People kept chemically stable by citalopram and the like

[Soup]

'kin ell lads, chill out. You're in love and its a sunny day, to paraphrase McCartney.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

This is it, I'm exploring my feelings about it by sharing because of a lack of frame of reference. The 5 or so similar anecdotes so far help provide that. Thanks to all who have arrived with that spirit.

To help set the tone a little, these are minor neuroses and to some extent academic ones of mine. I am interested in the notion that someone may wish to feel highs and lows and clearly from the above, some people do.

At no point did I suggest that any decision was mine to take, that I was going to be pressurising her im either direction. It's simply interesting to compare a life of more raw feelings, less control versus the comfort of being insulated from that. If a drug is made which can be taken at intervals which replicate a more average human experience would people prefer that to the insulation?

[Cuellar]

In my experience you don't feel insulated from anything. Quite the reverse: able to actually engage with things properly, open up, realise what is important and what isn't. I was insulated when I was depressed.

It's also certainly not the case that I don't experience highs or lows.

If a drug is made which can be taken at intervals which replicate a more average human experience

Well, I've found that this does exist. I won't claim that my change in mood is 100% down to SSRIs, but my taking them coincided with being able to do things again.

You could argue that being depressed and unable to muster any enthusiasm for the world at large is a perfectly healthy reaction to our late capitalist society and that it is therefore 'better' to live like that than to take antidepressants just so you can perform meaningless labour that shores up the husk of capital. And you might well be right. But is that worse than topping yourself? Don't know.

[Zetetic]

I don't count my lofepramine as much different to the caffeine, alcohol and codeine that I interfere with myself with.

Or where I live, my job and everything else that I've adjusted around me to change who I am and how I feel.

I'm about to spend a weekend in the choking vapid hell of our vampire capital, surrounded by the walking dead. I've forgotten my pills, again, and the greatest impact that this will have on my personality will probably come from the interaction of air pollution and loss of an antihistamine.

[Utter Shit]

If she's happier it seems pretty cruel to ask her to be miserable to make you feel better.

Yeah, this...I don't know if the opening post in this thread was tongue-in-cheek or what, but if it's genuine then that is a horrible way to think.

[ieXush2i]

It's odd how we still don't quite comprehend mental health and it's treatment in our culture. I think if we replace "citalopram" with "insulin" in the initial query we'd understand it's very much a quality of life thing.

However, a possible healthy solution would be to invest and commit to talk therapies, both as individuals and as a couple. This could establish the root of any issues, develop coping strategies etc but this can take a lot of time, money, patience and unpleasant honesty.

[Zetetic]

He did say that he also didn't think that the mentally ill her wasn't the real her.

Which is interesting. I hate the idea of trying to conceive of depression as a ... disease distinct from who I am, but clearly it makes sense to many people, in particular those who have 'recovered' who they once were.

One thing that has stuck with me about something that I once read about Early Intervention in Psychosis services (who deal with teenagers through into young adults, mostly) is that their users felt like they were becoming new people, learning to be someone else.

[Sebastian Cobb]

It's odd how we still don't quite comprehend mental health and it's treatment in our culture. I think if we replace "citalopram" with "insulin" in the initial query we'd understand it's very much a quality of life thing.

Seeing mental health as merely a chemical imbalance seems like a rather dated misunderstanding.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Yeah, this...I don't know if the opening post in this thread was tongue-in-cheek or what, but if it's genuine then that is a horrible way to think.

That wasn't what was happening so not to worry.

[bgmnts]

I took the OP to mean he wishes that there was a drug out there for her friend who could keep her on an even keel but also allow to her experience the natural highs and lows of life without wallowing in despair.

Seems kosher.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

He did say that he also didn't think that the mentally ill her wasn't the real her.

