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whaddya hear, whaddya say? Sopranos Chat 21 years on

Started by paruses, April 10, 2018, 09:59:49 AM

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Custard

Ariel Kiley, who played Tracee, reminisces about her character

https://arielkiley.me/2017/10/23/playing-tracee-on-the-sopranos/

Interesting that Gandolfini asked that his line be changed

"20 years old, this girl"

Hank Venture

She gets a kick out of Joey Pants losing financing towards some project? She doesnt quite get acting. 

Schnapple

Yeah, the cynic in me thought that was a bit of a self-serving read. I can believe she went back to waitressing because the right roles weren't coming up, even despite her great performance, but the idea she gave up acting at 19 years old as she'd made her grand statement about misogyny and patriachy is surely a neat bit of mythology in the current climate.

mr. logic

That episode has huge implications for future plot lines as well. Seems odd that it would have been conceived as Tony being as cold as the others about the incident. In character study terms, the whole point is that he wasn't.

Custard

Yeah, that did strike me as weird. Maybe she's misremembering Gandolfini's reaction

The Tracee and Pie-Oh-My deaths are the two things that make Tony attack Ralphie

"She was just a whore"

"It was just a horse"

Dr Rock

I'm up to series 5 and trying not to binge watch because it will be over too soon. Anyway another great closing scene and music combo - Cold Cuts, the episode is about rage, Dr Melfi focuses on it and Janice is taking anger management lessons, and earlier on the episode has admitted to Tony she is very happy with her progress. Tony meanwhile has smashed a phone over a barman at the Bing's head over a nothingy comment, beating him, hospitalising him, the usual. Closing scene, dinner at Bobby & Janice's with Bobby's kids present, Tony coldly riles up Janice with references to her estranged son and jokes about him being abandoned. Eventually she flips and chases him around the room with a fork. Tony leaves the house smug that he could crush his sister's progress, real cunty. A live version of The Kink's 'I'm Not Like Everybody Else' crashes in, as if the lyrics are like how a rage monster like Tony might justify his own anger and anything else he does. Chilling, fucking excellent stuff.

saltysnacks

Quote from: Dr Rock on May 12, 2018, 02:22:21 PM
Closing scene, dinner at Bobby & Janice's with Bobby's kids present, Tony coldly riles up Janice with references to her estranged son and jokes about him being abandoned. Eventually she flips and chases him around the room with a fork. Tony leaves the house smug that he could crush his sister's progress, real cunty. A live version of The Kink's 'I'm Not Like Everybody Else' crashes in, as if the lyrics are like how a rage monster like Tony might justify his own anger and anything else he does. Chilling, fucking excellent stuff.

Probably one of the best scenes in the show.

One of my favourite Soprano eps, if not favourite, is Pine Barrens (S3E11). A routine money pickup from a Russian Mafiosa type goes tits up when Paulie starts getting wound up and a fantstaic bit of black comedy ensues.
Oh yeah, this interrupted exchange still gets me peeing my pants when I hear it.
QuoteTony: Be careful with this guy. He was in the ministry of the interior. Killed 16 Chechnyans. (hangs up)

Christopher: What'd he say?

Paulie: Guy's a fuckin' interior decorator. Killed 16 Czechoslovakians.

Christopher: Interior decorator? His apartment looked like shit!

Kryton

Quote from: Shameless Custard on May 06, 2018, 04:34:05 PM
Yeah, that did strike me as weird. Maybe she's misremembering Gandolfini's reaction

The Tracee and Pie-Oh-My deaths are the two things that make Tony attack Ralphie

"She was just a whore"

"It was just a horse"

Was Ralphie responsible though for the horse? I cannot remember him burning the stables. Not that it mattered, he had it coming to him. But was it only ever implied?

Dr Rock

You never see him do it, or admit to doing it to anyone.

