People kept chemically stable by citalopram and the like

[Small Man Big Horse]

Guys, how do we know Shoulders hasn't made up having a girlfriend?

I'm a facebook friend and he's been posting pictures of them fucking for a while now.

Of course she could be a paid escort. But I know Shoulders wages and holiday expenditure and doubt it to be honest.

[MoonDust]

I'm worried I might be dependent on sertraline. I failed to get a renewed prescription before I moved to Germany for a multitude of reasons and I ran out with what I had a week ago. Anticipating this I've been cutting down on my prescribed amount to try and ween off it but I'm not sure it's worked. I've barely been able to concentrate all week and just slightly moving my head gives me what I can only describe as lightning flashes of dizziness. I've not yet figured out how health insurance and GP appointments work over here and given I'm only two and a half weeks into my job I'm too scared to mention this to my boss in case they notice they've employed someone who can't concentrate on simple tasks...

[Zetetic]

Sort out access to a GP - I appreciate that's an obvious piece of advice, but do it now. If you don't get advice from anyone on here, ask your boss and invent a health condition if you don't want to mention antidepressants.

(My extremely limited interactions with healthcare in Germany suggest, entirely anecdotally, that they're less of a fan of keeping people on antidepressants forever, incidentally.)

'Dependent' is a strong word. Discontinuing without any advice and support in the midst of other changes is not a good idea.

[imitationleather]

I'm worried I might be dependent on sertraline. I failed to get a renewed prescription before I moved to Germany for a multitude of reasons and I ran out with what I had a week ago. Anticipating this I've been cutting down on my prescribed amount to try and ween off it but I'm not sure it's worked. I've barely been able to concentrate all week and just slightly moving my head gives me what I can only describe as lightning flashes of dizziness. I've not yet figured out how health insurance and GP appointments work over here and given I'm only two and a half weeks into my job I'm too scared to mention this to my boss in case they notice they've employed someone who can't concentrate on simple tasks...

I stopped taking it and two fucking months later I was still intermittently getting that dizziness. Absolutely horrendous. The doctor could have at least mentioned that this would happen when I started. Like you I ran out and it was after a week or so that it hit me but I thought "You know what? I don't really want to be on antidepressants indefinitely. I'll ride this out." But it just went on and on and on. After weeks of this I thought about going back on it but I was like "Eh, would rather not have the awful sickness of the first month on it and then when I give it up one day I'll have months of feeling dizzy again. Fuck this, I'm out now I had better stay out. Don't even know for sure it actually made me feel better anyway." It's pretty shite all round, but it did stop eventually. Really not ideal if you have stuff to do and need to be like a normal person.

[ieXush2i]

Oh Moondust, I know where you're coming from especially with those dizzy flashes. I know this is easier said than done but having been in a job where I was unable to focus on simple tasks and was mocked and bullied by my manager for doing so, thus increasing my anxiety and creating a feedback loop, you'll feel so relieved if you ask about it at work. I'm certain they want a happy functional employee, and the anxiety coupled with withdrawal is making a relatively simple and beneficial wellbeing process  all the more daunting.

Zetetic speaks the truth as he often does about coming off it without consultation, but the upside seems to be that in Germany they will work with you so they aren't the... last solution.

[MoonDust]

Cheers guys. My health insurance is for the state health service, but when I Google English speaking doctors (my German isn't that good yet) there's no indications whether they're public or private. So don't want to just pick one and then be surprised with a bill.

Also to imitationleather, when you said the dizziness stopped eventually, how long was eventually?

[imitationleather]

Also to imitationleather, when you said the dizziness stopped eventually, how long was eventually?

I would say it was really bad and debilitating for three weeks. After that I would get it occasionally. Say if there was a loud noise or something surprised me I'd get a brief flash of my head spinning. It's pretty hard to describe to someone who hasn't had it.

I was only taking the medication for about six months, so I was surprised I got such severe withdrawals. Although when I started taking it I was very ill too so I think it's a drug that is generally quite brutal. I've read about people taking it for decades and I dunno what it is like for them. I guess they can only stop with the supervision of a doctor, which is what we should have done but I was quite keen to knock it on the head whereas my doctor would have been more likely to suggest increasing my dose (this is what he always suggested when I saw him).   