Mmm. She was unlucky to be born without her body producing essential chemicals that stabilise her in a way I take for granted, so she had anxiety and depression as a consequence. Citalopram provides those but a side product for her seems to be that there are less extreme highs and lows too, and this manifests itself in occasionally muted reactions to bad events/things people say. This also seems quite mild in comparison to the testimonies above.

I am not advocating any changes, I am pondering on the implications on your existence as a human from that.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I took the OP to mean he wishes that there was a drug out there for her friend who could keep her on an even keel but also allow to her experience the natural highs and lows of life without wallowing in despair.

Seems kosher.

You got it right.

Well, I don't so much wish it replaced it, I wish it was an option available.

[ieXush2i]

Seeing mental health as merely a chemical imbalance seems like a rather dated misunderstanding.

Indeed.

I know it's unhealthy to place your partner on a pedestal or have an unattainable idealised expectation of couplehood but pondering on an unverifiable grass-is-greener "truer" version of them is an interesting one.

[Zetetic]

She was unlucky to be born without her body producing essential chemicals that stabilise her in a way I take for granted, so she had anxiety and depression as a consequence. Citalopram provides those

This probably isn't accurate.

[DoesNotFollow]

I've learnt from in my ongoing treatment and recovery from depression and anxiety (I took SSRIs for a number of years) is it's a lot about change and doing things that are helpful - the Citalopram from what I understand helps stabilise mood so you can get on with the things you need/want to do on a daily basis that then can, hopefully, facilitate changes and healing on an emotional level. In a way like a plaster cast stabilises the leg - allows you to get about - while the bone itself is repaired. Not to suggest it's like 'fixing a broken mind', but I think the analogy for the treatment is pretty good - thoughts anyone?

My mental and physical wellbeing is probably at the best it's been right now since my mid-teens. You could say I feel more authentic to my 'real' self now - but I also recognise that over that time of recovery my own goalpost of what my 'real' self is has also moved.
Thoughts and feelings about the futility of existence etc. aren't gone - they make just as much sense as they did at my deepest point of depression - but now they simply aren't the most important thing anymore and certainly don't affect me in such un-helpful ways. Change of perspective.

There's discussion to be had about mood-altering drugs certainly, and a patient should try and be aware and scrutinise the effectiveness of their treatment. But if they feel it is helpful in and it's doctor approved then that's kind of the definition of treatment. That's probably as real as it gets.

[canadagoose]

I often wonder about the effects of antidepressants on personalities, having taken them for ten of my twenty-nine years myself. If I didn't have them, I'd be in a crap place - doubly crap, because mine also dull chronic pain of an unknown source (doctors can't seem to agree on what it might be, so God knows). If being without them is natural and real, then natural and real is shit.

The comparison to insulin is interesting; without insulin, my natural state would look a bit like this. Without antidepressants, I might be the same, but... it's all such a big unknown. Who knows what path anyone would go down without them? After long enough, it only really exists in imagination. I sometimes feel like maybe I'm missing something I'm destined for by taking them, but then I remember life is probably just a random mess of coincidences, and I stop worrying as much.

Edit: I meant to say, I can definitely feel despair, sadness, emptiness and happiness - but I'm not on citalopram (I'm on an SNRI), so maybe that's why.

[Utter Shit]

That wasn't what was happening so not to worry.

I hope that beneath the doubling-down there's part of you wondering if the reaction you've had might demand a rethink of your (hypothetical) attitude. If your missus has a found a way of making life more bearable then good luck to her. The idea that anyone would try to nitpick at it, let alone a loved one...fucking hell.

EDIT: Regarding your later posts...your understanding of mental health is very narrow. It would be worthwhile for both you and your partner if you read up a bit about the causes and effects of depression, anxiety and related issues.

Also I would massively recommend your girlfriend look into the NHS' Time to Talk - long waiting lists but the most rounded, long- term approach to mental health I've experienced.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I wasn't nitpicking, again this is a discussion based on something that didn't happen. There really is no need for this angry judgemental commentary as can be seen by the great many people who have replied in good faith. We know you are first on the scene whenever there is any shit stirring to be done but perhaps show some class for a change?

