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Graham Linetransexclusionary

Started by ieXush2i, March 08, 2018, 12:12:33 PM

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Twed

Quote from: madhair60 on March 08, 2018, 01:53:28 PM
Speaking for myself alone, I think the North Carolina bathroom thing is insane, I think people should be able to identify as whatever they want. It doesn't matter at all. But it wouldn't be rational of me to just dismiss the biology of the situation, would it? To just agree with someone saying something incorrect, to be polite. I'd like to know the best approach to all this. I have trans friends, I don't want to inadvertantly upset them, you know?
I don't think anybody is asking people to erase from their minds the physical biology of a transperson. But I don't think that's the argument. I think glinner's actual argument is "Women's rights are being erased by what I have decided are fake women". Women, as a whole being erased by one of the most vulnerable and at-risk groups in Western society. Women, who glinner uses as entry criteria into "the left" are apparently going to be damaged if the wrong people are included in their designation.

"But their experiences aren't the same as normal women's experiences!" - and a white Western wealthy woman's experiences are a million miles removed from a Delhi woman's experiences. Should we segregate based on race? Or just never be absolute fucking glinners?

I hate this conversation because it forces me to segregate in language to appeal to glinners. but: in what reality has a transwoman ever prevented a woman from being heard?

"TERF is a term used to silence women" is right up there with alt-right slogans about white identity, and the current hilarity of "neoliberal is a racist term".

ieXush2i

Quote from: Kelvin on March 08, 2018, 03:09:19 PM
I would also add that I don't think she comes across as a hateful bigot in that letter, even if I disagree with her views. Again, I think it's important to avoid that kind of hyperbole or righteous anger when talking about people who seem decent and mostly progressive, despite our disagreements.

It appears she co-edited a book called Transgender Children and Young People: Born in Your Own Body, which is very well reviewed on the website TransgenderTrend (banner: PARENTS QUESTIONING THE TRANSNARRATIVE), which seems to conflate children acting outside of historical gender roles with body dysmorphia. So a very well-presented bigot.

Kelvin

Quote from: (Ex poster) on March 08, 2018, 03:21:55 PM
It appears she co-edited a book called Transgender Children and Young People: Born in Your Own Body, which is very well reviewed on the website TransgenderTrend (banner: PARENTS QUESTIONING THE TRANSNARRATIVE), which seems to conflate children acting outside of historical gender roles with body dysmorphia. So a very well-presented bigot.

Fair enough, but I did specifically say she didn't come across as a bigot in that letter, because I didn't know if she had said something more offensive elsewhere.

madhair60

Quote from: Twed on March 08, 2018, 03:18:14 PM
I don't think anybody is asking people to erase from their minds the physical biology of a transperson. But I don't think that's the argument. I think glinner's actual argument is "Women's rights are being erased by what I have decided are fake women". Women, as a whole being erased by one of the most vulnerable and at-risk groups in Western society. Women, who glinner uses as entry criteria into "the left" are apparently going to be damaged if the wrong people are included in their designation.

"But their experiences aren't the same as normal women's experiences!" - and a white Western wealthy woman's experiences are a million miles removed from a Delhi woman's experiences. Should we segregate based on race? Or just never be absolute fucking glinners?

I hate this conversation because it forces me to segregate in language to appeal to glinners. but: in what reality has a transwoman ever prevented a woman from being heard?

"TERF is a term used to silence women" is right up there with alt-right slogans about white identity, and the current hilarity of "neoliberal is a racist term".

Alright thanks for clarifying. I'm not a particularly intelligent person and my reading comprehension is bad, so this really helps. Yeah, I'm not on board with that.

ieXush2i

Quote from: Kelvin on March 08, 2018, 03:27:54 PM
Fair enough, but I did specifically say she didn't come across as a bigot in that letter, because I didn't know if she had said something more offensive elsewhere.

I didn't mean it as a Kelvin slight, just that I had a feeling that open letter didn't tell the whole story at all.

Twed

Quote from: madhair60 on March 08, 2018, 03:29:15 PM
Alright thanks for clarifying. I'm not a particularly intelligent person and my reading comprehension is bad, so this really helps. Yeah, I'm not on board with that.
I could be wrong too, especially because I don't want to do much more than lightly skim anything written by glinnybuckets.

H-O-W-L

Quote from: Quote on March 08, 2018, 02:11:25 PMBut by all means go back through history and edit every single comedy show to remove anything that might offend anyone. If you were assaulted, then I'm very sorry and I'm sure Linehan had no intention of upsetting you. And neither did I. It's entirely possible to feel humility for a marginalized subgroup whilst still thinking that the people looking to be offended on their behalf are humourless dicks.

