Trump #7 - Kremlin's in the system

[biggytitbo]

I totally agree Biggy, the deluded partisan bullshit of Dictionary.com needs to stop. FAKE DEFINITIONS

Nope, there's a reason treason is the only crime specifcially defined in the American constitution, precisely because of its relentless misuse - https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/americans-have-forgotten-what-treason-actually-means-how-it-can-ncna848651

Among other things, the mere existence of this question underscores the need for a long overdue moratorium on the blithe characterization of things as "treason"— and for all of us to be far more careful when using that term to describe conduct that we believe is some combination of reprehensible, criminal and perhaps even impeachable.

Thus, to ensure that treason could not likewise be co-opted for political or personal purposes, the Constitution's drafters not only defined it precisely (it's the only offense specifically defined in that document), but also specified that "No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court."

Because of this history, a lot of things that might seem or feel like treason to casual observers do not, in fact, come close. In this context "enemies," for example, must be countries against which Congress has formally declared war or otherwise authorized the use of force. (So contemporary Russia is out, whatever role it may have played in the 2016 election.) Even during the height of the Cold War, when Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were tried, convicted and executed for conveying nuclear secrets to the Soviet Union, the charge against them was espionage, not treason.

[Fry]

The one person on the board who most staunchly supported Trump during his election campaign is now lecturing people on the best way to oppose him now he's in power. That is funny.

[New Jack]

Nope,

Thanks for defining treason but did you not notice the terms used include the word traitor, not treason? No need to correct the dictionary old bean. I do find it amusing they shared a viewpoint!

It does however illustrate how such terms are very much part of a wider conversation. I may even be so bold as to think the sentiments here are representative of a wide swathe of people, though I won't be gauche enough to use twitter as a metric for that, I suspect it reflects a lot of feelings stateside - oh,dictionary.com, you and your zany twitter.

I suppose I don't believe your issue here is purely linguistic, and I'm wondering if you shut things down just because you disagree with them. I am interested whether you'll kick off at why a dictionary's web presence should or shouldn't have a say here. My own viewpoint is once something is sufficiently newsworthy, have at it...  Generally. This would be one of those occasions.

[Crisps?]

Oh no, he's betraying the saintly beacon of liberty and human rights for the world by criticising its secret police. That's almost as bad as threatening the most aggressive and murderous multi-national organisation in history and disrespecting Her Majesty. As a left-winger, I can't sleep at night.

[Buelligan]

The worst thing about all this is the unquestioning hero worship and deification of the us intelligence and foreign policy establishment, who should by rights be the most discredited group in the whole of western politics after the last 20 years, along with the hideous rehabilition of all these  Bush era neocons and intelligence figures as respected statesman and pundits, rather than the criminal scumbags whose lies and deciet wrecked multiple countries and killed millions they are.


The last people we need to form the opposition to trump is them.

I think you're missing the point.  People like to feel informed, like they know what's going on and who to trust so's they can predict what may happen to a degree.  In a dangerous world, it makes them feel secure. 

In order to do this, they need to know something about reality.  Reality that's passed and what is real now. 

Trump's constant lies, his endless u-turns, his complete disregard for the actualité in favour of whatever happens to pass through his mind as preferable at any given moment, makes this impossible.  It's deeply destabilising, it frightens people, especially people with even a modicum of intelligence or morality, it frightens them a lot.  It frightens them even more because, alongside this, he makes it plain that he doesn't care an ounce for the needs, feelings or lives of people who are not him.

This kind of autocratic pathological mythomania, this kind of disregard for the lives and needs of others is rare but when it's seen, in people like Idi Amin, Stalin, Henry Tudor (8), Caligula, sensible people know it's time to depose the fuck or escape with their lives and children.  I don't think I'm exaggerating here.

[jobotic]

Oh no, he's betraying the saintly beacon of liberty and human rights for the world by criticising its secret police. That's almost as bad as threatening the most aggressive and murderous multi-national organisation in history and disrespecting Her Majesty. As a left-winger, I can't sleep at night.