Perhaps you should engage with the several other people who have reported similar experiences as well.

[Zetetic]

I think the analogy for the treatment is pretty good - thoughts anyone?

I think it makes a lot of sense. It does, perhaps, open some a can-of-worms about staying on medication for life once we junk the 'innate chemical imbalance' (or insensitivity) stuff for the vast majority of people depression - if we're using antidepressants mostly to jump-start bits of you so that you can work out how not to be dominated by depression, why are we staying them forever?

But then citalopram, in particular, is mostly exceedingly cheap and safe even with the various bits of buggering about that drug companies have indulged in. (Paying generic manufacturers to restrict supply, escitalopram, possible cartel-like disruption of supply.)

[Utter Shit]

I think it makes a lot of sense. It does, perhaps, open some a can-of-worms about staying on medication for life once we junk the 'innate chemical imbalance' (or insensitivity) stuff for the vast majority of people depression - if we're using antidepressants mostly to jump-start bits of you so that you can work out how not to be dominated by depression, why are we staying them forever?

Psychological addiction/reliance? I've been on a dose so low that my doctor has told me outright that it probably won't be doing anything, but it's such a crutch that when I'm not taking it I am constantly aware that I'm not on it, and so obsessively monitor my state of mind...which isn't healthy. I think it's known as a super-scanner in mental health circles, which makes it sound exciting and fun rather than exhausting and debilitating.

[Small Man Big Horse]

Cheats aren't they really?

But no there are those with an biological lack of something or other drugs help enormously. I understand why that's important. Bring on the chemical buffers in those cases, definitely.

However, I also observe that such a drug suppresses what I'd call 'normal ups and downs', the kind I experience as a routine being lucky enough to have standard biological and mental reactions to most situations. Instead the drug has a flattening effect so things that might upset say, me, they get over really quickly.

I'm sorry to hear it has such an effect on her, whenever I've taken citalopram (as I am right now) I've still had 'normal ups and downs', but also the ability to cope with them and not spiral as I might have in the past. I've heard of people worrying that anti-depressants might turn them in to an emotionless zombie, or, to be less dramatic, not quite themselves, but if anything I've always felt more like myself once I've started them and they've helped with the depression. That said I don't want to be on them forever, but I've always been glad they've been there when I need them.

Ok ok disclosure so I'm talking about my partner.

I just find it an odd one to come to terms with. The citalopram version is a great version for a number of reasons. She is happy and confident and liberated from the torment that went before it. But, as a partner of someone fitting this description, I have never known the "real" her because the mentally ill version obviously wasn't, and yet the sparkly aided medical version isn't either. This makes me feel odd.

From a relationship perspective this has made everything ridiculously easy to the point where we have fallen out fewer than 5 times in 2 years, and even then not near the falling outs in previous relationships, and one time the situation where any partnership would have become strained. It almost feels like I'm cheating as the drug is suppressing the sort of reactions other women might have. Is there an extent to which this is just a sort of sham relationship, and one which might not even exist if we both had normal brain chemistry? I find it quite dislocating despite enjoying the benefits enormously.

Should I just forget about it and get on with it?

I might ask her if there was a drug that gave her more natural highs and lows if she'd transfer to that.

It's just who she is right now, and in no way a sham relationship. You can never tell in any relationship when someone may start or stop using anti-depressants, and it doesn't invalidate the relationship if they do at some point. So yeah, forget about it (and maybe even appreciate the stress free existence!) and get on with it. Now.

[DoesNotFollow]

I think it makes a lot of sense. It does, perhaps, open some a can-of-worms about staying on medication for life once we junk the 'innate chemical imbalance' (or insensitivity) stuff for the vast majority of people depression - if we're using antidepressants mostly to jump-start bits of you so that you can work out how not to be dominated by depression, why are we staying them forever?

