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whaddya hear, whaddya say? Sopranos Chat 21 years on

Started by paruses, April 10, 2018, 09:59:49 AM

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paruses

I am biting the bullet and opening a new thread for Sopranos chat. No doubt that will be the kiss of death but here goes.

Topics to spin off from the podcasts thread so far:

Furio the actor was a knob but a good character.

Dying on the shitter is a poor way to go out of the show.

Tony's last scene with Junior


From these I am going to say that I agree it is a shame the Frederico Castelluccio might have beena knob. I love his character and the immense but controlled violence he is capable of. I love that first job he does at the sauna too - I really shouldn't enjoy seeing a small Phillippina get punched in the face but the way he goes at the guy and then turns his attention to her really shows he is a professional. I've just got to the bit where Artie invests in the Armagnac and one of the short scenes I always remember is Furio eventually turning up at the guy's door to collect.

I could never get a grip on the guy who dies on the bog. Is his name Paulie or something? He's clearly a filler character but at the same time you really get a sense that he has some depth. No one is really wasted as far as I remember in the show - on the male side that is. Not quite so sure about the female characters - I'm thinking of the mob wives.

Adriana spends a lot more time in her underwear than I remembered.

I'd forgotten there were so many therapists in the show. Apart from Melfi and the old jewish guy they are terrible - but I think that's their point - that they parrot what the particular character wants to hear.

So what do people think the best hit was? Or worst boyfriend Meadow had. And what is ziti - I'd forgotten how much watching the show puts me in Tony mode and I just end up opening the fridge and staring into it.

I have more questions and points but will see if there's any interest in this first.

gatchamandave

By "old Jewish guy" do you mean multi-award winning director and writer Peter Bogdanovich ?

paruses

Quote from: gatchamandave on April 10, 2018, 10:49:12 AM
By "old Jewish guy" do you mean multi-award winning director and writer Peter Bogdanovich ?

No - the one that Carmela sees.

Or maybe he does tell her what she wants to hear.

bgmnts

Ziti is like lasagne isnt it? No idea.

Meadow's worst boyfriend was all of them.

Gigi dying on the bog was funny.

I have no problem with Drea de Matteo in her underwear.

I think this is discussed in universe how Melfi's therapy is useless because Tony is manipulating her. Likewise, Bogdanovich's therapy is useless because Melfi is manipulated by Tony and fixated on the therapy.

The best hit was on Phil Leotardo.

Custard

The Leotardo hit was great, but the comically over the top reactions from the people standing by nearly ruined it.

There's a theory that David Chase put that in as a pisstake of the more blood-thirsty viewership

I'd recommend the Sopranos book that came out after the series ended. Chase is very snippy about some of the reaction to THAT last scene of the series. Comes across as a bit of a wanker, but we'll ignore that. He made the bloody Sopranos

I LOVED the ending. It's perfect.

Custard

The Sopranos: The Complete Book https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0755317343/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_oWiZAbPQHJGF4

Such a great read. Goes very in-depth in regards to, well, everything regarding the series

paruses

Quote from: bgmnts on April 10, 2018, 10:55:20 AM
Ziti is like lasagne isnt it? No idea.

Meadow's worst boyfriend was all of them.

Gigi dying on the bog was funny.

I have no problem with Drea de Matteo in her underwear.

I think this is discussed in universe how Melfi's therapy is useless because Tony is manipulating her. Likewise, Bogdanovich's therapy is useless because Melfi is manipulated by Tony and fixated on the therapy.

The best hit was on Phil Leotardo.

You are almost completely correct but Meadow's worst boyfriend was Noah (though to be fair I've not got to the post-Jackie ones yet so will prepare to be re-offended).

I was going to ask what Ziti is - or rather is it as fantastic as it looks.

Gigi - thank you. Was there a reason he was so backed up?

Am only midway through S4 at the moment so maybe I have some good hits to refresh my memory. Will hold off on my ruling for now. The

I too loved the ending. I had a friend who tried to whine about it so I hit him in the head with a phone several times - he appreciated the reference.

On the subject of therapy I was struck - not so much by Melfi - by how the characters just go to get validation from the therapists. Fair enough Meadow gets sent there but then the therapist just tells her it's OK to drop out of school then offers to write a letter of recommendation to the University of Bareclona, and Janice's therapist, typically, is a sort of hippie type who just tells Janice she is a strong, positive person.

