Indiana Jones V

[Dr Rock]

Indian food seems to be a running joke in American pop culture.

Yeah, what's the deal with that?

[St_Eddie]

Only someone with a true appetite for being a cunt would claim its intention was to crudely stereotype generic indian cuisine.

If this comment is aimed at myself, then note that I didn't claim that it was intended as a crude stereotype of Indian cuisine but rather that the end result arguably has those undertones, as an unfortunate side effect, regardless of intent.

[MattD]

Even though you are right, this merely proves how effective Raiders was at justifying suspension of disbelief and how utterly awful a job Crystal Skull did.

Raiders has to be the most expertly crafted and brilliantly directed action adventure film of all time. In terms of sheer popcorn entertainment, nothing has ever beaten it.

I think we risk overstating Spielberg's brilliance at telling a story at the expense of how dynamic he is as a director. Every shot and every scene is painstakingly crafted - not only does he execute every scene perfectly, he paints a picture with every shot.

Which just makes me puzzled how terrible Crystal Skull is in comparison. I always thought with poor source material he could bring anything up to a good standard (and the characters, plotting and script are all dire in this film), but Spielberg seems to be going through the motions here as well. The emphasis on shoddy CGI is shocking and totally at odds with the realism of the first three films special effects.

Is he just complacent with new technology available? Is he pressured into conforming to what is the cinematic norm in directing now (CGI is one of the worst afflictions to modern cinema in my opinion)? Perhaps he just didn't really care? I tend to lean towards the latter - I remember watching interviews of him regarding the film (which I think are on the DVD extras) where he pretty much subtly lambasts it and George Lucas's ideas to the point of giving up.

A major question is why on earth has he hired David Koepp to write the script for this new one? Crystal Skull has a dire script and dialogue to rival the worst of the Star Wars prequels.

[St_Eddie]

Is he just complacent with new technology available? Is he pressured into conforming to what is the cinematic norm in directing now (CGI is one of the worst afflictions to modern cinema in my opinion)? Perhaps he just didn't really care?

I think that it's a mix of all of those elements.  However, I wouldn't say that Spielberg is "pressured" into using CGI, as he's Steven Spielberg; the most bankable movie director throughout the entire history of cinema.  Given that Christopher Nolan is allowed to predominantly utilise practical effects by the studios, then you can bet your bottom dollar that Spielberg would be too.  Like you say, it's likely complacency (and possibly an inability to recognise the inherent fakeness that's so often present in an overuse of CGI) that's to blame.  There's also another factor at play and I'll get to that below...

A major question is why on earth has he hired David Koepp to write the script for this new one? Crystal Skull has a dire script and dialogue to rival the worst of the Star Wars prequels.

Spielberg likes to use the same pool of talent repeatably.  David Koepp also wrote the screenplays for Jurassic Park and War of the Worlds.  Of course, in the former movie's case, Koepp was working from an acclaimed novel by Michael Crichton, which went a long way towards making that particular screenplay decent.

You need only look towards his work as writer on the sequel, The Lost World, to see what happens when he's not using a superior writer's material as a source (Michael Crichton's The Lost World novel was largely ignored when it came time to writing the screenplay for the movie's sequel, despite having been written on spec by Crichton, as a foundation for the planned movie).

Generally speaking, Koepp has proven himself to be poor screenwriter, time and time again.  I've long considered him to be something of a Hollywood hack and shudder every time his name crops up in a film's credits.  It's not necessarily that he's a bad writer, per se but rather that his work is so often substandard, mediocre and run of the mill.  It's adequate at best and rarely, if ever, exceptional.

David Koepp is a major concern when it comes to Indiana Jones V but what is equally concerning, is the likelihood that Spielberg will once again turn towards his usual cinematographer, Janusz Kaminski, for the movie as well.  Kaminski's cinematography for Kingdom of the Crystal Skull was a huge contributor to the issues with the look and feel of the much derided sequel.  Sometimes his style suits the material at hand (as was the case with Spielberg's Minority Report) but it's not a style which suits the look and tone of an Indiana Jones movie (as established by the late, great Douglas Slocombe).

Kaminski's visual style was not only incongruous with the established look of the series but it also had the unfortunate and unintended consequence of making the practical elements of Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, look like CGI (the contraption which that the protagonists remove sand from, raising four pillars into the air, towards the end of the movie) or like it was shot on a sound stage (the opening of the movie, outside the hangar of Area 51).  With Spielberg's insistence on using these past collaborators, in spite of their proven unsuitability for the series, Indiana Jones V is pretty much destined to be another disappointment, even at this early stage of pre-production.