[AllisonSays]

When my ex-girlfriend was on Citalopram we argued all the fucking time. You're not trying hard enough!

[MoonDust]

I would say it was really bad and debilitating for three weeks. After that I would get it occasionally. Say if there was a loud noise or something surprised me I'd get a brief flash of my head spinning. It's pretty hard to describe to someone who hasn't had it.

I was only taking the medication for about six months, so I was surprised I got such severe withdrawals. Although when I started taking it I was very ill too so I think it's a drug that is generally quite brutal. I've read about people taking it for decades and I dunno what it is like for them. I guess they can only stop with the supervision of a doctor, which is what we should have done but I was quite keen to knock it on the head whereas my doctor would have been more likely to suggest increasing my dose (this is what he always suggested when I saw him).   

I see. I've been on it since December 2015. The last time I saw my doc in the UK we agreed it best to keep on it until I at least finished my PhD seeing as that will be stressful. Now that's done I felt safe trying to ween off it. But apparently not. It was 50mg daily. About 2 months ago I started splitting the pills in half so it was 25mg daily, and when that was running low I did one day on 25mg, one day off. Clearly that didn't work haha

[imitationleather]

You have at least done it more sensibly than I did and so it shouldn't be as bad. I was on 100mg a day (my doctor was advising 150!) and just stopped. Doing that is a 0/5, do not recommend :thumbsdown: :'(.

[Isnt Anything]

'kin ell lads, chill out. You're in love and its a sunny day, to paraphrase McCartney.

the sunny day just made it worse though. all that jiggling around in see-through vest and tight knickers yet i couldn't do anything about it and probably wont be able to for at least three weeks if not longer.

but yeah i need to apologise for that post. bad afternoon, am a bit better now. I do try to be grateful for what i have. its just hard sometimes. matron.

[tookish]

Hm, I can understand why you're worrying, but I really don't think antidepressants are making her happy, so much as stabilising her brain chemistry so that she's able to experience a wider range of emotions without depression smothering them. If she's happy, that's good! Enjoy it together, and try not to pick at it for a potential issue.

If it helps, I'm on a mighty, mighty dose of antidepressants, as well as numerous other mental health medications, and I'm still a miserable fuck. Just not so much of a depressed fuck.

[Zetetic]

Even if you had good reason to believe that they're "stabilising brain chemistry" (and I don't think you do), relying on that as a justification for according someone on antidepressants dignity as 'real' seems fairly dangerous.

Not least because your understanding of the action of antidepressants is open to change - what if three decades later you're convinced that the pills' effects can't be described in those terms? Do you now write off those three decades of experience?

Any approach to this which minimises what someone's like, how they feel and so on in favour of deferring to whether they meet some criteria for supposed biochemical or biomechanical normalcy has a whole host of problems.

(In fairness, you then follow up with "if she's happy than that's good".)

[Zetetic]

One thing that's been skirted around a bit is whether the blunted affect that S?S! reports is really distinct from not being depressed - whether his hypothetical alternative drug is even possible, or at least possible without some other (unnatural, abnormal?) forcing action on behalf of some external agent (whether it's a drug or talking therapy or self-reflection).

I'm generally a lot calmer and less easily upset or wound up than I was a decade ago. If that is 'due to' lofepramine, it's a more complicated story than me being drugged up. Not being miserable and feeling dead inside most of the time, and cutting some of the time to relieve that, has enabled emotional development.

[Big Mclargehuge]

Cheats aren't they really?

But no there are those with an biological lack of something or other drugs help enormously. I understand why that's important. Bring on the chemical buffers in those cases, definitely.

However, I also observe that such a drug suppresses what I'd call 'normal ups and downs', the kind I experience as a routine being lucky enough to have standard biological and mental reactions to most situations. Instead the drug has a flattening effect so things that might upset say, me, they get over really quickly.