I've just got to the bit where AJ is trying to bang Devin - she's much worse than I remember.

paruses

Quote from: Shameless Custard on April 10, 2018, 11:05:33 AM
The Sopranos: The Complete Book https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0755317343/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_oWiZAbPQHJGF4

Such a great read. Goes very in-depth in regards to, well, everything regarding the series

Cheers - looks like a good investment.

I'm quite enjoying https://sopranosautopsy.com at the moment so thanks for whoever recommended that.

buttgammon

Quote from: bgmnts on April 10, 2018, 10:55:20 AM
Ziti is like lasagne isnt it? No idea.

Quote from: paruses on April 10, 2018, 11:14:41 AM
I was going to ask what Ziti is - or rather is it as fantastic as it looks.

I had baked ziti in a restaurant that was once run by the Mafia - it's basically pasta bake.

I also got some cannolis having seen them in The Sopranos and they were shit.

Custard

I take it we're not bothering with spoiler warnings?

SOPRANOZ REEL FANZ ONLY

Mobius

I didn't know Furio was a prick. What's the story there?

Is there a better more annoying character than Janice?

Some of my fave little bits - Ben Kingsley cameo, Junior watching Curb, Bobby's kid doing a shit, Ralphie's wig coming off, Christopher's intervention.

Greatest television show of all time.

Blinder Data

It's the best TV show ever. Made in a totally different era when producers didn't try to make every episode addictive as hell so you just burn through them.

Unfortunately my last rewatch I did just burn through them, so much so I've forgotten about the guy who died on the toilet. But I shouldn't have. Each episode is a like a painting, or a fine Italian meal - it has many layers and can only be fully enjoyed when digested slowly.

Worst Meadow boyfriend was the one in Series 2 who Tony was racist against and treated her badly. I would never do that to you Meadow.

rasta-spouse

I might get that book, thanks for the tip.

Ziti's a pasta bake. Used to make it with Tes*o Italian-style sausages, but they don't do them anymore.

Best hit was the wheezing old man on the nephew who hit someone with a golf club, or the fat guy who comes to the Pork Store to make fun of Vito's sexuality (more an accidental hit), followed by a memorable scene where his head is thrown in a storm drain.

Chase's direction on the finale is pretty creaky. And yeah, the Phil Leotardo hit has a silliness to it. Almost like he's trying to give a "fuck you" to the viewer. And that's also what the final scene is. In fact, there is a tonal shift in the final season where they remove Tony's humanity entirely. I remember Chase mentioning that he did that to make a point to "all the people who has been cheering Tony's type A behaviour all through the past seasons" but, personally, that deliberate inconsisteny really dents the perfectness of the show.

I was put off Chase for a while by this, but I've listened to a few podasts with him interviewed and he's totally open about the show and its influences. I thought he'd be an audience hating meanie. Is everyone obsessed with the Russian in the woods as the internet makes it seem? I have no interest in it. What I think is really great is how they don't show Christopher telling Tony how Adriana is in with the feds until a season after she's suffered the consequences. Totally wowed and baffled me that they saved that scene.

paruses

Quote from: Shameless Custard on April 10, 2018, 11:27:41 AM
I take it we're not bothering with spoiler warnings?

SOPRANOZ REEL FANZ ONLY

No, I don't think so. I would suggest all posts be in the style of YouTube comments but that would be exhausting after 10 minutes.

Quote from: buttgammon on April 10, 2018, 11:24:19 AM
I also got some cannolis having seen them in The Sopranos and they were shit.

Were the cannolis from that Italian place near the old Bank of Ireland? I had disappointing ones from there and also disappointing ones from the Italian deli on Old Compton Street - I think that proves they are shit - or at least over rated.

Quote from: Blinder Data on April 10, 2018, 11:33:59 AM
Worst Meadow boyfriend was the one in Series 2 who Tony was racist against and treated her badly. I would never do that to you Meadow.

At last, thank you. He is such a massive twat. The guy who played him did an excellent job. I like how he's mentioned as having gone to somewhere in Africa with the UN a bit later - am sure that's a joke about his awful faux earnestness.



buttgammon

One of the few things that bugged me about this programme the last time I watched it was the episode (I think from the second part of the last series) where Tony goes on a gambling splurge. They've seeded it in very small ways but it still seems out of character.