[Shaky]

Spielberg may be guilty of all the things mentioned but he still seems relatively self aware, so there's a chance he'll take the criticism of Crystal Skull on board. But then he could just as easily look at the success of Ready Player One and think, "Yes, that's the way to do it."

Re Koepp: I seem to recall that it was Lucas who vetoed the likes of Frank Darabont and, er, M Night Shyamalan's scripts for Crystal Skull when Spielberg and Ford liked them so Christ knows when Stevie has gone back to him again. Lawrence Kasdan also rewrote bits of the last Indy screenplay and it was still a mess.

[St_Eddie]

Re Koepp: I seem to recall that it was Lucas who vetoed the likes of Frank Darabont and, er, M Night Shyamalan's scripts for Crystal Skull when Spielberg and Ford liked them so Christ knows when Stevie has gone back to him again...

Like I said, Spielberg likes to reuse the same people on multiple projects, regardless of whether the outcome is any good or not.  As a producer, he's just brought David Koepp onboard yet again, to write DC's movie adaptation of Blackhawk, which Spielberg is also eyeing to direct.

Either Spielberg wants to stay within his comfort zone and is reluctant to branch out with fresh collaborators, or Koepp has a scandalous sex tape, involving Spielberg and the E.T. puppet and is threatening to go public with it, unless Spielberg agrees to perpetually hire him.  At this point, the latter seems more likely.  Spielberg should just come clean; something he didn't do in regards to poor E.T.'s bukkaked face.

[Shaky]

Like I said, Spielberg likes to reuse the same people on multiple projects, regardless of whether the outcome is any good or not.  As a producer, he's just brought David Koepp onboard yet again, to write DC's movie adaptation of Blackhawk, which Spielberg is also eyeing to direct.

Either Spielberg wants to stay within his comfort zone and is reluctant to branch out with fresh collaborators, or Koepp has a scandalous sex tape, involving Spielberg and the E.T. puppet and is threatening to go public with it, unless Spielberg agrees to perpetually hire him.  At this point, the latter seems more likely.  Spielberg should just come clean; something he didn't do in regards to poor E.T.'s bukkaked face.

So many images to digest there!

[biggytitbo]

Spielberg is great with CGI though, he used it virtually better than anyone but Cameron in Jurassic park, but also Minority Report, AI, War of the Worlds are all make very tasteful and effective usage. Why it all seems so tacky and fake in Skull is anyone's guess, I think Spielberg was phoning it in tbh, maybe fed up with Lucas and just going along with it.

[momatt]

The CGI in Crystal Skull never struck me as particularly bad, looked fine to me.
Or maybe I was too distracted by everything else in the film being so completely shit.

[Default to the negative]

The CGI in Crystal Skull never struck me as particularly bad, looked fine to me.

Most of it was. I think the jeep chase was the dealbreaker. A case of CGI drawing attention to itself to such a degree, and going so far beyond the limits of physical possibility, that it was hard to watch the scene without also visualising a Making Of documentary where you see them all rehearsing in front of green screens. You look at it and in your mind you automatically do that Making Of thing where the layers are stripped from fully rendered, to halfway, to working mockup, to bare green screen.

[momatt]

Ha, yeah fair point.  Knowing something onscreen is implausible really takes you out of it and look for the flaws.
Fuck, that chase seem just goes on and on forever.  I remember falling asleep at that point in the cinema.
The whole film is just one tedious 2 hour car chase.

Oh, and GUNPOWDER ISN'T FUCKING MAGNETIC.
Neither is lead.

[St_Eddie]

Oh, and GUNPOWDER ISN'T FUCKING MAGNETIC.
Neither is lead.

Yeah, mate but it's a series with fuckin' ghosts in an ark, innit?  It don't matter.  Anythin' and everythin' is fine by fuckin' proxy.

*sarcasm*

[Ferris]

Could be magic gunpowder.

[Steven]

The CGI in Crystal Skull never struck me as particularly bad, looked fine to me.
Or maybe I was too distracted by everything else in the film being so completely shit.

Because then they get to do a shitty CGI shot of it flying over the Russians' car and their astonished faces as they're inevitably blown-up but clever That's Why Mum's Gone To Iceland Indy survives. It's a standard trope in all the Indy films, except they were previously done with practical effects because they were realistic depictions of things, whereas this just looks pants.

[Dr Rock]

It would've worked better if Indy was inside the fridge, then with seconds to spare, gets out and grabs a few cushions off a sofa. And show some other fridges and fake people all blown miles away too.

[Steven]

It would've worked better if Indy was inside the fridge, then with seconds to spare, gets out and grabs a few cushions off a sofa. And show some other fridges and fake people all blown miles away too.

