say I assume it's electric guitar you want to record, not acoustic. So by "guitar interface" I assume you mean something like those things Line 6 make for computers that allow you to hear a low latency guitar amplifier emulation whilst recording.

All these little 2 in/2 out USB interfaces, like the Presonus Audiobox USB 96 will allow you plug both an electric guitar and a mic in simultaneously and record them to separate channels. They claim to do this with "zero latency", but if you want to hear the electric guitar sounding something like how you would like it to be, then their "zero latency" option is not open to you. What the "zero latency" actual means is that the interface bypasses your hearing the latency by playing you the direct signal from the preamps in the interface. Hence the knob on the front panel of the Audiobox called "Mixer" which crossfades between "inputs" and "playback". This means that this knob would have to be set somewhere around 50% to hear both the tracks you have already recorded and at the same time monitor your vocals and guitar as you record them. Obviously the guitar sound you will hear will be clean, DI'd sound. To hear an amplified sound you will need an amp emulation plugin AND you will have to deal with the latency caused by monitoring the signal via your DAW. The "mixer" knob would be set to 100% playback, of course, and so the vocals will also be subject to the same latency. The only option is to reduce the latency to its minimum while recording (there's an app for this on PCs that I know nothing about but every PC/DAW user knows about, called ASIO4ALL).

You're really only in the market for a USB audio interface (with built-in preamps & phantom power), a (large diaphragm, condenser) microphone, a microphone lead, headphones (and possibly a mic stand). £200 is probably tight, mainly because you could easily spend the whole lot on either the interface, mic or cans.

Presonus USB interface: £87.82 (Thomann)
t.bone SC440 + Popkiller (probably useful accessory): £58.55
XLR cable: £4.26
Headphones: pretty good AKG standard studio cans, b-stock price £47.90. These might not ideal for wearing whilst singing, though, as they are semi-open (closed would be preferable). They'd be useful for mixing and working otherwise.
Microphone stand: £39.03

Total: £237.56 (+p&p) all from Thomann

You can save a bit by going for a cheaper t.bone mic, minus the popkiller and cradle, and opting for lower budget headphones and mic stand.

[NoSleep]

P.S. After mentioning the ART Tube MP standalone 1 in/1 out preamp it's probably worth pointing you in the direction of ART's own USB Audio Interface:

https://www.thomann.de/gb/art_usb_dual_pre.htm

...slightly cheaper than the Presonus, too: £78.95

Not having heard either I'd probably plump for the ART one because I've always liked the sound of their gear.

[Johnny Yesno]

P.S. After mentioning the ART Tube MP standalone 1 in/1 out preamp it's probably worth pointing you in the direction of ART's own USB Audio Interface:

https://www.thomann.de/gb/art_usb_dual_pre.htm

...slightly cheaper than the Presonus, too: £78.95

Not having heard either I'd probably plump for the ART one because I've always liked the sound of their gear.

ART are pretty trustworthy, aren't they? I was looking at the customer reviews on Amazon for the Presonus and the Focusrite Scarlett and there are some pretty pissed off people on there.

£200 is probably tight, mainly because you could easily spend the whole lot on either the interface, mic or cans.

I was thinking the same. You get what you pay for.

Thanks for the links, by the way. I have a friend who is a singer who is also looking for similar gear.

[NoSleep]

P.P.S.

Reading the manual, unfortunately the ART USB interface only runs at 16-bit/48kHz (uses the plug and play USB Audio Codec) so maybe it isn't advisable to go for this (24-bit being the best bet for recording). The Presonus AudioBox USB 96 has 24-bit, and has 96kHz capability (if you want to go that far up the hill). The Presonus is also a MIDI interface (wasn't even considering that).

Looks like that Studio One DAW package comes with the standalone Presonus AudioBox, too (for what it's worth).

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

You haven't said whether it's acoustic or electric. This is why I asked you if you really need two microphones.

I have an acoustic but am looking to get an electric, so 2 microphones for the acoustic recording and a guitar interface for some pratting around would be great. The Behringer one noted above looks nice, thank you.

I read that ribbon mics would be best to record the guitar while a condenser mic would be better for the vocals, as the combo would do a better job of the two sounds not bleeding through. Ribbon microphones don't appear to be cheap.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Also, as far as mic stands go the cheapest and most rudimentary will be fine for my purposes. I don't want to buy an expensive piece of equipment that only stays still when put into one specific stand.

[NoSleep]

The only problem with a ribbon mic to record the guitar while you're singing is that is it bi directional (figure of eight pattern) so there will be more bleed from the vocals on the guitar track than if you use a cardioid.

[NoSleep]

Also, as far as mic stands go the cheapest and most rudimentary will be fine for my purposes. I don't want to buy an expensive piece of equipment that only stays still when put into one specific stand.

Have a look on the Thomann site. Their own K&M range are reasonably priced and well-built. The one I picked out is a basic low budget all-rounder but you could get a cheap nasty one by Stagg and just be extra careful. The K&M one will still be usable for decades, though.

[NoSleep]

If you're looking to get cheaper mic stands (as you may need two) perhaps the mic I recommended (the SC 440) might be too heavy to handle. There are some budget options in the Thomann t.bone dynamic mic range (including one package of three mics for £25.72):

https://www.thomann.de/gb/dynamic_microphones.html?filter=true&manufacturer[]=the%20t.bone

[Johnny Yesno]

I have an acoustic but am looking to get an electric, so 2 microphones for the acoustic recording and a guitar interface for some pratting around would be great. The Behringer one noted above looks nice, thank you.

I read that ribbon mics would be best to record the guitar while a condenser mic would be better for the vocals, as the combo would do a better job of the two sounds not bleeding through. Ribbon microphones don't appear to be cheap.