Dr Rock

And he's pretty traumatised during the time the horse would've been killed because of his son's life-changing injury. It seems like it wouldn't be the right time for him to be up to such a thing.

wiki has this interesting note

QuoteThough not heard, the song "Sympathy For The Devil" by The Rolling Stones is referenced three times through various dialogue directly alluding to Ralph as the devil. Ralph to surgeon: "Please, allow me to introduce myself." Father Intintola to Ralph: "Were you there, when Jesus Christ had his moment of doubt and pain?" Tony to Paulie: "Paulie, his kid's in the hospital. A little fuckin' sympathy, huh?". The references allude to the fact that Ralph in this episode for the first time is portrayed somewhat sympathetically.

gatchamandave

Quote from: Kryton on May 12, 2018, 03:57:13 PM
Was Ralphie responsible though for the horse? I cannot remember him burning the stables. Not that it mattered, he had it coming to him. But was it only ever implied?

There is a guy on Soprano s Autopsy who suggests that the barn was torched by Paulie just to get at Ralphie. Which is, when you think it through, what with the painting, Paulie's growing paranoia in later episodes that Tony might have him whacked coupled with his frantic attempts to ingratiate himself with "T" makes an impressive theory.

Dr Rock

I can see it.

As for the ending of the last episode, I've read a lot of people make the point that if it was to suggest 'this is Tony's life from now on, always paranoid about being hit' - first wouldn't he have had reason to fear a hit many times over the series, and probably in his life before we see him in Episode 1, making his way to the top. Why is he suddenly all paranoid now? Which leads to the other point, I can't remember who' s left alive at that point right now, but a hit from who? The point was made that most of his obvious enemies were all dead, there's no obvious target on his head (of course that casts doubt on the 'he was whacked' theory), any more than many times before (could be wrong, I've not finished the re-watch yet and these are half-remembered posts from the time), and he never seemed very afraid of that before.

gatchamandave

Who's left alive ?

Guess...

Yup

Paulie

Who is specifically named by Phil Leotardo as someone who is NOT to be eliminated

Dr Rock

He never did shoot that bear... mystery solved.

Dr Rock

Okay the two episodes where Tony's in a coma. After the second I looked for what people had written, and saw most interpreting where Tony was as purgatory and where he would go if he didn't come out of the coma in terms of Christian ideas like Heaven and Hell. Let's first assume it can all be explained as what Tony is dreaming, that he's not literally in purgatory, he's having a dream that reflects how he's thinking and his subconscious and that dictating what's in it. He's picked up someone else's briefcase - Kevin Finnerty's - and is forced to do do things in his name, book hotel rooms etc. But before this in the coma dream he wasn't living Tony Soprano's life anyway. So perhaps it was all a fantasy about how he could live if he'd never entered organised crime - the but where he has a different life before taking on Finnerty's identity anyway.

Towards the end he has an appointment at a place that turns out to be an illuminated guest house - the 'Finnerty reunion' in the woods - Steve Buscemi (the cousin he killed) is there, saying he should enter and 'go home' but he needs to let go of his briefcase first. The briefcase seems to represent his business on earth, even though it's not his. Then he hears Meadow's voice in the trees saying 'daddy don't go' and he wakes up.

Now people say you can see a shape that looks like his mother Livia in the doorway but I think it's a stretch, maybe. A question is, whether this is just Tony's imagination, or purgatory, why does this house seem nothing like hell? Isn't that where Tony would go? Maybe there's no hell, maybe Tony never believed in it (I don't think he does). The talk of loss of identity throughout the dream implies that's what's awaiting him, a return to nothingness, or loss of his current identity at least. Would that happen if you went to heaven or hell? I don't think so. Which brings me onto something that can't be ignored, the presence in his dream of buddhist monks (who think he's Finnerty and has fucked them over on fixing their heating - which could mean Hell (this is like 3-2-1) but Buddhists don't believe in that, so why would they be the ones talking about it? Beats me. But this is my angle - it's not just Tony's dream, he is in a kind of purgatory before he moves onto the next stage, if he dies - but it's not heaven or hell, it's maybe reincarnation. Maybe he'll just come back as a tree, or a single drop of rain, but the house, 'Finnerty reunion' where 'all his family are inside' - what is it? Why isn't his cousin inside? Or the universe, where he will be just a bunch of atoms waiting to reform? How is that like his family? In the loosest sense maybe.

