Main Menu

Tip jar

If you like CaB and wish to support it, you can use PayPal or KoFi. Thank you, and I hope you continue to enjoy the site - Neil.

Buy Me a Coffee at ko-fi.com

Support CaB

Recent

Welcome to Cook'd and Bomb'd. Please login or sign up.

March 28, 2024, 12:26:35 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Roseanne

Started by MortSahlFan, March 27, 2018, 04:11:45 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

checkoutgirl

Quote from: Desirable Industrial Unit on March 28, 2018, 03:49:31 AM
It could have been a disaster, but was happily just a drink of water.

I have other stuff to watch and would need a bit better than that to be bothered with this.

SavageHedgehog

Quite good as drama and certainly has cultural/time capsule value but I thought the humour was fairly hackneyed. Jokes about Hillary's pant suits, taking the knee etc.

Kelvin

Quote from: daf on March 29, 2018, 11:52:31 AM
Roseanne voted Trump. Which is just fucking stupid,

My reaction was to object to this, too. Roseanne was anti-corporate, anti-Republican, socially liberal and eager to see a woman president.

On the other hand, there has been a huge swathe of time since then, and it's not inconceivable that the character would be in a different place now, or that she would have been caught up in the belief that Trump would be different from all the other politicians.

j_u_d_a_s

Quote from: Kelvin on April 02, 2018, 12:59:05 AM
My reaction was to object to this, too. Roseanne was anti-corporate, anti-Republican, socially liberal and eager to see a woman president.

On the other hand, there has been a huge swathe of time since then, and it's not inconceivable that the character would be in a different place now, or that she would have been caught up in the belief that Trump would be different from all the other politicians.

This is partly my main problem with it. Lot of time has passed since then yet there's still the same combative dynamic between Darlene and Becky who are both in their middle ages but still bicker like teens.

But mostly my issue with it is that Roseanne Barr is an actual millionaire now. And the line at the end of that first episode about Jackie wanting universal healthcare because "she's a good hearted person who can't do simple math" is just... the idea of a working class character, played by a rich actor, repeating the kind of reductive bullshit line you'd expect to hear from a Fox news anchor leaves a very sour taste in the mouth.

newbridge

The in-universe characters are firmly middle class though. It fits the traditional Republican myth of culturally "working class" but financially secure people in the Midwest being the "working class" (sort of like the other big working class sitcom of the 90s, Home Improvement, about a professional television presenter). Of course, the true working class is overwhelmingly Democratic or politically apathetic and is largely invisible in all forms of media.

Kelvin

Quote from: j_u_d_a_s on April 02, 2018, 03:13:42 AM
This is partly my main problem with it. Lot of time has passed since then yet there's still the same combative dynamic between Darlene and Becky who are both in their middle ages but still bicker like teens.

But mostly my issue with it is that Roseanne Barr is an actual millionaire now. And the line at the end of that first episode about Jackie wanting universal healthcare because "she's a good hearted person who can't do simple math" is just... the idea of a working class character, played by a rich actor, repeating the kind of reductive bullshit line you'd expect to hear from a Fox news anchor leaves a very sour taste in the mouth.

I haven't seen the episode yet. I was just saying that it's not impossible that the character would have changed over time to make it not "out of character".

To be honest, the had an increasingly unpleasant view of working class people even in it's last few series. Roseanne went from an incredibly hard working woman (at home and at work), to one who was proud of her laziness and ignorance. It went from being about the decency and struggle of the family to laughing at their backwards ways. They even went from describing themselves at middle class, to describing themselves as "white trash".

Presumably Roseanne herself had a change of heart about what the family stood for, and although I haven't seen this new episode, maybe that latter perspective is still the one that defines the show.     

Famous Mortimer

The real Roseanne is, apparently, a fairly horrible Republican sort these days, which is a bit of a surprise after she ran for President on a socialist ticket in 2012. It is a shame to see a show which presented working class people in a "realistic" light to come back just to do this - still relatively funny but unpleasant and cynical at its core. I'm surprised the rest of the cast agreed to do it (I can't imagine Gilbert or Goodman need the cash).

They have a black character and a gender-non-conforming one, and I presume neither of them will say "the President you support doesn't think our lives are as valuable as yours" at any point. Or perhaps this is a long-term con job from the still-left-wing Roseanne.

j_u_d_a_s

Roseanne Barr is a full on conspiracy theorist too, recently tweeting that Donald Trump was responsible for breaking up child sex slave rings. And then there's her anti-semitism which makes that fucking pug video look tame.