Yeah, he's attacking them from the left isn't he?

[Paul Calf]

I think you're missing the point.  People like to feel informed, like they know what's going on and who to trust so's they can predict what may happen to a degree.  In a dangerous world, it makes them feel secure. 

In order to do this, they need to know something about reality.  Reality that's passed and what is real now. 

Trump's constant lies, his endless u-turns, his complete disregard for the actualité in favour of whatever happens to pass through his mind as preferable at any given moment, makes this impossible.  It's deeply destabilising, it frightens people, especially people with even a modicum of intelligence or morality, it frightens them a lot.  It frightens them even more because, alongside this, he makes it plain that he doesn't care an ounce for the needs, feelings or lives of people who are not him.

This kind of autocratic pathological mythomania, this kind of disregard for the lives and needs of others is rare but when it's seen, in people like Idi Amin, Stalin, Henry Tudor (8), Caligula, sensible people know it's time to depose the fuck or escape with their lives and children.  I don't think I'm exaggerating here.

This.

[Crisps?]

Yeah, he's attacking them from the left isn't he?

It doesn't matter where he's attacking them from or for what reason. I'm not going to start defending some of the worst people and organisations in history because of something the host of the Apprentice in 2021 said or did.

[jobotic]

Good for you. neither am I. Neither is anyone. I can see people claiming to be on the left defending a white supremacist though.

What does the Apprentice bit mean?

[Buelligan]

It doesn't matter where he's attacking them from or for what reason. I'm not going to start defending some of the worst people and organisations in history because of something the host of the Apprentice in 2021 said or did.

It's not about that though, is it?  Surely some thought must be given to the fact that these shadowy people have had carte blanche to go about the world as unassailable American Heroes, bringing death and hell into the lives of guilty and innocent alike, for decades.  Beyond reproach, beyond the law, untouchable.

Then, suddenly, on a whim, they're marked out for the cull.  Because it suits Trump.  That is the beginning of dictatorship. 

[Crisps?]

Good for you. neither am I. Neither is anyone. I can see people claiming to be on the left defending a white supremacist though.

I suppose it depends on what you think is the bigger problem, a white supremacist pensioner who will be out of a job in two years time or a white supremacist state that has existed since 1776 and ruled the world since 1945.

What does the Apprentice bit mean?

It means he's a game show host, not Adolf Hitler.

[phantom_power]

You mean the president of the United States? One of the most powerful men on the planet? With the power to fuck environmental treaties, cause international incidents and empower right wing organisations in America and the rest of the world.

Yeah, just a game show host

[ajsmith2]

I suppose it depends on what you think is the bigger problem, a white supremacist pensioner who will be out of a job in two years time or a white supremacist state that has existed since 1776 and ruled the world since 1945.

It means he's a game show host, not Adolf Hitler.

The thing is, he's neither just now. He's the President of the United States right now. I don't think we should cut him any slack cos he came from a fatuous place and will return there. He got the big job he wanted, now he has to deal with it. Functionally, he's closer to Adolf Hitler (or to be less provocative, any other national leader) than a game show host as of now up to at least 2020, and I mean that in the lead pejorative way possible. Calling him a 'game show host' is 2015 talk, it doesn't make any sense when he is president.

[jobotic]

I suppose it depends on what you think is the bigger problem, a white supremacist pensioner who will be out of a job in two years time or a white supremacist state that has existed since 1776 and ruled the world since 1945.

It means he's a game show host, not Adolf Hitler.

It's possible to think both are a problem, but that's been explained a thousand times. If you don't think Trump is a problem then I guess we're done. Funny old left-wing viewpoint though. You're not alone I suppose.

[Buelligan]

I suppose it depends on what you think is the bigger problem, a white supremacist pensioner who will be out of a job in two years time or a white supremacist state that has existed since 1776 and ruled the world since 1945.

It means he's a game show host, not Adolf Hitler.

I find this idea that only one problem can be a real problem at any one time somewhat heartwarming, it's a comforting way to see things.  I honestly don't think it's a useful way of assessing risk though. 