Ok ok disclosure so I'm talking about my partner.

I just find it an odd one to come to terms with. The citalopram version is a great version for a number of reasons. She is happy and confident and liberated from the torment that went before it. But, as a partner of someone fitting this description, I have never known the "real" her because the mentally ill version obviously wasn't, and yet the sparkly aided medical version isn't either. This makes me feel odd.

From a relationship perspective this has made everything ridiculously easy to the point where we have fallen out fewer than 5 times in 2 years, and even then not near the falling outs in previous relationships, and one time the situation where any partnership would have become strained. It almost feels like I'm cheating as the drug is suppressing the sort of reactions other women might have. Is there an extent to which this is just a sort of sham relationship, and one which might not even exist if we both had normal brain chemistry? I find it quite dislocating despite enjoying the benefits enormously.

Should I just forget about it and get on with it?

I might ask her if there was a drug that gave her more natural highs and lows if she'd transfer to that.

Im in a similar situation, my partner has a chemical imbalance thats exacerbated by depression and anxiety. she's medicated for it and it's like night and day with her. In fact we can both tell if shes forgotten to take her medication (Usually within 48 hours) because she'll become very verbally short with anyone and everyone (Even people asking innocent questions) and she'll just erupt over anything and everything on a pretty continuous basis (One of the incidents that sticks out in my mind is that we'd had a pretty good day, we'd settled down for a curry in the evening and because i'd fogotten to buy Naan bread she pretty much threw her tea straight in the bin no sooner had it been dished up, demanded I take her to her parents house because I was a bastard and finished the night off by punting a full fresh baked loaf I'd made for breakfast the next day up the garden)

Obviously once she'd calmed down and taken her medication she felt absolutely mortified by what she'd done. couldnt apologise enough and spent the rest of the next day on and off crying over it...

The thing to bear in mind is that both of the women you know (The one on and the one off the medication) are effectively the same woman at different ends of the emotional spectrum. Dont see them as seperate people, see them as her at her best and her at her worst. As someone who doesnt suffer from mental health issues (Unless ADHD counts) I treat my partner when she's in a low place as I would want to be treated if I was at my absolute lowest. It can be rediculously frustrating at times (Particularly if she has a very quick change in tempriment...seriously; there has been at least a dozen (Maybe more) times where she'll do a complete 180 over an idea she either hated or loved less than an hour ago which can really fudge up meet ups, date nights and family visits) but I've found just rolling with her as best I can is all you can really do. Appreciate that when shes medicated and feeling good its probably on a par with you if you were having a particularly good day, when shes feeling bad be there for her, give her as much space as she wants/needs and be prepared to take the rough with the smooth when she eventually comes out the other side. I see medication as a way of helping her not jump in front of a bus at the next possible opportunity and shes described it to me as "It doesnt make me feel any different it just Dulls the knife point that Depression has...I dont feel ecstatic, I dont feel sad...I feel bleh."

But in short; dont worry about whether you think your partners medication is keeping her "True self" from you, accept that both sides of her personality are her and enjoy the time you have together. because you never really know what could happen next week, next month or even this afternoon.

[Ray Travez]

(Sort of replying to the original post, plus a few general thoughts)

I don't know, it seems to me that you're asking a question about authenticity. Is the person you are with 'authentic', if her reality is always augmented to some degree by a drug? I don't know the answer to that. Possibly there is no such thing as a fixed, 'authentic self', as the person is always in flux. The person at 50 is not the same as the person at 6 months old; the person at lunchtime is not the same as the person at 1am. in bed. So, the only authenticity is to be found in the moment, and it is always authentic, always the only possibility in that moment, whether it is affected by drugs, or the weather, or anything else that is happening.

Would it make a difference if you didn't know she was taking the drug? You would have to assume in that case that you were indeed relating to the 'real' her.

Do you feel something is missing in the relationship? It sounds like you are dissatisfied in some way. Do you feel you would be more connected to her if she wasn't taking the drug, even if it made the relationship more difficult?