Quote from: paruses on April 10, 2018, 11:36:57 AM
Were the cannolis from that Italian place near the old Bank of Ireland? I had disappointing ones from there and also disappointing ones from the Italian deli on Old Compton Street - I think that proves they are shit - or at least over rated.

Yes - they were from the one on Dame Street. I walk past there most days and have a theory that the nice-looking pastries in the window are all decoys. That said, I think cannolis in general are shit.

Custard

I can't remember where I read it, maybe on The Chase Lounge, that Furio was a bit of a wally and the fame went instantly to his head. He started acting like he was a huge star, and getting on everyone's tits.

The Sopranos cast and crew were all really close, and genuinely considered themselves somewhat a family (not in the mob sense). So Furio being a bit of a sausage must have stood out like a sore thumb on set. Apparently even Chase couldn't stand the bloke, hence the rubbish exit he recieved.

I remember thinking his final scenes were weird at the time, as it felt like there was something big planned for that Carmella storyline. But no, he ran off to Italy in case Tony done duffed him up

What did everyone think of Livia's CGI'ed final scenes? Looks terrible these days. I understand why they wanted to have one final scene with Tony, but it is really poorly done and very distracting. That episode is a belter otherwise, though. "Ahh, what can ya do?". And Carmella's meltdown at the wake. "She made her kids MISERABLE"

Blinder Data

Quote from: buttgammon on April 10, 2018, 11:41:57 AM
One of the few things that bugged me about this programme the last time I watched it was the episode (I think from the second part of the last series) where Tony goes on a gambling splurge. They've seeded it in very small ways but it still seems out of character.

Do you mean when he goes to Vegas after killing Christopher? That's part of him thinking in a peyote-addled state that his luck has completely changed since killing Chrissy and he keeps winning on the roulette, that his nephew was a drain and was always holding him back and he's now free. Plus gambling and the crew go hand in hand - they're always running card games, sports betting, etc.

Livia's CGI scenes are terrible now. They should've just removed them entirely as it completely takes me out of the episode. What a character though. What a show.

Oh goddamnit I need to rewatch it

bgmnts

Quote from: paruses on April 10, 2018, 11:14:41 AM
Gigi - thank you. Was there a reason he was so backed up?

I've just got to the bit where AJ is trying to bang Devin - she's much worse than I remember.

Think it was the stress of being promoted and having to deal with Ralph Cifaretto.

I hate AJ, i know he has to exist aa a bratty, depressed whinging middle class kid but I couldn't stand him.

Custard

It also harks back to that flashback episode with Tony's dad warning him "don't ever be a gambler, Tony", after he cuts blokey's finger off

I guess it's just a sign of further decline for Tony. That whole final season is him being offered a chance at some kind of redemption, after the shooting, and of course he just goes back to the way he was. But even worse


Custard

Anyway, let's get serious. Favourite of Tony's goomahs?

I thought Irina was lovely. Valentina was verrr nice, too

Does Melfi count? Ooh yah

Chris' wife was probably the nicest overall. Adrianna was something, too

And Bobby. Sex on legs


paruses

Quote from: Shameless Custard on April 10, 2018, 12:10:39 PM
Anyway, let's get serious. Favourite of Tony's goomahs?

I thought Irina was lovely. Valentina was verrr nice, too

Does Melfi count? Ooh yah

Chris' wife was probably the nicest overall. Adrianna was something, too

And Bobby. Sex on legs

Was going to pose the same but thought it too premature.

I liked Irina but she was a bit too doll like for me to commit completely. I thought Gloria was hottest - I have a set of very specific scenes in mind for her, me, and that wolf stole she wore.

It seems very unlikely that Bobby would be in as much demand as he is when Karen dies but I suppose that's their world and Mikey Palmice's  widow (I think it's her) would want to atay on the inside of the circle.

On that note I do wonder how well looked after the widows families are- even though Angie is a the widow of a rat she seems to get a decent amount to  buy that new car but that could largely be guilt money from Tony.

Custard

Ooh, forgot about Gloria!