Whatever you may think of Trump, it's obvious that he's enabling and emboldening extremely dangerous traits and ideas across the world.  The abandonment of Truth is more threatening to the well-being and safety of us all, everywhere on this little planet, than any individual state could ever be.  Even the most powerful state on Earth.  Sadly, I am not even lying.

[biggytitbo]

You mean the president of the United States? One of the most powerful men on the planet? With the power to fuck environmental treaties, cause international incidents and empower right wing organisations in America and the rest of the world.

Yeah, just a game show host

Due to a bad case of TDS - Trump Derangment Syndrome, a lot of people are unable to see the 'resistance' to Trump is more right wing and more dangerous than him. One of the most powerful men on the planet entirely surrounded from all sides of the political spectrum, the American state and the media by people who think he isn't stridently, recklessly, war like and confrontational enough - denouncing fascism in the fevered tones of fascists.The big mistake is purely for short term opposition to Trump, you further empower a group desperately agitating for more wars and conflict. The bottom line is, if you're promoting all this bullshit about Russia and treason and capitulating to dictators etc etc, you aren't opposing Trump and what he stands for at all, you're just making yourself part of the problem.

[EOLAN]

I think you're missing the point.  People like to feel informed, like they know what's going on and who to trust so's they can predict what may happen to a degree.  In a dangerous world, it makes them feel secure.

Aside from the whole Trump thing; I feel like people prefer to have their own personal biases to be confirmed from all sides of the spectrum and those stuck firmly in the middle of it; rather than being openly informed. This gives them a sense of certainty but not necessarily being informed.

[Buelligan]

I didn't think it possible to find a person with a less rosy view of the human condition than mine.  Perhaps I was wrong.

Whatever the case may be, I think most will agree that people like to feel that they have a good idea of what might happen next (and that what might happen next won't be a cataclysm - or if it is, they have an out).  To know or believe that, you need predictability.  The only thing you can predict about Trump is that he will behave like a dangerous lying arsehole with no regard for others.

[jobotic]

Due to a bad case of TDS - Trump Derangment Syndrome, a lot of people are unable to see the 'resistance' to Trump is more right wing and more dangerous than him. One of the most powerful men on the planet entirely surrounded from all sides of the political spectrum, the American state and the media by people who think he isn't stridently, recklessly, war like and confrontational enough - denouncing fascism in the fevered tones of fascists.The big mistake is purely for short term opposition to Trump, you further empower a group desperately agitating for more wars and conflict. The bottom line is, if you're promoting all this bullshit about Russia and treason and capitulating to dictators etc etc, you aren't opposing Trump and what he stands for at all, you're just making yourself part of the problem.

For fuck's sake. Pages and pages and pages of "actually the anti-fascists are worse than the fascists". From a Faragist. We know what fucking side you're on and why you pretend to support Corbyn.

[biggytitbo]

For fuck's sake. Pages and pages and pages of "actually the anti-fascists are worse than the fascists". From a Faragist. We know what fucking side you're on and why you pretend to support Corbyn.

Yeah I'm a TRAITOR and have probably committed TREASON right?

[jobotic]

Yeah I'm a TRAITOR and have probably committed TREASON right?

I've never used those words on here or anywhere else. I'll leave that to your boys in Vote Leave. You're just a prick.

[BlodwynPig]

I didn't think I never used aside from the whatever the case here's the thing guys! in my opinion what you are missing it's all a conspiracy the far-right not my president right?

prick traitor fuck cunt orang-utang libtard remoaner gammon

vote abstain protest deny mislead evade engage desist denial

[Howj Begg]

Due to a bad case of TDS - Trump Derangment Syndrome, a lot of people are unable to see the 'resistance' to Trump is more right wing and more dangerous than him. One of the most powerful men on the planet entirely surrounded from all sides of the political spectrum, the American state and the media by people who think he isn't stridently, recklessly, war like and confrontational enough - denouncing fascism in the fevered tones of fascists.The big mistake is purely for short term opposition to Trump, you further empower a group desperately agitating for more wars and conflict. The bottom line is, if you're promoting all this bullshit about Russia and treason and capitulating to dictators etc etc, you aren't opposing Trump and what he stands for at all, you're just making yourself part of the problem.