I see. Two decent condenser mics would be sufficient. These alone will blow your £200 budget, though, I reckon.

P.P.S.

Reading the manual, unfortunately the ART USB interface only runs at 16-bit/48kHz (uses the plug and play USB Audio Codec) so maybe it isn't advisable to go for this (24-bit being the best bet for recording).

How important is this, though? It's CD quality. I have an Alesis iO2 plug and play interface I've had for years which only runs at 16-bit/48kHz but it sounds lovely. No worse than my more complicated to use Focusrite, as far as I can tell. And it doesn't crash or glitch. It just works. My only criticisms are that the left and right gains cannot be linked and that the rubberised surfaces have rotted over the years.

[Johnny Yesno]

Here's another possible solution, although it will bust your £200 budget by itself:

https://www.zoom-na.com/products/field-video-recording/field-recording/zoom-h5-handy-recorder

I bought one of these recently and it is fucking great, and an absolute piece of piss to use. I already own two mics that I can plug into the other two channels, which means I have enough channels to record kick, snare and overheads on my drum kit.

If you bought one extra mic with one of these, Shoulders, you'd be able to use the onboard pair to record your acoustic guitar and sing into the other. There's also a line in on the mic cartridge that you could plug your electric into, though it is a mini jack.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

The only problem with a ribbon mic to record the guitar while you're singing is that is it bi directional (figure of eight pattern) so there will be more bleed from the vocals on the guitar track than if you use a cardioid.

This is why it's difficult to know what to do. I've read precisely the opposite, that if you angle it correctly they do a very clean job for that same reason.

To help with recommendations I'm extremely unlikely to end up spending more than £65-£70 on 2 microphones. This already rules me out of getting a ribbon mic other than perhaps second-hand.

[Johnny Yesno]

To help with recommendations I'm extremely unlikely to end up spending more than £65-£70 on 2 microphones.

In that case, I would give up on the idea of recording acoustic guitar and vocals together and just buy one decent mic.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

In that case, I would give up on the idea of recording acoustic guitar and vocals together and just buy one decent mic.

You have more money than I do by the sound of things and I'm sure my standards aren't as high as yours. From what I've seen so far I think it's possible to do some decent enough home recording and get 2 microphones for under £70.00

What I'd like to know is, previously I've recorded using a microphone that plugged into the back of a PC, and the recording software was just that - 1 microphone, 1 recording, 1 sound file.  Once two microphones are set up and let's say, rigged into the PC via a mixer/preamp, whatever (I still don't understand that fully) how do you get 2 sound files recording simultaneously?

[NoSleep]

This is why it's difficult to know what to do. I've read precisely the opposite, that if you angle it correctly they do a very clean job for that same reason.

It will depend on the acoustic qualities of the room you're recording in more than anything. What is going to pick up from the "other side" of a ribbon mic will be reflections from the other side of the room, which will be hard to eliminate so they better sound good.

[Johnny Yesno]

You have more money than I do by the sound of things and I'm sure my standards aren't as high as yours. From what I've seen so far I think it's possible to do some decent enough home recording and get 2 microphones for under £70.00

Believe me, I've had to make my decisions based on a tight budget. My reasoning is that if I can get by on less gear, I can spend more on better quality essentials. This means I don't have to replace absolutely everything as I gradually upgrade my gear.

For example, I could attempt to mic up my entire drum kit, but actually, I can get a great sound with just two mics and my recorder, as detailed above. It won't have the separation, but I don't really care about that as much as the sound quality. Back in multitracking's infancy, they used to get fantastic drum sounds using just one mic.

You can multitrack using Reaper, which is free, so you don't need to play guitar and sing at the same time.

What I'd like to know is, previously I've recorded using a microphone that plugged into the back of a PC, and the recording software was just that - 1 microphone, 1 recording, 1 sound file.  Once two microphones are set up and let's say, rigged into the PC via a mixer/preamp, whatever (I still don't understand that fully) how do you get 2 sound files recording simultaneously?

If you're not using a DAW, then the answer is stereo - two mono channels recording different signals. You might have to pan them hard left and hard right to get the maximum gain.

[NoSleep]

What I'd like to know is, previously I've recorded using a microphone that plugged into the back of a PC, and the recording software was just that - 1 microphone, 1 recording, 1 sound file.  Once two microphones are set up and let's say, rigged into the PC via a mixer/preamp, whatever (I still don't understand that fully) how do you get 2 sound files recording simultaneously?

If you're using a multitrack DAW, like REAPER, you will have to configure it with your audio interface. Presuming you get something like the Presonus, it's inputs and outputs will automatically become, as far as REAPER is concerned, inputs 1 & 2 and outputs 1 & 2. When you set up to record audio in REAPER it will want to know what input you want to use for each track. If you configure two mono tracks and assign them to inputs 1 & 2 and hit record, they will be recorded as two separate tracks. You also have the option of assigning a single stereo track to "input 1-2" (which you might do with a matched pair of microphones to make an ambient stereo recording of a performance or perhaps a field recording). Essentially your audio interface will have to be assigned to your preferred audio software. If you had 8 in/out you could record into the software over 8 channels simultaneously, etc. Every DAW will work something like this.

[Johnny Yesno]

the ART USB interface only runs at 16-bit/48kHz

I was thinking about this some more and I reckon that if this is as good quality as I believe ART gear usually is, then this is where the required savings can be made without too much detriment to the overall sound quality of the set up. It's cheap because it's behind the curve rather than poor quality.

As I say, my iO2 still sounds great - it picks up the detail of my AKG C3000B mic beautifully. If Shoulders is going to use cheap mics, then I don't believe he will reap the benefits of 24-bit/96kHz anyway.