Hardware/software advice - getting back into music recording

[Johnny Yesno]

So it's quite handy to have just in case some cunt brings some MIDI around.

Only a dunce would write off all those great MIDI controlled synths.

[spamwangler]

That proviso eliminates every single interface we've discussed. In my experience of these budget interfaces the important thing is to connect them direct to one of your computer's USB sockets, where it can get a full 5V all to itself. Don't connect it via a hub (especially not an unpowered hub).

the behringer one is powered, ive found it to be a problem regardless of where its usb'd too on some machines, but admittedly this didnt seem to come up on the first  couple of computers i had, so dont know what the ratio is

[spamwangler]

fuck i take that back actually - ive got the 4 usb version which is powered

[spamwangler]

Only a dunce would write off all those great MIDI controlled synths.

totally joking about midi btw

firewire is definatley for cunts tho

[NoSleep]

fuck i take that back actually - ive got the 4 usb version which is powered

You mean the 4-input one? That one is self powered.

Regarding the sound, btw, you can't really judge how good the quality of a 2 I/O unit is by your experience of the 4 I/O unit, just as I pointed out that the Scarlett 8i6 is a better quality unit than the Scarlett 2i2 (regardless of the number of I/O).

[spamwangler]

You mean the 4-input one? That one is self powered.

Regarding the sound, btw, you can't really judge how good the quality of a 2 I/O unit is by your experience of the 4 I/O unit, just as I pointed out that the Scarlett 8i6 is a better quality unit than the Scarlett 2i2 (regardless of the number of I/O).

in the case of the behringer, the 4input and the 2input unit are identical apart from the number of inputs - the 4 input one is usb powered, but has an optinal power supply, which bypasses the usb power when plugged in

[NoSleep]

How were you able to judge? Have you actually used both units? The Scarlett 2i2 is similar to the 8i6 in appearance but there's clearly been some corners cut internally.

[Johnny Yesno]

totally joking about midi btw

D'oh, you.

firewire is definatley for cunts tho

Apple apparently think so. I was so pissed off when it turned out the new Macs don't have firewire. I had to get a special lead at some expense in order to continue using my Focusrite.

[spamwangler]

How were you able to judge? Have you actually used both units? The Scarlett 2i2 is similar to the 8i6 in appearance but there's clearly been some corners cut internally.

it has the same preamps, and tech spec,  same controls and inputs and outputs, there may be some difference inbetween the two, but seems unlikley, as they were all released at the same time, and the preamps are going to be 99 percent of the sound, - the two scarletts you mention are different units with different spec like

[Dr Syntax Head]

Apple apparently think so. I was so pissed off when it turned out the new Macs don't have firewire. I had to get a special lead at some expense in order to continue using my Focusrite.

Me too. Lighning. Had no issues though.

[NoSleep]

it has the same preamps, and tech spec,  same controls and inputs and outputs, there may be some difference inbetween the two, but seems unlikley, as they were all released at the same time, and the preamps are going to be 99 percent of the sound, - the two scarletts you mention are different units with different spec like

Don't forget the convertors (that's the thing that mostly makes a difference between the cheap ones and the expensive ones).

I couldn't find any details of the Behringer units beyond a list of similar features on their site, whereas I found comprehensive details of the Scarlett units' specifications on the Focusrite site (pretty honest and thorough of them).

[Neomod]

I use the Behringer UMC22 (cheap as chips at £35) with a Behringer C3 mic (£50) and it works like a charm. I'm no tech head but have had no problems with hiss etc when recording acoustic guitar/vocals.

I'd also say it's better/easier to use than my old phonic firefly that cost me over a hundred quid.

[NoSleep]

Blimey: I finally found the spec for the Behringers; in their "quick start guide". Looks like the 202, 204 & 404 are all on a par (aside from differing number of I/O they are all lumped together, at least). But it wasn't presented in plain sight as with the Focusrite specs.