Ignoring that Kevin Finnerty sounds like 'Infinity' if you ignore 'Kev' (Why not call him Ned so his initials are 'N. Finnerty'? Too obvious?), maybe this Kevin Finnerty (he says to the barman shortly before leaving to go to the house 'maybe I am Kevin Finnerty') is who he will be when he's reincarnated. Or maybe that identity is just handy so he forgets who he really is (he's learned he has Alzheimers, so is going to lose his memory anyway), and what awaits him is the loss of identity that death brings, when his soul or atoms or something goes back into the cosmos. I don't think Tony has thought about these things enough for the 'dream' to be just what is going through his head, but who knows. There's a lot to chew on.

Lastly, there's a beacon he can keep seeing in the distance. Unlike the helicopter spotlight, which may well be the light the doctors are shining in his eyes, I don't think the beacon in the distance - which the house in the woods is on the way to - is the light of the hospital, or back to lifeness. I think it's god or the godhead, or whatever you want to call it. You can see it in the distance in the 'purgatory' place, but it's always too far away to investigate.

Like his other dreams, as someone already said, The Sopranos, unlike almost anyone apart from David Lynch and a few others, gets dreams right - and in The Sopranos they have meaning, as Dr Melfi would tell you. So is Tony's coma dream all part of his brain sorting through what he is vaguely aware is happening, that he might be about to die and what that means, or is there an element that suggests as he's half alive half dead he's in a place that exists for such souls? Or is it a big riddle that is impossible to fully solve?

Oh one more thing I forgot - Chris kidnaps the film writer/sponsor guy to help with his horror screenplay idea (about someone who comes back to life) and before he's kidnapped he is talking to a group of writers. 'In a previous incarnation I was a Hollywood writer' he says to them. Even Chris would realise, that's gotta mean something.

Dr Rock

And the next episode has some interesting additions to all that. A couple of anti-abortion, stupid-looking Christians come to pray with Tony. Carmella turns up so he kind of takes it seriously but Carmella sees through him. Tony doesn't dig Christianity, or the show doesn't... watching the tv he's engrossed in the old TV show Kung-Fu, we see the cod-buddhisty type teacher fella. 'I used to watch this show all the time' says Tony, so maybe that's why there are buddhist monks in his coma dream.

There's some kind of scientist fella in the hospital too, while watching a boxing match he talks about how there's not two people in the ring, it's an illusion, and everything is one, all atoms and molecules blowing in the wind. I can't help but agree with all this.

Meanwhile Paulie finds out his auntie is his mother, leading to an identity crisis - again with the questioning of identity.

(as a side-note, when this episode aired I was seriously depressed, and as an adopted man - always knew I was adopted, but figured it was all good - I was engulfed by the realisation that it had all been traumatic, I had abandonment issues and questions about everything, and I didn't know who I was anymore either. Paulie's line about how his whole life had been a joke on him rang true for me. Anyway I eventually sorted out my head and got better).

Tony reads a fact about how humanity's time on earth is like a postage stamp on the top of the Empire State Building - 'do you realise how insignificant that makes us?' he asks Chris. The show's really laying this stuff on now.

One of the Jesus-freaks comes back and talks of hell and invites Tony to join them at their church and redeem himself and then reveals himself as a Creationist when he says how dinosaurs and men existed on earth at the same time. 'Like The Flintsones?' Tony is skeptical and sides with scientists on the issue, though a little talk with the (soon-to-die) scientist fella in the hospital - when Tony does confess some fear of hell - who puts him back to seeing the existential side of reality. Which is what these three episodes are, existentialist themes in a tv show about gangsters.

Tony's still a cunt though, back to running his violent crime business and telling Paulie to get over his 'petty' issues. We see Paulie crying, he's usually a clownish figure in the show, but you know what they say about tears and clowns. Hurm.