There's always been rumours about what happened on set during seasons 8-9, Barr got more and more controlling and according to one rumour came up with the lottery story because no network wanted her take on Absolutely Fabulous. So she made her own show into it instead, complete with Edina and Patsy cameo. And in 2008 she was lashing out at John Goodman calling him a terrible actor and saying how she had to cover for his alcoholism and coke binges. (Don't know enough to gauge how much of that is true tbh. Probably some truth to it but take with a massive pinch of salt)

Then there's this utterly depressing article by Barr from 2011. I remember feeling despair that Barr came across so bitter even despite all the success it brought her. Again, probably a grain of truth in some of what she's claiming but there's a stunning lack of self awareness in this quote:

QuoteI grabbed a pair of wardrobe scissors and ran up to the big house to confront the producer. (The "big house" was what I called the writers' building. I rarely went there, since it was disgusting. Within minutes, one of the writers would crack a stinky-pussy joke that would make me want to murder them. Male writers have zero interest in being nice to women, including their own assistants, few of whom are ever promoted to the rank of "writer," even though they do all the work while the guys sit on their asses taking the credit. Those are the women who deserve the utmost respect.) I walked into this woman's office, held the scissors up to show her I meant business, and said, "Bitch, do you want me to cut you?" We stood there for a second or two, just so I could make sure she was receptive to my POV. I asked why she had told the wardrobe master to not listen to me, and she said, "Because we do not like the way you choose to portray this character." I said, "This is no fucking character! This is my show, and I created it—not Matt, and not Carsey-Werner, and not ABC. You watch me. I will win this battle if I have to kill every last white bitch in high heels around here."

But perhaps the most depressing thing about the new Roseanne is Sara Gilbert's milktoast "it's not about politics" response to being asked how she felt when she found out the Conner family were Trump supporters now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYugtmLZem4
I'm sure it's just a stock media trained response so as not to upset the crazies but the original series still stands up as one of the most groundbreaking shows during a time when US sitcoms were about how middle class families love each other. Obviously there's still a lot of this season to come but I don't see how it can retain that authentic voice of the underclass it once had.

Quote from: Famous Mortimer on April 02, 2018, 05:52:42 AM
The real Roseanne is, apparently, a fairly horrible Republican sort these days, which is a bit of a surprise after she ran for President on a socialist ticket in 2012. It is a shame to see a show which presented working class people in a "realistic" light to come back just to do this - still relatively funny but unpleasant and cynical at its core. I'm surprised the rest of the cast agreed to do it (I can't imagine Gilbert or Goodman need the cash).

They have a black character and a gender-non-conforming one, and I presume neither of them will say "the President you support doesn't think our lives are as valuable as yours" at any point. Or perhaps this is a long-term con job from the still-left-wing Roseanne.

Trump first tried to run for President in 2000 on a socialist ticket. His key policy was universal healthcare:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_presidential_campaign,_2000

It's almost as if these moneyed assholes have no genuine scruples or belief system and just follow the hot populist agenda to screw the rubes out of money and power.

Almost as if.

Sin Agog

Roseanne mangled her brain in a car crash decades ago.  It's a sad statement about the left's (me) lack of empathy that the only reason I can muster up for her current Trump support is latent after-effects of brain damage.

newbridge

I'm not really offended by Roseanne's political views because it's seemed like common knowledge for years now that she is totally bonkers.

Kelvin

Quote from: Famous Mortimer on April 02, 2018, 05:52:42 AM
The real Roseanne is, apparently, a fairly horrible Republican sort these days, which is a bit of a surprise after she ran for President on a socialist ticket in 2012. It is a shame to see a show which presented working class people in a "realistic" light to come back just to do this - still relatively funny but unpleasant and cynical at its core. I'm surprised the rest of the cast agreed to do it (I can't imagine Gilbert or Goodman need the cash).

They have a black character and a gender-non-conforming one, and I presume neither of them will say "the President you support doesn't think our lives are as valuable as yours" at any point. Or perhaps this is a long-term con job from the still-left-wing Roseanne.

She was still promoting socialism in interviews during the Trump campaign, and I think she rolled back on her support for him after a bit. I don't know where she stands now, but I get the sense she's just all over the place, really, and buys into any stuff that opposes authority; hence her pizzagate views, her initial support for Trump, and her interest in socialism. She's basically a female Biggy.

bgmnts

Quote from: Sin Agog on April 02, 2018, 11:48:51 AM
Roseanne mangled her brain in a car crash decades ago.  It's a sad statement about the left's (me) lack of empathy that the only reason I can muster up for her current Trump support is latent after-effects of brain damage.

