Fuck off

[Sebastian Cobb]

TELL ME THE RULES SO I CAN LIVE!

[greenman]

I would point out as well that despite being quite politically aware I do not research every purchase I make to be sure it isn't sourced from some abusive sweat shop/factory. I tend to think that's something that simply has to come down to tighter public regulation which in the case of pornography is you could argue ultimately held back by it being kept as taboo. The only regulation we seem to get much talk of from politicians and the media here is based more on judgements of other peoples sexuality(ban this sick flith, etc) rather than whether the production of the material actually harmed anyone.

Beyond the reach of Morris perhaps you could argue CaB does tend to have a bit of a "blokeish" nature? I mean outside of the handful of trolls things don't tend to get openly abusive compared to much of the net but equally this is a forum with a lot of one-upmanship built into it, not really somewhere you very casually state opinions and don't expect them to be challenged, you'll pretty often have to stand up to what you post.

Indeed if anything reading that porn thread seems to go along with the comment made somewhere here a few weeks/months ago that "blokey" talk about sex is really not very sexual at all.

[a duncandisorderly]

[manticore]

Indeed if anything reading that porn thread seems to go along with the comment made somewhere here a few weeks/months ago that "blokey" talk about sex is really not very sexual at all.

Do you mean that the blokey talk about sex is more about competition between men than actually about sexual feelings about women?

[greenman]

Do you mean that the blokey talk about sex is more about competition between men than actually about sexual feelings about women?

I spose you could say that, maybe in the form of a lack of admission of any emotional weakness?

I mean I can't really talk, I'm pretty terrible at any kind of personal emotional discussion on the net and many other threads here including 1-2 about sex do go in absolute the opposite direction being very personal and adult.

Maybe you could argue that shift between extremes is somehow more geared to having male forum users?

[Emma Raducanu]

I dunno. I work with 9 men for 50 hours a week and this place seems very un-blokey by comparison and for that, I am grateful.

[Clownbaby]

I haven't been here that long and I haven't really had a problem with anything (yet?) I don't read the porn thread so I don't know what people are saying about my fellow women but I know I can be fairly crass myself when I'm in the right company. I have come here from the cross section of the internet that is Reddit, so compared to the absolute drama and hostility that goes down over there this forum is a pussy cat as far as I'm concerned

[Ferris]

I haven't been here that long and I haven't really had a problem with anything (yet?) I don't read the porn thread so I don't know what people are saying about my fellow women but I know I can be fairly crass myself when I'm in the right company. I have come here from the cross section of the internet that is Reddit, so compared to the absolute drama and hostility that goes down over there this forum is a pussy cat as far as I'm concerned

I came over from reddit (which I still use for very select things), and before that 10+ years on 4chan before it started to get all weird and angry circa 2015.

The idea that someone could complain about a comment that made them uncomfortable, then have the named user turn up, explain he was posting in character, apologize, then retire the account for good measure as a show of contrition would be unheard of in most other corners of the internet.

It really is kind of a uniquely pleasant forum, all things considered.

[Clownbaby]

I came over from reddit (which I still use for very select things), and before that 10+ years on 4chan before it started to get all weird and angry circa 2015.

The idea that someone could complain about a comment that made them uncomfortable, then have the named user turn up, explain he was posting in character, apologize, then retire the account for good measure as a show of contrition would be unheard of in most other corners of the internet.

It really is kind of a uniquely pleasant forum, all things considered.

Yeah. I've had people on here say "oh sorry I just skimmed your post and didn't see that, my bad" rather than blindly argue and bend everything I replied with out of context. That's unheard of on Reddit.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I haven't been here that long and I haven't really had a problem with anything (yet?) I don't read the porn thread so I don't know what people are saying about my fellow women but I know I can be fairly crass myself when I'm in the right company. I have come here from the cross section of the internet that is Reddit, so compared to the absolute drama and hostility that goes down over there this forum is a pussy cat as far as I'm concerned

For some reason the important aspect of perspective has been overlooked by several people during these discussions, not only that but the perhaps subtle nuance that asking for proportion and perspective does not equal ganging up on an individual/outright dismissal of their opinions/personal abuse/an assertion everything is just fine. I think we've got there in the end but it was looking borderline for a little while.

[Zetetic]

People have got to (re)learn the difference between sex and gender. An vital distinction is lost otherwise and people won't be able to think.

Why do you think this is relevant here? I'm not sure that bit of flotemysost's post would make any sense if you were trying to explicitly talk about biological sex the exclusion of gender - it seemed to be about how people of different genders might or might not tend to have different responses and views about porn.

(This isn't meant to be a nasty post, but a curious one. I'm wondering what you were thinking.)

For reference:

I appreciate some people aren't into porn, or are turned off by ethical issues or the risk of over-reliance/addiction, but again I think that can apply to both genders

'Both sexes' still leaves open the problem that Cloud was putting forward (that not everyone fits into either category even if the vast majority of people do, noting that the issues are different for sex and gender here).

[Zetetic]

Absolutely not if the complaint can be demonstrated to be either/or unjust/ill-proportioned.