Nah

[phantom_power]

Due to a bad case of TDS - Trump Derangment Syndrome, a lot of people are unable to see the 'resistance' to Trump is more right wing and more dangerous than him. One of the most powerful men on the planet entirely surrounded from all sides of the political spectrum, the American state and the media by people who think he isn't stridently, recklessly, war like and confrontational enough - denouncing fascism in the fevered tones of fascists.The big mistake is purely for short term opposition to Trump, you further empower a group desperately agitating for more wars and conflict. The bottom line is, if you're promoting all this bullshit about Russia and treason and capitulating to dictators etc etc, you aren't opposing Trump and what he stands for at all, you're just making yourself part of the problem.

I don't really understand this line of thinking. Am I not allowed to condemn his environmental shithousery because Hillary is a hawk? I am not allowed to be angry at him emboldening nationalists and racists because some people are overstating the Russia thing to suit their own ends? You are the one claiming people are obsessed with specific issues but when people discuss other things you bring it back to the same old subjects every time.

[biggytitbo]

Yes, the obsessive desire to maintain and extend a violent empire of relentless military aggression, expansionism and regime change expressed in total consensus as unquestionable groupthink across the entire political and media spectrum that even the slightest diversion from makes you a traitor and an agent of a foreign power is not remotely right wing is it? Yet that's the resistance to Trump right now, not that he's uncouth, not that he's racist or sexist, no the resistance is because he's not a big enough warmonger for them.

[biggytitbo]

I don't really understand this line of thinking. Am I not allowed to condemn his environmental shithousery because Hillary is a hawk? I am not allowed to be angry at him emboldening nationalists and racists because some people are overstating the Russia thing to suit their own ends? You are the one claiming people are obsessed with specific issues but when people discuss other things you bring it back to the same old subjects every time.

Where did I say you're not allowed to do anything? My argument is if your angle to oppose Trump is to side with the psychotic warmongering consensus of the American political and media establishment (for instance, promoting their unhinged Russophobia) then you're part of the problem. I'm not accusing you or anyone of doing that, I'm accusing them of doing that.

[Paul Calf]

them

Ahh. Alles jezt klar

[Howj Begg]

https://www.politico.eu/article/donad-trump-nato-montenegro-defending-could-mean-world-war-iii/

U.S. President Donald Trump took another swipe at NATO Tuesday night, suggesting that sending troops to defend a small NATO ally from attack could end in disaster.

Asked in an interview with Fox News anchor Tucker Carlson why the U.S. should send troops to defend a small country such as Montenegro if it were attacked, Trump replied:  "I understand what you're saying, I've asked the same question. Montenegro is a tiny country with very strong people. They are very aggressive people, they may get aggressive, and congratulations, you're in World War III. But that's the way it was set up."

Trump's comments came after a European visit in which he threatened to pull out of NATO if allies didn't increase their defense spending, and a bilateral meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Helsinki.

Montenegro, which has a population of around 620

Completely irrelevant to what Putin might have said to him in that closed meeting, and utterly orthogonal to Putin's aims, of course.

[phantom_power]

Where did I say you're not allowed to do anything? My argument is if your angle to oppose Trump is to side with the psychotic warmongering consensus of the American political and media establishment (for instance, promoting their unhinged Russophobia) then you're part of the problem. I'm not accusing you or anyone of doing that, I'm accusing them of doing that.

Again, not sure why you said that in reply to my post then, which mentioned none of that

[manticore]

I just read this from the journalist Michael Tracey:

You'd probably never know it, but Putin actually criticized Trump at that press conference. For withdrawing from the Iran Deal. The weakening of which has been detrimental to Russia's interests. That's just policy though, so who cares

https://twitter.com/mtracey/status/1019440948319739904

Finding it difficult to find good information about this on the web. Anybody got any views?