To be fair its well known that if you are a socialist or left leaning and then come into a bit of money you become right wing.

Like a caterpiller turning into a butterfly. A butterfly with Bem Franklin's head on it.

Kelvin

I mean, here she is during the 2016 elections, talking about her support for (specific) socialist polices, including healthcare, and asking people to let "vampire capitalism" die: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnxZskltvQA

But she's bounced around all over the shop with her arguments and support, and honestly, I think she just likes speaking with authority on whatever talking points have captured her imagination recently. Maybe that's unfair, maybe it's generous. But I honestly think she just likes to oppose the received wisdom, and any and all authority.

Quote from: Kelvin on April 03, 2018, 04:23:45 AM
I mean, here she is during the 2016 elections, talking about her support for (specific) socialist polices, including healthcare, and asking people to let "vampire capitalism" die: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnxZskltvQA

lol at fuckwit Dave Rubin in that clip trying to avoid engaging with any of her left-wing points and also desperately trying to pivot towards platitudes like "the media just divides people right?". guy is such a spineless hack

Kelvin

Quote from: Monsieur Verdoux on April 03, 2018, 04:46:07 AM
lol at fuckwit Dave Rubin in that clip trying to avoid engaging with any of her left-wing points and also desperately trying to pivot towards platitudes like "the media just divides people right?". guy is such a spineless hack

Yes, he's an absolute twat. I only know about the clip because I occasionally go through spates of watching tons of Roseanne related stuff.

it is quite an interesting clip as she seems very unfiltered there. really sincere and really all over the place. can't help but like her

Kelvin

Quote from: Monsieur Verdoux on April 03, 2018, 04:58:20 AM
it is quite an interesting clip as she seems very unfiltered there. really sincere and really all over the place. can't help but like her

I mean, that is Roseanne. Always has been. She has no filter, really.

When I was looking for that clip, I also came across this newer one, from just before the revival aired:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BMhKFNoG94

and as you say, she's refreshingly open.

j_u_d_a_s

Latest episode is leaning towards some pretty dodgy messaging. Main thrust of the plot is that kids are lazy, entitled and not to be trusted. It also manages to erase a large part of the original Roseanne's messaging.

Could get into it but here's a couple of articles that can better articulate my issues with it.

Bit of backstory (or Roseanne 'canon' if you insist) - https://tv.avclub.com/a-personal-roseanne-episode-mirrors-its-star-s-fluid-re-1798235058

QuoteThe fifth-season Roseanne episode "Wait Till Your Father Gets Home" premièred on February 9, 1993... ...In season four, working mother Roseanne Connor and her sister Jackie (played by Laurie Metcalf) discovered that their father had been openly cheating on their mother for years, which led them to reflect on what a shit he'd been to them all their lives, the way he belittled them as women, and all the times he physically abused them. In "Wait Till Your Father Gets Home," Roseanne and Jackie learn that their father has died, and they fret over the funeral arrangements while trying to figure out whether to be civil to their dad's longtime mistress, Joan (Kay Arnold).

...But there are also moments of real heft in "Wait Till Your Father Gets Home." Jackie admits she blames Roseanne because she turned the family against their dad, and confesses that she wishes she'd gotten to spend more time with this man she loved before he died. "When did you love him more?" Roseanne hisses back. "When he'd come home and beat us with a belt, or when he didn't come home at all?" Later, when Roseanne meets with Joan, the mistress explains that Roseanne's father thought of himself as a devoted family man, whose kids were distant toward him because he'd spoiled them rotten. "If by spoiled, you mean wrecked," Roseanne snaps, angry that her father died without ever owning up to what he did to her, even to the woman with whom he'd been the most intimate.

And a write up of the latest episode (heavy on the spoilers if you care about that kind of thing) - https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/04/roseanne-revival-season-10-episode-2-spanking-conservative-politics-darlene-harris-abuse

QuoteOne thing she never made a habit of, though, was spanking her children. And her reasoning was extremely well established: as the characters make clear through multiple seasons, Roseanne and her sister, Jackie, were abused by their father. The one time Roseanne was ever shown spanking one of her children, her outburst ended with a tearful apology—which is why the central plot of Tuesday's installment of the rebooted series felt misguided at best, and like a forced expression of conservative talking points at worst.

Quote from: j_u_d_a_s on April 05, 2018, 01:56:47 PM
Latest episode is leaning towards some pretty dodgy messaging. Main thrust of the plot is that kids are lazy, entitled and not to be trusted. It also manages to erase a large part of the original Roseanne's messaging.