I don't think that undoes the fact of someone's reported experience, however much you might ultimately judge the complaint as 'unjust' or 'ill-proportioned'.

I agree that someone feeling that they've been done badly to on the basis of this or that characteristic doesn't prove the existence of a problem as they've described it, but it's still worrying that they feel like that.

Vaguely related, I think, is that we had a response or two somewhere in the last several pages along of the lines of "I don't think that you are making this type of argument against x" followed by a diatribe against this argument that no-one was making (and the poster even acknowledged that no one was making). There's something weird about identity and arguments when someone feelings compelled to rebut something that no one actually advanced, seemingly mostly because it let them draw a strawperson-in-dungarees into the picture.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Re the second paragraph, I thought we had been over this. Just as other people may have strawmanned I don't recall anyone stating that a complaint or the person behind it should be dismissed outright. I am sad someone feels like that and my attempt to understand why leads to investigating why that may be, testing my own beliefs and potential preconceptions in the process. That's not dismissal, that's the opposite. It's more about drawing enough information to make an informed judgement, which is where perspective comes in. Is Janie Jones personally upset isn't the same question as Is CaB an intolerably misogynistic forum/is CaB more misogynistic than other places/Does CaB need to do more to attract women, which I would give you three different answers for.

[Zetetic]

Fair enough - I should have recognised that you've said as much.

I don't feel that this thread has managed that... complexity. But that is, of course, my own judgement and I'll confess I feel like I don't know how to help bring it towards that point - so I'll be quiet.

[manticore]

Why do you think this is relevant here? I'm not sure that bit of flotemysost's post would make any sense if you were trying to explicitly talk about biological sex the exclusion of gender - it seemed to be about how people of different genders might or might not tend to have different responses and views about porn.

I'm wondering what are the different genders you are talking about? Man, women and intersex people may have different responses to porn for a lot of different reasons to do with their positions in society.

flotemysost said:

I can only speak for myself, but I'm pretty sure most women do all or at least some of these things on a pretty regular basis - I appreciate some people aren't into porn, or are turned off by ethical issues or the risk of over-reliance/addiction, but again I think that can apply to both genders (I know quite a few men who feel that way).

That seems to be talking about the sexes of men and women (my belief as I understand things at the moment is that there are three sexes - male, female and intersex) but she used the word 'gender'.

Edit: I made that post because of all the thousands of occasions when I've heard people in the world mixing up the terms 'sex' and 'gender'.

[Zetetic]

I'm wondering what are the different genders you are talking about?

Mostly 'male' and 'female' (that is, people who identify as 'men' and 'women', prefer 'he' and 'she' to be used of them and so on).

Man, women and intersex people may have different responses to porn for a lot of different reasons to do with their positions in society.

Sure, but mostly people are aware of other people's sex through their gender. (Insofar as - for example - most people who identify and present as men are biologically male, and societally the gender is tied up with the sex.)

And people might respond to porn differently - in the context of making posts about it on a forum - based on their own view of themselves and how they should relate to pornography and sex and so on, including their gender.

That was my understanding of flotemysost's post.

That seems to be talking about the sexes of men and women but she used the word 'gender'.

What I'm unsure about is why you think that's about sex (and not gender?). It's not about immediate physiological responses, but about complex behaviours and attitudes.

I'm a bit confused, given the emphasis you're placing on not confusing the two terms. I feel like I must be missing something extremely obvious.

[a duncandisorderly]

Mostly 'male' and 'female' (that is, people who identify as 'men' and 'women', prefer 'he' and 'she' to be used of them and so on).
Sure, but mostly people are aware of other people's sex through their gender. (Insofar as - for example - most people who identify and present as men are biologically male, and societally the gender is tied up with the sex.)

And people might respond to porn differently - in the context of making posts about it on a forum - based on their own view of themselves and how they should relate to pornography and sex and so on, including their gender.

That was my understanding of flotemysost's post.
What I'm unsure about is why you think that's about sex (and not gender?). It's not about immediate physiological responses, but about complex behaviours and attitudes.

I'm a bit confused, given the emphasis you're placing on not confusing the two terms. I feel like I must be missing something extremely obvious.

silly me... I thought it was the "both" that was the problem here, & not the word after it.

[Zetetic]

Yes, that was Cloud's point. This is a slightly different discussion, born from my confusion about manticore's suggestion.

I think that 'gender' makes the most sense there (and you can worry about 'both' if you like).

[a duncandisorderly]

Yes, that was Cloud's point. This is a different discussion, born from my confusion about manticore's suggestion.

oh, ok. ta.

[manticore]

Mostly 'male' and 'female' (that is, people who identify as 'men' and 'women', prefer 'he' and 'she' to be used of them and so on).

Men and women are sexes though - they are biological. The things that we can challenge and hope to change are matters of gender like 'masculine' and 'feminine', social and cultural creations. I'm a man but I don't want to be constricted by social ideas about 'masculinity'. i don't 'identify' as a man, I am one biologically. I would like society to change so that men and women aren't constricted by gender roles.