Tony leaves the hospital, says to Janice that every day from now on is a gift. Back home he's experiencing some kind of bliss watching the wind blow through the trees. The shot comes down and it's a cut to the guy they are fucking out of his business, Paulie smashes his legs with an iron bar. Tony's serenity clashing with the violence he's responsible for. Closing music Pink Floyd's One of These Days off Meddle, which is super, can't tell you if it means anything. 

Custard

I love the scene, possibly in the next episode, when Tony is trying to relax in his garden, yet the bin lid keeps rattling. A reminder that he'll never be able to relax

"Every day is a gift. But does it have to be a pair of socks?"

Custard

Up to episode six of my rewatch. The Blu-rays are nice, aren't they?

Episode 5, College, is so bloody good. Tony taking Meadow to visit college, and ends up going after snitch bloke. I could probably have done without the Carmela stuff with the greedy priest, mind

Mikey was such a cunt. That grin! And Tony has just tricked Junior into thinking he's the boss. All good stuff

Livia is written and played so wonderfully. Apparently David Chase based her on his own mother. The poor, poor bastard

Just little things she does, like the tiny flicker of excitement when Tony brings her macaroons. She quickly catches herself, and pushes them away. "Ahhhh, they're too sweet". Brilliant stuff

paruses

Having finished my rewatch - much faster than I expected - I might go and dip in and out of episodes.

Intintola sticks around for the whole series, doesn't he? I had thought they binned him off after Carmela calls him a user.

Livia is in my top five characters - all 5 probably being joint first. I love the scenes with Junior too. I mentioned already that the NFZ podcast guys do excellent impressions of her and that I am incredibly envious of them. The scene in the car with Junior where they are just complaining about things is so funny; gays in the military "...ah stop it Juuuunia. You're upsetting me" (it's nothing just written down, is it?)

NFZ made a nice point about College - the bit where Meadow is asking Tony if he's in the Mafia is a bit stiff and they suggested that it was put in really as a "Trailer" shot. It fits perfectly with that (Meadow asks, cut to something else, cut back to them driving and Tony thinking....).

neveragain

Is there any love out there for the ending of 'Where's Jonny?' - the teary conversation between Tony and Junior. The acting, the ambient music coming in on the credits. "Why can't you say something nice? ...Don't ya love me?" Tony trying to shrug it off. Junior confused to the point of distress. Probably my favourite capper.

mr. logic

My favourite ever ending is when Tony is sat on hay tending to his sick horse, and a goat wanders in. He gives a glint of humoured self-recognition- the big mobster boss in such a twee picture book moment- as some beautiful song comes on and the credits roll. It was such a fucking beast of a television show. Imagine conceiving that scene.

colacentral

Word of advice about the blu rays - you may or may not notice that on a few of the final episodes there's a serious sound fuck up, where for a few scenes there's a sort of metallic echoey sound over everything (The Blue Comet is one, but it first appears a few episodes before that - whichever one opens with Carmela messing about with a blender or a coffee machine, then watching Tony leave through the window). If you obsessively watch every second of every show like me, you'll notice straight away as the theme tune sounds completely wrong.

You can actually get replacement discs with the error fixed, for free, if you email Warner directly to complain about it.

Warner are shit with errors like this - they do a replacement disc for the Adam West Batman blu-rays too as there's one episode where they lopped the final scene of Bruce and Dick pissing about playing chess or whatever.

It's a common error as I initially bought a replacement box, several months after the release date, but the error was present on that one too (as the error appears 70+ episodes in, so by the time I got there I figured the fucked up batch had been recalled and replaced with a fixed printing, but no - they depend on the customer to go searching through the Warner site for their customer service email in the off chance they replace the disc, which I'd wager is a concept the average customer has never heard of).

Dr Rock

Season six, and time is limited, so although I clearly was happy with two episodes that were coma dreams, I didn't need to spend one at a wedding and another all about Artie. I hate weddings and I don't care about Artie. The stuff with Ben Kingsley makes the Artie one more appealing.

colacentral

If you mean "Mr & Mrs John Sacrimoni Request...", you're mental. Top tier episode.