Not a single person is implying this. Fuck off.

You're evidently all for freedom of speech via art... but, in expressing this view you are genuinely equally against freedom of speech by saying that any criticism of something deemed dodgy or insulting is trying to censor, and thus should be shut down.

Every time someone says "hey, that episode was pretty fucking homophobic wasn't it?" about something old, some sanctimonious arse-miner like yourself has to crop up out of the woodwork and parrot this bullshit about how it's PC GONE MAD, YOU CAN'T TURN BACK THE CLOCK, DON'T CRITICIZE IT, IT HAPPENED, SKUHREEEEEE!!!

If something's shit and has shithouse views I'm going to criticize it. It's my right to do so, just as much as it was the right of the producer to be a turd, have turd views, and publish his turd views in his turd work. It's not about 'censorship', it's about calling a cunt a cunt.

If you've got a problem with that, fuck off to a country that has state censorship and no internet, you daft cunt.

Kane Jones

Quote from: H-O-W-L on March 08, 2018, 03:47:23 PM
If you've got a problem with that, fuck off to a country that has state censorship and no internet, you daft cunt.

bit racist

H-O-W-L

Quote from: Kane Jones on March 08, 2018, 03:50:34 PM
bit racist

I'm a card-carrying hater of the Snorks, I'm sorry. They've had me tagged.

Quote

Why even open up a debate when there's clearly only one correct opinion and if you don't subscribe to it then you're a nazi?

Also, fuck off. If you want a reasoned debate then don't be a rude fucking cunt to everyone who disagrees with you.

Twed

Quote from: Quote on March 08, 2018, 03:52:47 PM
Why even open up a debate when there's clearly only one correct opinion and if you don't subscribe to it then you're a nazi?

Also, fuck off. If you want a reasoned debate then don't be a rude fucking cunt to everyone who disagrees with you.
Maybe calling somebody transgressive is no more offensive and limiting than calling somebody overly-sensitive and PC. As H-O-W-L points out, freedom of speech allocates airtime for both views.

Your reaction is based in the idea that being called out on outdated views means some kind of war is being waged against your kind.

H-O-W-L

Quote from: Quote on March 08, 2018, 03:52:47 PM
Why even open up a debate when there's clearly only one correct opinion and if you don't subscribe to it then you're a nazi?

That's not remotely what I'm saying, I'm saying that this discussion isn't "Gorsh, we should stuff The IT Crowd down the memory hole and erase it from everyone's minds with a special gun", it's "Hey that was kind of fucked up, wasn't it?". Futile as such a discussion may be, the participants of this thread have every right to do so. Just as you have every right to yell at them in dissent.

What I find objectionable is your reverse-censorship logic that implies that merely discussing the contentiousness of a subject must be silenced, lest it be 'censorship' of an artist's vision, which it clearly fucking isn't, because in order to go 'That one episode of the IT Crowd was shit' we have to acknowledge that it exists, and usually back it up with evidence.

Don't fucking espouse this 'font of knowledge' (font of arse more like) about how we now Must Censor All Shit, Surely, Because It's PC Gone Mad. It's not, mate. Nobody's putting a Luger to your dome or snapping the manacles on in Stalag 13 because you said 'Fanny' and it sounded a bit like the T-word because of a passing bus.

Actually put up a fight if you're going to get into the ring.


Quote
Also, fuck off. If you want a reasoned debate then don't be a rude, fucking cunt to everyone who disagrees with you.

Your rhetoric removed reason from the debate long before I came in.

ieXush2i

Quote from: Quote on March 08, 2018, 03:52:47 PM
Why even open up a debate when there's clearly only one correct opinion and if you don't subscribe to it then you're a nazi?

Also, fuck off. If you want a reasoned debate then don't be a rude fucking cunt to everyone who disagrees with you.

You appear to be the rude one, irate that people would have an opinion different to yours, in fairness. I and others have pointed out that voicing criticism of something is not censorship, but you've overlooked this to continue arguing that.

I have to say that this discussion is going better than I expected

Funcrusher

Quote from: Quote on March 08, 2018, 03:52:47 PM
Why even open up a debate when there's clearly only one correct opinion and if you don't subscribe to it then you're a nazi?


Because the purpose of this thread is to show once again what a towering moral exemplar the thread starter is.

Quote

*PIG*

No, you're first reply implied I was some kind of 1970's Bernard Manning throwback for having a different opinion, then the second time I tried to reply I was a gamergate-r (something I have no opinion, knowledge or interest in) (it may not have been you who said this, apols if so)...