Oddly the 202, 204 & 404's 24-bit capability is only ever mentioned in their titles on the website ("U-PHORIA UMC204HD Audiophile 2x4, 24-Bit/192 kHz USB Audio/MIDI Interface with MIDAS Mic Preamplifiers") and never in the specifications. So the two lesser units (the UM2 and UM22) are not specified as having any kind of bit rate, not even in their titles. I presume they're only 16-bit, but that's poor representation.

Actually, the Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 page I linked to above doesn't specifically state "24-Bit" anywhere, either (but then it is 24-bit), but it's mentioned in the comprehensive user manual you can immediately download, something that Behringer could learn to do. I have a Behringer B-Control BCF2000 and the only reason I was able to operate it after purchase, was thanks to a third party presenting a detailed (amazing, considering the lack of documentation from Behringer) tutorial on YouTube.

[NoSleep]

I use the Behringer UMC22 (cheap as chips at £35) with a Behringer C3 mic (£50) and it works like a charm. I'm no tech head but have had no problems with hiss etc when recording acoustic guitar/vocals.

I presume you mean the UM22. So can you tell us all if it is only capable of 16-bit recording and playback?

[Neomod]

I presume you mean the UM22. So can you tell us all if it is only capable of 16-bit recording and playback?

It's this one.
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/UMC22

It says 48khz which i'm guessing is 16-bit. 

[NoSleep]

48kHz doesn't really indicate whether it's limited to 16-bit. As Behringer are stingy on revealing this detail, you'd have to look at how your computer is handling it. I'm on a Mac, so I'd open an app in the application/utilities folder called Audio MIDI Setup, select the UM22 and see what options it offers for bit rate (if it does both 16 & 24-bit then you will be able to choose one or the other). I don't know what the equivalent is in a PC, but there will be a similar way to configure your soundcards/interfaces (and thus know what their capabilities are).

[NoSleep]

I finally dug the info up from a discussion on Gearslutz; the UMC22 (yeah) is only 16-bit. Also, looking around at the Amazon reviews and elsewhere, the UMC22 is getting a lot of complaints about unacceptable background noise.

[Neomod]

Rick Moranis in this review states that the UMC22 is 16-bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLNDxdtBGVc

Apparently the 202/204's are 24-bit.

Also, looking around at the Amazon reviews and elsewhere, the UMC22 is getting a lot of complaints about unacceptable background noise.

I've not found that at all.

[NoSleep]

Apparently the 202/204's are 24-bit.

And Behringer actually tell us they are. However there is no indication anywhere in their literature/website that the UMC22 and UM2 are only 16-bit. I guess they reckon they'll sell a few extra by not letting on.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Previous to this I had just been plugging a cheap Creative unidirectional microphone into the microphone socket. There was some manageable hiss but it depended a lot on location and which device I connected it to. My interest in improving was to make sure I recorded vocals and guitar simultaneously but on seperate recordings.

Mental that the next step up just to do that is all of this. I timidly venture it doesn't need to be this hardware heavy or expensive if a company put their mind to it.

Also the value of advice is muddied as the people who know a lot about set up and sound may be applying pristine standards when I may simply need good standards.

Have to say if I buy all this and find I get the same hiss as I do from the cheap computer microphone I'll flip.

[NoSleep]

I'm surprised that this (which is the lowest rung on the computer audio scale if you want the minimum of quality) is all news to you, given that you've been producing recordings for years. I first thought you were just juggling the prices. Were you paying to go into studios or something before?

[Johnny Yesno]

I timidly venture it doesn't need to be this hardware heavy or expensive if a company put their mind to it.

Unfortunately, it pretty much does. Decent materials and quality assembly have associated costs.

Also the value of advice is muddied as the people who know a lot about set up and sound may be applying pristine standards when I may simply need good standards.

It's all about getting the most for your money and making sure you don't run into limitations early on. For example, NoSleep is pushing for 24-bit not only for quality but also for ease of use. This is important in making sure you achieve rewarding results that keep you interested.