Or people change over time? Get more reactionary? And other clichés.

j_u_d_a_s

Quote from: dontrunyoullfall on April 05, 2018, 02:20:41 PM
Or people change over time? Get more reactionary? And other clichés.

Which would have at least made for an interesting episode. The old series used to explore topics like this thoroughly, but this episode feels like straight up lecturing.

Twed

Quote from: j_u_d_a_s on April 05, 2018, 01:56:47 PM
Latest episode is leaning towards some pretty dodgy messaging. Main thrust of the plot is that kids are lazy, entitled and not to be trusted. It also manages to erase a large part of the original Roseanne's messaging.
Yes, episode 3 was "cuh, millennials!" (she's not a millennial technically but it's the same thing).

BTW it's okay to find Harris hot, she's not actually 15. Don't worry about any feelings that shower scene gave you.

http://www.zimbio.com/photos/Emma+Kenney/Emma+Kenney+Takes+Dog+Salon/n3TS2rnrgrZ

Move over, Ariel Winter.

Pdine

Quote from: Kelvin on April 02, 2018, 12:59:05 AM
My reaction was to object to this, too. Roseanne was anti-corporate, anti-Republican, socially liberal and eager to see a woman president.

She's also married to a zombie which is extremely open-minded.

Twed

Quote from: Kelvin on April 02, 2018, 12:59:05 AM
My reaction was to object to this, too. Roseanne was anti-corporate, anti-Republican, socially liberal and eager to see a woman president.

On the other hand, there has been a huge swathe of time since then, and it's not inconceivable that the character would be in a different place now, or that she would have been caught up in the belief that Trump would be different from all the other politicians.
She has some nutty opinions, but I think it's mainly that she takes being a contrarian to ridiculous lengths.

I think Roseanne's political posture is essentially bad, but I am also not enjoying the Hashtag Resistance's dumb trashing of this show simply because she supported Trump. I'd prefer Roseanne attempting a spotty representation of the working-class mindset than literally all media being the domain of "Obama is perfect" liberals.

MortSahlFan

It doesn't seem like the same show.. It trivializes the "American Experience" without any great writing... Seems like topics were taken from 15-your old kids from Twitter.

Famous Mortimer

Quote from: Twed on April 05, 2018, 03:27:02 PM
She has some nutty opinions, but I think it's mainly that she takes being a contrarian to ridiculous lengths.

I think Roseanne's political posture is essentially bad, but I am also not enjoying the Hashtag Resistance's dumb trashing of this show simply because she supported Trump. I'd prefer Roseanne attempting a spotty representation of the working-class mindset than literally all media being the domain of "Obama is perfect" liberals.
I think that's a very reductionist way of looking at the great number of people who've trashed the show.

Twed

The inclusion criteria isn't "the great number of people who've trashed the show", it's "the people who have done the thing that I have described". So no, it is not reductionist. I have soured on the show myself.

olliebean

Quote from: j_u_d_a_s on April 05, 2018, 01:56:47 PM
Latest episode is leaning towards some pretty dodgy messaging. Main thrust of the plot is that kids are lazy, entitled and not to be trusted.

And that physically assaulting a child is not only an acceptable punishment, but also a funny joke. I'm out.

j_u_d_a_s

Quote from: olliebean on April 05, 2018, 11:09:26 PM
And that physically assaulting a child is not only an acceptable punishment, but also a funny joke. I'm out.

Yeah the audience reaction to that, genuine or otherwise, was really uncomfortable to sit through.

newbridge

Quote from: Twed on April 05, 2018, 03:27:02 PM
the working-class mindset

Isn't that the main criticism of the show? I mean the "working class" overwhelmingly supported Clinton. The argument is that the show is perpetuating coastal ignorance about who and what the Midwestern "working class" are, which is also a frequent problem with the self-designated Left to be honest.

Though, as I posited previously in this thread, I don't think Roseanne was ever about the working class. It is a show about a Midwestern firmly middle class family (didn't they start multiple small businesses over the course of the original series?) Maybe I'm misremembering the original run since I probably last watched it in syndication 15+ years ago, but people seem to be lionizing it as some ultra progressive, hilariously brilliant show, which I don't really remember. Haven't seen the third episode yet, but the storyline from Ep01-02 about "if you act feminine you will get your ass kicked, but we'll love you anyways at the end of the day" was directly lifted from one of the Halloween episode with DJ. The reason I liked the original show is because it is funny for a network sitcom and because it actually seems real and relatable as a depiction of a Midwestern middle class family.