I just found the idea that anyone who doesn't share you're opinion must be a borderline-nazi rather offensive. I don't even care that much about the issue tbh.

BeardFaceMan

I think the (incorrect) point being (badly) made is that by criticising something in the past not for its artistic merit but because its socially harmful and wrong to have people portrayed that way because attitudes have changed in the present, you are in favour of stopping such comedy being made in the future.

If you watch a 70s sitcom where everyone was racist and you criticise the show for that and the outdated values that doesnt mean youre not allowed to make jokes about race anymore.

H-O-W-L

Quote from: Quote on March 08, 2018, 04:08:11 PM
No, you're first reply implied I was some kind of 1970's Bernard Manning throwback for having a different opinion, then the second time I tried to reply I was a gamergate-r (something I have no opinion, knowledge or interest in) (it may not have been you who said this, apols if so)...

When the fuck did I say any of this, mate? Get your eyes checked, you're talking to someone different right now.

EDIT: I need my eyes checked again too, you admitted this. Oopsy. Either way, you get the picture.

ieXush2i

Quote from: Quote on March 08, 2018, 04:08:11 PM
*PIG*

No, you're first reply implied I was some kind of 1970's Bernard Manning throwback for having a different opinion

Nope, I was pointing out that your "it's just jokes" defence is weak as it can be used to defend any kind of hateful shite. Not calling you a Manning at all, I don't know how you got that from what I wrote.

Quotethen the second time I tried to reply I was a gamergate-r (something I have no opinion, knowledge or interest in) (it may not have been you who said this, apols if so)...

It wasn't.

QuoteI just found the idea that anyone who doesn't share you're opinion must be a borderline-nazi rather offensive. I don't even care that much about the issue tbh.

Except I can distinguish between people who hold transphobic views (which I and anyone else are entitled to disagree with) and Nazis (or Nazi-adjacents). You're now playing your censorship accusations I notice as they've been pointed out as the nonsense they are.

Quote

I wasn't even trying to 'play' anything.

I merely responded in a half-arsed manner to a (IMO) trivial, attention-seeking thread which is more about you confirming your own sense of moral superiority then it is the issue itself, but whatever.

EDIT: Apologies, that was rude and unnecessary. It's an issue that's clearly outside my experience and if I offended anyone I'm sorry. Disregard my half-formed opinions on this subject.

Quote from: Quote on March 08, 2018, 04:40:51 PM
I wasn't even trying to 'play' anything.

(I think he meant to type 'downplaying', i.e. 'You're now downplaying your censorship accusations..)

Mr. Etiquette

I think this is the first thing I've ever agreed with the (usually intolerable) Graham Lineman on. Trans women aren't real women, and vice versa with men. It's biology, not too hard to grasp, but seemingly a giant reach the good people at Cookd and Bombd.


Quote from: Mr. Etiquette on March 08, 2018, 04:42:23 PM
I think this is the first thing I've ever agreed with the (usually intolerable) Graham Lineman on. Trans women aren't real women, and vice versa with men. It's biology, not too hard to grasp, but seemingly a giant reach the good people at Cookd and Bombd.

Biology isn't the be-all and end-all when it comes to self-identification though. Gender and sex are distinct things.

This is a bit like that bit in This Life where....wait who's playing Miles and who's playing Anna?

Cuellar

Quote from: Mr. Etiquette on March 08, 2018, 04:42:23 PM
I think this is the first thing I've ever agreed with the (usually intolerable) Graham Lineman on. Trans women aren't real women, and vice versa with men. It's biology, not too hard to grasp, but seemingly a giant reach the good people at Cookd and Bombd.

Well that's that cleared up then.

Cheers!

ieXush2i

Quote from: Monsieur Verdoux on March 08, 2018, 04:42:08 PM
(I think he meant to type 'downplaying', i.e. 'You're now downplaying your censorship accusations..)

I did indeed, as should be obvious from context

ieXush2i

Quote from: Mr. Etiquette on March 08, 2018, 04:42:23 PM
I think this is the first thing I've ever agreed with the (usually intolerable) Graham Lineman on. Trans women aren't real women, and vice versa with men. It's biology, not too hard to grasp, but seemingly a giant reach the good people at Cookd and Bombd.

hate to break it to ya but

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

on its own disproves the biological essentialism argument


ieXush2i

#89
A couple of CaB posters were uncomfortable with the trans ep in 2010 but got short shrift:
https://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,24371.msg1301954.html#msg1301954

sample quote:

QuoteHow about you respond to my point and explain why a woman being punched in the face is worse than anyone else being punched in the face?