Why not just have the fridge not blown hundreds of feet through the air? Just show the Russians escaping a few miles from the blast in the car but still inevitably getting blown up whereas clever Indy gets inside a lead-lined recepticle which escapes the blast and is just shown knocked over in the rubble before the door opening and Indy spilling out? They just had to storyboard the fridge flying over the Russians' exploding car to hammer the point home which is facilitated by the indulgence of CGI. Even the fridge rolling down the hill afterwards they didn't bother with practical effects to achieve so even that looks hokey as fuck, not to mention the fucking gophers turning up again.

[Dr Rock]

Yup, it would have been better if the fridge saves him, without the flying through the air shit.

[momatt]

Yeah, mate but it's a series with fuckin' ghosts in an ark, innit?  It don't matter.  Anythin' and everythin' is fine by fuckin' proxy.
*sarcasm*

That's what's so funny.  The previous films had a knight that was 800 years old, face-melting ghosts, magic Sankara stones and jumping out a plane on an inflatable raft, yet seemed sort of believable.
I can't really explain why, perhaps down to the general charm and innocence of the films.

Crystal Skull was just full of stupid annoying shit that made no sense, from beginning to end.

[Default to the negative]

That's what's so funny.  The previous films had a knight that was 800 years old, face-melting ghosts, magic Sankara stones and jumping out a plane on an inflatable raft, yet seemed sort of believable.
I can't really explain why, perhaps down to the general charm and innocence of the films.

Maybe it all hinges on the central performance. I wonder if, when they realised Harrison Ford was phoning it in, they decided to compensate with an overload of CGI and antics.

'Well Ford isn't going to move a muscle. But we can use the technology to move the film around him.'

[momatt]

That would make sense if true, but I think Harrison is pretty much the only good thing in it.  Seemed to throw himself into it as much as before.
He was a bit more grumpy and grizzled than normal, but that's his style really.

[Default to the negative]

That would make sense if true, but I think Harrison is pretty much the only good thing in it.  Seemed to throw himself into it as much as before.

Not really. Throughout the film he looks put-upon; a man who is grudgingly going along with it. 'So do you want me to stand here, or over here? Okay. And I suppose I should make some sort of Indiana Jones face now? What about this, will this do?'

He couldn't care less.

[momatt]

Ha ha, you may be right.  He might not have been amazing, but maybe he was the least shit part of it.

I personally thought he was pretty good, but that's just my opinion.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I like the impression of Clint Eastwood Harrison Ford is permanently doing now.

[Dr Rock]

I like the impression of wood Harrison Ford is permanently doing now.

[marquis_de_sad]

I like the impression of Harrison Ford Harrison Ford is permanently doing now.

[Panbaams]

That's what's so funny.  The previous films had a knight that was 800 years old, face-melting ghosts, magic Sankara stones and jumping out a plane on an inflatable raft, yet seemed sort of believable.
I can't really explain why, perhaps down to the general charm and innocence of the films.

Crystal Skull was just full of stupid annoying shit that made no sense, from beginning to end.

I can. You were a kid when you saw the original films, and in your 30s when you saw Crystal Skull.

[marquis_de_sad]

I can. You were a kid when you saw the original films, and in your 30s when you saw Crystal Skull.

There's definitely some of that going on. Even putting aside the supernatural stuff, would an archaeologist really barge into sites of such value and importance armed only with a torch made of priceless historical evidence and a hot Nazi? But, like Bond, the audience isn't supposed to take Indiana Jones too seriously. So what it comes to is how well the films keep you entertained. When they start becoming annoying or shit, the lack of realism suddenly stops being fun and starts getting on your tits.

[St_Eddie]

Crystal Skull was just full of stupid annoying shit that made no sense, from beginning to end.

Maybe you just need to watch it a second time?

[Shaky]

Maybe it all hinges on the central performance. I wonder if, when they realised Harrison Ford was phoning it in, they decided to compensate with an overload of CGI and antics.

'Well Ford isn't going to move a muscle. But we can use the technology to move the film around him.'

Nah, Ford is good. The problem definitely isn't him. He's clearly trying to wring something decent out of the whole affair at every turn and to his credit, he manages to come out of it with dignity intact. Which is admittedly a surprise for a modern-day Harrison vehicle (before he starting doing a victory lap in SW & Blade Runner, anyway).

[St_Eddie]

Not really. Throughout the film he looks put-upon; a man who is grudgingly going along with it. 'So do you want me to stand here, or over here? Okay. And I suppose I should make some sort of Indiana Jones face now? What about this, will this do?'

He couldn't care less.

Spot. On.

You were a kid when you saw the original films, and in your 30s when you saw Crystal Skull.

Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is not of the same standard as the original trilogy.  Age has nothing to do with it.