I'm quite negative about antidepressants myself, for various reasons. Not much interest in discussing my own feelings about them, but I will say that for me, the pay-off wasn't worth the side-effects, and the net effect of them was to make my life far worse. I thought Johan Hari's recent book was an interesting exploration of their use and abuse.

[tookish]

Even if you had good reason to believe that they're "stabilising brain chemistry" (and I don't think you do), relying on that as a justification for according someone on antidepressants dignity as 'real' seems fairly dangerous.

Not least because your understanding of the action of antidepressants is open to change - what if three decades later you're convinced that the pills' effects can't be described in those terms? Do you now write off those three decades of experience?

Any approach to this which minimises what someone's like, how they feel and so on in favour of deferring to whether they meet some criteria for supposed biochemical or biomechanical normalcy has a whole host of problems.

(In fairness, you then follow up with "if she's happy than that's good".)

I confess I don't understand this comment at all, Zetetic.
Would you mind breaking it down for me?
I can see I've said something you find offensive or dismissive, for which I am sorry, but I can't work out what it is.

[ASFTSN]

What do people think about the fact that given the current culture -  readiness of GPs to prescribe medication, the prevalence of people able to self-diagnose using the internet, possible bias towards those with empirical evidence of it working for them being more willing to speak up, more openness in general about mental health compared to a few generations ago - that there will inevitably be patients out there on anti-depressants that shouldn't be?

I'm not trying to be a cunt.  I am depressed ( I think).  I've been to therapy and none of it's really worked for me in the big picture.  I've often wondered about whether I should be on the pills, but then I just think, well, I've not got it 'bad enough'.  I (sort of) have a job.  I'm functional.  I just have very little confidence or belief in myself or in things improving over time.

It's just something I always wonder about - I know at least one person who has told me antidepressants have "ruined her life".  I know another that with no history of depression, suddenly decided he was depressed, got   You can balance that against more people I know saying that they helped.

Statistically though, the more these things get prescribed, the more there will be people out there using them as the doctor recommended, even if it's not appropriate, right?  It worries me - most of the world is miserable (like CaB) but most people aren't inqusitive and thoughtful (unlike CaB) and won't question what their GP gives them, or what the internet says.  Antidepressants = not being unhappy, so it's a no brainer.

[ieXush2i]

I confess I don't understand this comment at all, Zetetic.
Would you mind breaking it down for me?
I can see I've said something you find offensive or dismissive, for which I am sorry, but I can't work out what it is.

I think he's responding to Shoulders

[Endicott]

I confess I don't understand this comment at all, Zetetic.
Would you mind breaking it down for me?
I can see I've said something you find offensive or dismissive, for which I am sorry, but I can't work out what it is.

The phrase 'stabilising brain chemistry' (or something very close to it) has been already used by several other posters including the OP and Zet and at least one other (UtterShit?) have suggested that this is not a good way to describe the action of anti-depressants. I don't think he was having a go, although he was might possibly have been getting exasperated at the repetition. They haven't clearly (copywrite pancreas) stated what's wrong with it either.

I think he's responding to Shoulders

Shoulders doesn't even have a reply on this page.

[Danger Man]

Is the person you are with 'authentic', if her reality is always augmented to some degree by a drug?

It's interesting that it's cheating when it comes to mental illnesses but not physical ones.

If the OP ever breaks his leg and is screaming for morphine hopefully somebody will point out that he's dulling himself to the real highs and lows of life.

[tookish]

It's interesting that it's cheating when it comes to mental illnesses but not physical ones.

If the OP ever breaks his leg and is screaming for morphine hopefully somebody will point out that he's dulling himself to the real highs and lows of life.

I agree with this, completely.
I've had far too many people refer to my a/ds and a/ps etc as a 'crutch.'
But I also use a crutch in order to comfortably walk, and people far less often question its necessity.
What is the sense of needlessly suffering and living with reduced function when there are medications and mobility aids to assist us with leading a better life?