It seems to me that if re're going to critique society in the hope of changing it and not just finding another identity within it, we have to be clear about these distinctions. That's my interest in the matter.

[Zetetic]

Men and women are sexes though - they are biological.

They're also gender identities. They're both biological description and socially-informed identities - the social construction is built around the sexes.

(In practice, for most people most of the time, they're arguably more gender identities than sexes - insofar as most people you meet, you won't investigate their essential physiological sexual characteristics or their genetic sex.)

i don't 'identify' as a man, I am one biologically.

Both, I imagine. To pick the trivial things that people frequently use in practice to determine gender (and assume someone's sex) at a distance: Do you wear skirts? Do you wear makeup? How long do you keep your hair?

You might not think much about presenting yourself as a man, but I'd be surprised if you don't present yourself with the various trapping of malehood that are socially-constructed. That's the position that I'm in anyway¹. (I might well be ignorant of how liberated you are from gender-in-our-society.)

It seems to me that if re're going to critique society in the hope of changing it and not just finding another identity within it, we have to be clear about these distinctions. That's my interest in the matter.

Sure. Someone's attitudes about porn are, I suggest, likely to be mediated both by how they've been encouraged to think about themselves in terms of sexuality and sexual identity, and their physiological responses. The first of these could involve gender differences and the second might be about 'innate' sex differences.

That's why I think flotemysost's suggestion only really makes sense if it's about gender, and not (just) about sex.

(I note there's probably a great deal of circularity here - each one reinforces the other, eventually at least - which complicates things a bit.)

^{1. Now that I've cut my hair.}

[manticore]

They're also gender identities. They're both biological description and socially-informed identities - the social construction is built around the sexes.

Yes indeed, the social construction is built around the sexes. The social construction is gender, it's things like masculinity or femininity. Being a man or woman isn't an identity. We can hope to emancipate the sexes from the constraints of gender, not from their biological sex.

[Zetetic]

I don't think that's how people use "man" and "woman", at least not now in the context of focusing on gender and sex.

(A "trans man" is a type of "man" - a "man" who was previously treated as a female, and might well have unambiguously female genetics and unambiguously female genitals. For such a person their gender is 'male'¹, their sex is 'female' and they're a man².)

This might be part of why I'm struggling to understand you, but I think it just be a tangent. I wonder if we might just have different intuitions about attitudes to pornography and whether these are more contingent on our current gender roles or likely to be the result of innate differences between the sexes outing themselves.

^{1 Or 'masculine' if you want, depending on whether you want 'male' to be reserved for sex. Or just  'man' in some uses.
2 They identify themselves to others as a man, and ask others to deal with them as a man.}

[flotemysost]

Just wanted to say thanks for the kind/positive responses to my post, and I'm sorry if I've caused any offence by inadvertently sparking a discussion on the language of gender identity.

It's definitely something I could be better educated on; perhaps wrongly, I normally default to say 'gender' rather than 'sex' - 'sex' to my mind suggests merely the physical/biological, while 'gender' to me is what an individual identifies as mentally and emotionally, and isn't necessarily limited to male or female (I realise this is undermined by my earlier, lazy use of the phrase 'both genders' that was originally picked up on, and rightly so, although I know it wasn't meant in an antagonistic way).

I also understand this might not be particularly helpful to people who were born intersex, or trans people at various stages of their journey (depending on how significant a part of their identity they see physical sexual attributes as being, of course).

On a separate note - RIP poo, if the earlier post is true - you've made me laugh a lot. RIPoo.

[Zetetic]

I don't think you've caused any offence (and I think you used 'gender' entirely sensibly).

[manticore]

Just wanted to say thanks for the kind/positive responses to my post, and I'm sorry if I've caused any offence by inadvertently sparking a discussion on the language of gender identity.

I think it's been a perfectly amiable discussion, and I can't see any offence at all. I found your post helpful and I'm glad you made it.

[Bhazor]

How about tired, lazy, ironic sexist shit that Morris would be ashamed of having fans who indulged in such?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKns9QfQCzs

[Cloud]

Just wanted to say thanks for the kind/positive responses to my post, and I'm sorry if I've caused any offence by inadvertently sparking a discussion on the language of gender identity.

You haven't, and I'm just a plain old cisgender male - that was just me (rather unnecessarily) picking up on it as an example of how easy it potentially offend even when you're seemingly as nice as they come and have absolutely no intention to.  (Of course, I imagine most reasonable people would realise this and simply correct you if they've been misgendered or whatever).  If anything people were more offended by me mentioning it and starting a mini-derail (and appearing to be offended on behalf of others, which always winds people up) so really I wouldn't worry about it :p

Concepts like gender vs. sex and possible non-binary genders etc are still very new in the public mind and have a certain amount of opposition from the 'right' or even from some of their own (e.g. those who prefer clear binary genders they can aim for).  It's complicated and with its fair share of conflicts of interest, so I'd avoid thinking yourself in knots over it.  I'd take the classic "just generally be nice and considerate" approach and hope for everything to call into place.

[New Jack]

The fuck is this thread now

[PlanktonSideburns]

This thread is like the monument they built on the site of the world trade centre