While I'm here, I disagree with whoever said earlier in the thread that the earliest seasons are the best: I think, broadly speaking, it gets better and better as it goes on, with just a minor dip in season 4 and 6 (between Johnny Cakes and Keisha). The first season is the weakest - the side characters aren't as well developed, it's the only season that looks dated, and it has an over-abundance of Father Phil. Not to say that it's bad, just that it's the weakest.

Season 4 is the most underrated, I reckon - it's a slow burn for sure, but it has one of the best season payoffs in the final stretch, and some of the greatest all-time episodes in "The Weight," "Whoever Did This...", and "Whitecaps."

Dr Rock

Quote from: colacentral on May 19, 2018, 06:32:53 PM
If you mean "Mr & Mrs John Sacrimoni Request...", you're mental. Top tier episode.

Really? Whats good about it apart from the bit were the police ruin the wedding by carting him away in tears?

Just watched the one where Tony killed Christopher. Do people think he did the right thing, from a self-preservation point of view? Christopher was becoming a wild card, who knew if his addictions would lead him to do something like go into the witness protection and rat everyone out (unlikely but possible) or betray Tony in another way, maybe shoot him? The trust had broken down. Christopher was a loose canon in the sense his driving was fucked up and that's symbolic innit. Apart from the relief Tony said he felt after Christopher was gone, I think probably he took the correct action in order to be safe. Then again, he was a young soldier and most of his crew are a right bunch of old codgers without him.

Dr Rock

'Cleaver' probably did Christopher in as much as anything. Don't make a movie where the bad guy is obviously your boss and the implication is you'd like to see him dead.

paruses

Quote from: Dr Rock on May 29, 2018, 01:01:21 PM
Just watched the one where Tony killed Christopher. Do people think he did the right thing, from a self-preservation point of view? Christopher was becoming a wild card, who knew if his addictions would lead him to do something like go into the witness protection and rat everyone out (unlikely but possible) or betray Tony in another way, maybe shoot him? The trust had broken down. Christopher was a loose canon in the sense his driving was fucked up and that's symbolic innit. Apart from the relief Tony said he felt after Christopher was gone, I think probably he took the correct action in order to be safe. Then again, he was a young soldier and most of his crew are a right bunch of old codgers without him.

He probably did the right thing from a professional point of view rather than a moral one. I don't think Tony trusts anyone but Christopher was unpredictable and susceptible to substance abuse and a desire to be acknowledged for things. I always wonder why Tony makes such a big thing about the child's car seat being in the back - does he do that to rationalize his decision to off his nephew/cousin?

As for the old codgers - I always thought it was implied that there is an endless source of youngsters available and that we only see the senior management - look how Matthew Bevelaqua and Sean Name Unknown are introduced and then offed without a thought. As much as we might think that Chrissy matters he really doesn't.

Custard

Paulie's Godfather car horn in S01E11!

Have seen this episode probably ten times, yet that's the first time I've ever noticed it!

paruses

This popped up on my phone the other day. Not much Sopranos information but a quote from Silvio (I will not allow anyone to break character). It's only an aside I have quoted below:

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/showbiz/goss/713205/Johnny-Depp-could-star-in-Sopranos-prequel

QuotePlans are afoot to make a new movie about Tony Soprano's mafia family, focusing on the previous generation.

It will be called The Many Saints Of Newark and Van Zandt hopes Depp will play his immaculately coiffured character, Silvio Dante.

Steven told me: "The prequel is happening, which is wonderful. Who should play Silvio? I guess he'd be a 20-25-year-old guy – is Johnny Depp too old?"


The only other stuff I can find is from March of this year. Here's The Guardian writing about it:

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/mar/08/david-chase-to-make-sopranos-prequel-movie-the-many-saints-of-newark

How bad do we think it will be? Or is anyone excited about it? They talk about the concept a few times over the course of the NFZ podcast and are very down on the idea. The mainstay of their argument being that you can only see so many people being hit with a baseball bat to a doo-wop soundtrack and that we know where Junior, Johnny S, and all the others end up.

Will it ruin the legacy or will it make the world and even better place to be in than it already is?