[tookish]

The phrase 'stabilising brain chemistry' (or something very close to it) has been already used by several other posters including the OP and Zet and at least one other (UtterShit?) have suggested that this is not a good way to describe the action of anti-depressants. I don't think he was having a go, although he was might possibly have been getting exasperated at the repetition. They haven't clearly (copywrite pancreas) stated what's wrong with it either.

Shoulders doesn't even have a reply on this page.

Oh, I don't think he was having a go either - I am just baffled by the response and can't process what is being said to me.

[Zetetic]

You seemed to be saying that it's alright because antidepressants are restoring some kind of semi-objective normalcy to the biochemical stuff in her head.

I think that there are two problems with this.

First, the idea that antidepressants (or most other psychoactive medication) stabilise brain chemistry or fix a fundamental deficit in some biochemical process is flawed. Some people might have underlying differences in their serotonin receptors or what have you, and this might be in part responsible for a predisposition to depression - it is, however, far from the whole story either for those individuals or the much wider mass of people with depression. Mostly it's not at all clear that these drugs restore the meat to some idealised state.

Second, the principle that there's an objectively appropriate state for someone's head to be in at all. We shouldn't be trying to judge how authentic or real someone is by this standard.

I felt that the second of these is tied to a dangerous trend that seeks to prove the reality of someone's distress by reference to what their meat looks like (by MRI or genetics testing or what have you) rather than by listening to them and seeing how they think and feel.

(Which isn't to dismiss physical investigation as a method of understanding what causes distress.)

[tookish]

You seemed to be saying that it's alright because antidepressants are restoring some kind of semi-objective normalcy to the biochemical stuff in her head.

I think that there are two problems with this.

First, the idea that antidepressants (or most other psychoactive medication) stabilise brain chemistry or fix a fundamental deficit in some biochemical process is flawed. Some people might have underlying differences in their serotonin receptors or what have you, and this might be in part responsible for a predisposition to depression - it is, however, far from the whole story either for those individuals or the much wider mass of people with depression. Mostly it's not at all clear that these drugs restore the meat to some idealised state.

Second, the principle that there's an objectively appropriate state for someone's head to be in at all. We shouldn't be trying to judge how authentic or real someone is by this standard.

I felt that the second of these is tied to a dangerous trend that seeks to prove the reality of someone's distress by reference to what their meat looks like (by MRI or genetics testing or what have you) rather than by listening to them and seeing how they think and feel.

(Which isn't to dismiss physical investigation as a method of understanding what causes distress.)

Okay, I see.

What I was basically doing, albeit clumsily, is trying to show compassion for a perspective I fundamentally disagree with - trying to understand why S?/S is concerned and express empathy while also disagreeing that there is necessarily a need for concern.

I certainly don't think that taking medication makes someone less authentic. From a personal perspective, and similar to what SMBH was saying, I feel *more* authentic while taking medication.

My understanding of how antidepressants affect brain chemistry is based on how it has been explained to me by my psychiatrist and I don't claim to have any expert knowledge!

[ieXush2i]

The phrase 'stabilising brain chemistry' (or something very close to it) has been already used by several other posters including the OP and Zet and at least one other (UtterShit?) have suggested that this is not a good way to describe the action of anti-depressants. I don't think he was having a go, although he was might possibly have been getting exasperated at the repetition. They haven't clearly (copywrite pancreas) stated what's wrong with it either.

Shoulders doesn't even have a reply on this page.

Oh aye!

[Cuellar]

I certainly don't think that taking medication makes someone less authentic. From a personal perspective, and similar to what SMBH was saying, I feel *more* authentic while taking medication.

Yeah me n all.

[ieXush2i]

Is someone with diabetes more "authentic" when not taking insulin?

[Zetetic]

I certainly don't think that taking medication makes someone less authentic. From a personal perspective, and similar to what SMBH was saying, I feel *more* authentic while taking medication.

Understood - and I think that feeling is the most important thing, even if it's not the only important thing.

I recognise that you also emphasised her happiness.

[Cuellar]

You know who else wanted to live 'authentically'? Martin Heidegger.

And people say he's just a big pair of tits

And he was a massive Nazi, so think on.