Yeah it's not an easy thing... Luckily for me I had enough self-awareness to say 'right, I don't think I need these anymore (Citalopram) but I think I might need this (further counselling)'. I think that talking therapies can be a very important step to getting to the root of things and facilitating the deeper long-term changes.

Just a bit of food for thought about the 'real'ness described also:
Use of nicotine, alcohol, caffeine, prescription and over-the-counter drugs and illegal substances all affect personality, mood and perception on the daily. They all help keep people ticking along in their own way.

How many highs or lows of life would be experienced very differently if at the time you hadn't had your morning coffee, for example?
When someone gives up smoking and becomes a ratty, irritable arsehole - is that the 'real' them? What about months down the line when they've kicked the habit, chilled out because of no longer feeling the withdrawal - is that FINALLY the 'real' deal? But what if they're overeating now and mood has changed in a different way because of that?

I think the point you interact with someone, whatever chemicals may or may not be in their system, is about as real as you're going to get in that moment. Not pure, but real.

[Zetetic]

Psychological addiction/reliance? I've been on a dose so low that my doctor has told me outright that it probably won't be doing anything...

And indeed physiological habituation - stay on an SSRI long enough, and your biochemistry going to compensate to an extent by becoming better at re-uptaking serotonin and your neurology will compensate to an extent by becoming less response to serotonin.

[Zetetic]

I think the point you interact with someone, whatever chemicals may or may not be in their system, is about as real as you're going to get in that moment. Not pure, but real.

And, to labour the point, the focus on ingested chemicals is perhaps even a distraction.

There are plenty of much more effective ways to massively upset me without fiddling with my medication, but instead by buggering up my environment. (Not least by making it either a) more natural or b) more representative of human experience, taken broadly.)

I don't think that my ready access to food, shelter and clean water violates the purity of my human consciousness, but these things certainly radically alter it.

(Edit: Arguably in a more complicated way than my flippancy suggests, and perhaps - although I hate to suggest it - not for the more content.)

[ieXush2i]

Yet at least two people have reported approximately similar experience. Almost like we are better off sharing experiences than treating this as a pissing contest over mental health knowledge.

"at least two people" = 1

and I don't even know if icehaven or her partner are having approximately similar experiences, from my reading. The fella is on citalopram to cope with PTSD for a start.

[massive bereavement]

We don't catch depression, it's an expression of something within ourselves. I don't think it's a good thing to deny it, I think we need to embrace it, be it, act it out, go fucking mental for a bit if need be. It's got to come out somehow, if we deny it an emotional outlet then it's going manifest itself physically and you end up going grey at 30 or something.

[ieXush2i]

I agree, everyone should spend a month almost entirely in bed contemplating death's sweet release. Builds character.

[Twit 2]

Guys, how do we know Shoulders hasn't made up having a girlfriend?

[ieXush2i]

In my experience you don't feel insulated from anything. Quite the reverse: able to actually engage with things properly, open up, realise what is important and what isn't. I was insulated when I was depressed.

It's also certainly not the case that I don't experience highs or lows.

Well, I've found that this does exist. I won't claim that my change in mood is 100% down to SSRIs, but my taking them coincided with being able to do things again.

You could argue that being depressed and unable to muster any enthusiasm for the world at large is a perfectly healthy reaction to our late capitalist society and that it is therefore 'better' to live like that than to take antidepressants just so you can perform meaningless labour that shores up the husk of capital. And you might well be right. But is that worse than topping yourself? Don't know.

I think you've implied a greater point with your reference to late capitalism: improve environmental and living standards for all and we'll see a drop in depression rates along with other mental health issues.

[madhair60]

This thread wins the CaBFTA for Most Mean-Spirited Misrepresentation of OP by Multiple Posters

(This post wins the CaBFTA for Least Helpful Snipe From Sidelines by a Cunt)