Have to say if I buy all this and find I get the same hiss as I do from the cheap computer microphone I'll flip.

I sincerely doubt that.

[NoSleep]

Also the value of advice is muddied as the people who know a lot about set up and sound may be applying pristine standards when I may simply need good standards.

This isn't happening. The level of gear we're talking about in this thread is not what you'd be using in a professional situation; audio interfaces from £500 (and up to several thousand if you need multiple outputs), microphones from £400-£500 and up to £1500 (not that you wouldn't be happy use an SM58 - £129 - in the right situation), headphones at least above £100 (and nearer £200) before they're reliable enough to mix with.

All the stuff talked about here is better than using the native audio and the internal mic of a laptop, which is actually a huge leap. Even using a shitty pair of headphones to compare a piece of music you know well via the native sound and then listening to it via your new audio interface will reveal a massive improvement.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Hi,

So I'm in position to spend the money now - and I picked up the Behringer audio interface spamwangler recommended and will pick up the Superlux HD-660 headphones as they look quite good.

In terms of the microphone set up - I'm going to pick up the t.bone SC 300 for vocals

However spamwangler recommended the Superlux s502 for guitar recording, which look very nice but quite expensive. Searching around I found these:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Behringer-C-2-Studio-Condenser-Microphones/dp/B000CZ0RLU/ref=sr_1_56?ie=UTF8&qid=1523812771&sr=8-56&keywords=microphones+for+recording

for £70 cheaper. I was also wondering whether I may as well scrap or at least postpone getting the t.bone and see how these do? They're very well reviewed. They seem to require 'phantom power' which I don't quite understand but I think the audio interface I have bought does that.

Mad/sane/any comments?

[Johnny Yesno]

I was also wondering whether I may as well scrap or at least postpone getting the t.bone and see how these do? They're very well reviewed.

They certainly seem like good value from the Amazon customer reviews. I can't see a reason not to put off purchasing the T.Bone while you get to grips with the rest of the gear.

They seem to require 'phantom power' which I don't quite understand but I think the audio interface I have bought does that.

It does. That's what the +48 on the case is all about.

[NoSleep]

I have a pair of C2's. Bought them when they first appeared because they were so cheap and were a matched pair for stereo recording. I find myself having to eq them like mad to get the sound up to scratch. I used them to record a live band (using in a crossed pair configuration to get a good stereo field) and found I had to eq out a big dip around 375 Hz in post production. The result was good enough to replace the audio recorded by the film crew so they worked.

I've used one of them as a vocal mic when presenting CaB Radio for a while before I got my AKG 414.

They'll be handy if you need to record a drum kit as a pair of "overheads" (set them in a crossed pair in front of the kit, high enough that they have sight of every skin, apart from the kick, of course).

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Thanks. Excited. I'll have a think next few days - perhaps spamwangler might be able to comment why Superlux S502 are worth so much more outlay?... then put in the order. I'm also probably going to be back here soon enough once the slightest thing goes wrong.

[spamwangler]

ive not tried them, but quite a few people have told me the behringer C2s are really decent for the price -

the thing i like about the s502 is that its fixed in the ORTF mic position, so you dont have to think about placement so much - though this is not neccicarily an advantage, only to lazy bastards like me

i think as you pay more you might have to eq things a bit less to get the sound you want, and maybe a little bit less noise in the mix, but for budget home recording, maybe youre not going to feel the difference too much

id say go for the C2s instead if thats your price range

[spamwangler]

oh, phantom power is just a low powered bit of electric you can send up the microphone cable to power the microphone. most 'condenser' microphones need this to work, - its just a button on the interface you push, and then the mic will come to life

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Sweet, thanks. I reckon the Behringer ones will do for my purposes. And not meaning to be disrespectful by shunning those other ones but they do seem a little like a luxury on my budget and my plans. No idea what ORTF means.

I understand what EQ means but practically speaking, what will that involve me needing to do? The audio interface doesn't appear to have much in that respect - only gain etc, so are we talking about software EQ?