Flings a mean steak, too

paruses

Ha - yes - they make a really big thing about him being hit with the beef whereas that to me seemed really minor in the scheme of things.


buttgammon

Quote from: Blinder Data on April 10, 2018, 11:52:19 AM
Do you mean when he goes to Vegas after killing Christopher? That's part of him thinking in a peyote-addled state that his luck has completely changed since killing Chrissy and he keeps winning on the roulette, that his nephew was a drain and was always holding him back and he's now free. Plus gambling and the crew go hand in hand - they're always running card games, sports betting, etc.

Livia's CGI scenes are terrible now. They should've just removed them entirely as it completely takes me out of the episode. What a character though. What a show.

Oh goddamnit I need to rewatch it

I actually think that episode is sound, it's the one that comes a couple of episodes before it that I have the problem with. I'm pretty sure this is the one.

Fake edit: it says on that Wikipedia page "This episode is unique in that it almost throughout its entirety employs the shaky camera style, with the exception of Dr. Melfi's scenes and scenes in Tony's car. The style may represent the episode's theme of Tony's feverish gambling and losing spree." - I think this was a lot of my issue; it reminds me a bit of the time Eastenders tried to go all cinéma vérité.


paruses

Quote from: Shameless Custard on April 10, 2018, 11:05:33 AM
The Sopranos: The Complete Book https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0755317343/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_oWiZAbPQHJGF4

Such a great read. Goes very in-depth in regards to, well, everything regarding the series

Just bought this - only a little over a fiver with p&p and bought through the affiliate link so rather fittingly some of that gets kicked up to CaB.

What do people think of the episode Commendatori? As ever my faulty memory had that set over a couple of eps at least but it comes and goes quickly - obvs Furio being a legacy of it. I thought at the time it was a bit of a "Sopranos Goes Italian" episode but there's a bit more to it on a rewatch.

It sows the seeds for Christopher and his drug issues but also highlights his lack of dedication to the life I think. I love the Paulie bits too with him being enchanted and disappointed by his experiences there. I love the bargain basement prostitute he has and her absolute boredom and puzzlement with him.

And it cements in my mind too the idea that Tony is actually really good at being a mobster - he's so focused on the fact that it's a business trip despite parts of his character trying to derail him.



bgmnts

Has anyone else noticed the decline in Tony's morality, fiscal security and inhibition also coincides with a slight change in accent in the later seasons? His voice becomes unbearable after around season 3. Maybe I am going mad.

Also Paulie Gaultieri is one of the funniest and most despicable human beings in fiction.

paruses

His voice does seem to get more nasal but then I imagine that is a side effect of chronic fatness. I'm assuming you mean he goes that way becoming more adenoidal than the other way.

Isn't his financial security more paranoia driven? Only being up to mid-S4 he's squirrelling money away to the Isle of Man via the Russian and also hiding it out in the duck feed - although that seems more a plot device to get the cash easily into Carmela's hands. Although he's not quite as secure as you might think - doesn't Hesch/Hesh/Hersh - Herman - estimate his wealth at only about 3 mil + assets? I think I read or heard something about someone estimating organized crime wealth and outside of the really big hitters it was fairly paltry given the risks.

How so his morality?

QDRPHNC

#29
Quote from: Blinder Data on April 10, 2018, 11:52:19 AM
Do you mean when he goes to Vegas after killing Christopher? That's part of him thinking in a peyote-addled state that his luck has completely changed since killing Chrissy and he keeps winning on the roulette, that his nephew was a drain and was always holding him back and he's now free.

My interpretation of that bit (remember he sees the devil face on the slot machine), is that Tony experienced the afterlife and was returned - basically offered a chance at redemption. During his peyote binge in Vegas, he completely rejects that and give in to his bad side - commits himself fully to what he is. In a weird way, maybe that was the lesson he learned from the Buddhists in Costa Mesa. Zen has a lot to say about being fully the person you genuinely are, and we see enough of Tony to know what he is deep down.

Redemption is one of the strongest themes of the show for me - the Soprano family are offered it one at a time, and one at a time they reject it through fear or greed, all sucked into the black hole of crime, materialism and fleeting short-term comfort. AJ may even be the most tragic in this respect, as his parents actively steer him away from where his better instincts (as obnoxiously and immaturely as he might express them) are leading him, and point him straight towards a facile and shallow life, purely for their own benefit.

Yeah, greatest show ever. Twin Peaks and The Sopranos, that's it for me. And I'll add my voice to the praise for the Sopranos Autopsy site - really interesting, accessible insight without wandering into pseudo-academic wank territory.