Irish Abortion Referendum

[buttgammon]

In a few weeks time, Ireland will hold a referendum on removing the amendment in its constitution that prohibits abortion in the vast, vast majority of circumstances; it won't legalise abortion per se if it passes, but parliament is almost certain to permit it up to 12 weeks.

Not being an Irish citizen, I'm not able to vote, so I've felt quite impotent just doing what I can (which has basically entailed handing out some leaflets, wearing a badge and giving a small amount of money to the 'yes' campaign'). The most obvious effect of the campaign has been the litter of signs and posters, many of which make exceptionally misleading claims. The 'no' campaign has been infantile, and has to be up there with some of the stuff from the Brexit referendum in terms of dubious claims and emotional blackmail. They can't make their mind up on whether allowing abortion up to 12 weeks means murdering 9 week old foetuses, slaughtering them at 6 months or allowing a Holocaust of infants up to birth. The emotive language (a simple example being babies rather than foetuses) has annoyed me an awful lot. There are also plenty of weird 'statistics' on posters (one in five babies in England are aborted, apparently).

The unofficial groups have been even weirder. Some mental Americans and their accolytes have been hauling around very disturbing images and screaming abuse at people in my college who are registering to vote, despite everybody - including the 'no' side - begging them to stop. It also appears John Wanoa has been canvassing in my area, if these posters spotted by a local councillor are anything to go by:



Why is it that anti-abortion activists are often the biggest advertisements for abortion?

[rjd2]

relatively confident this will be passed. I know the nervous people constantly talk about silent majority, brexit, Trump etc, but I have not seen enough hard evidence that no will win in the polls that have been published. With Brexit, it was quite easy at this stage to predict an upset.

Looking at all the various constituencies, no will have to perform a lot of upsets also.

The level of the debate online has been toxic, but that's the way with everything these days.

[JesusAndYourBush]

[tag] Butthole Surfers early drafts [/tag]

[Isnt Anything]

[tag] Butthole Surfers early drafts [/tag]

damnit you just beat me to it

[Sebastian Cobb]

Put a tenner on each way at 20/1.

[Blinder Data]

Would be great if yes won but I can see it failing. Voting for gay rights is fun and positive. I can't see the same energy manifesting itself this time - abortion is a tough sell

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Choice is an easy sell

Self-determination is an easy sell

Empowerment is an easy sell

[gilbertharding]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland#Mass_grave

paragraph 5: 'Mass Grave'
paragraph 6: 'Inquiry into child abuse'
paragraph 8: 'State apology and compensation'
paragraph 9: 'Catholic reaction' (actually, this is probably the one which made me most angry).

Then there's the 800 dead babies they found in a septic tank at the Bons Secours home for unmarried mothers in Tuam.

Apparently it's only 'murder' if they haven't been born yet.

[gilbertharding]

Choice is an easy sell

Self-determination is an easy sell

Empowerment is an easy sell

One of the ideas the 'pro-life' side seems to be quite keen on promoting is the image of hundreds and thousands of empowered women cheerfully dispatching their unborn babies, without a backward glance.

[Dex Sawash]

I'M all for a hard brexit but aborting an entire nation seems extreme

[rjd2]

One of the ideas the 'pro-life' side seems to be quite keen on promoting is the image of hundreds and thousands of empowered women cheerfully dispatching their unborn babies, without a backward glance.

The idea of "abortion on demand" is a constant term that is been used by the "pro life" brigade. It's a term that does not make sense, as an abortion is a genuinely traumatic experience, people aren't suddenly going to become all flippant about it and bragging about it in public.

[buttgammon]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland#Mass_grave

paragraph 5: 'Mass Grave'
paragraph 6: 'Inquiry into child abuse'
paragraph 8: 'State apology and compensation'
paragraph 9: 'Catholic reaction' (actually, this is probably the one which made me most angry).

Then there's the 800 dead babies they found in a septic tank at the Bons Secours home for unmarried mothers in Tuam.

Apparently it's only 'murder' if they haven't been born yet.

This is one of the most bizarre things about the situation in Ireland - there are plenty of situations where it feels as though the unborn have more rights than the living; it's certainly a bizarre conception of the 'right to life'.

[gilbertharding]

They* believe in the supremacy of a misogynistic old man who lives in the sky, who sees and judges everything you do and think - so perhaps the notion that all women will be blithely disposing of the product of casual fornication if you only let them isn't so far fetched. Who knows?

*the religious, not 'the Irish'.

[Keebleman]

Choice is an easy sell

Self-determination is an easy sell

Empowerment is an easy sell

Not if they involve the death of a human being.

[Flouncer]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland#Mass_grave

paragraph 5: 'Mass Grave'
paragraph 6: 'Inquiry into child abuse'
paragraph 8: 'State apology and compensation'
paragraph 9: 'Catholic reaction' (actually, this is probably the one which made me most angry).

Then there's the 800 dead babies they found in a septic tank at the Bons Secours home for unmarried mothers in Tuam.

Apparently it's only 'murder' if they haven't been born yet.

I don't mean to tar all religious people with the same brush - I have two close friends who are Christians and they are both absolutely wonderful people and every bit as open-minded and tolerant as the rest of my mates - but for some people, religion is just a cynical cover for doing the most horrible shit to people - merely a cloak to hide behind; a crowd to disappear into and be affirmed by. It must be nice, when you've done something morally repugnant, to have a mechanism to absolve you of your sins rather than having to deal with what you've done. Fancy doing stuff like that to people then being able to tell yourself that you were doing them a favour and that they should be grateful to you. Rotten cunts.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Not if they involve the death of a human being.

Something that's growing to become a human being, but until then is physically part of the mother, dependent on the mother for its existence and by any logical reasoning should remain entirely within the governance of the mother unless the mother is severely impeded in some way that warrants a decision taken on their behalf.

What makes it a hard sell is the % of Catholics in the population and the religious dogma that accompanies that.

[Danger Man]

Choice is an easy sell

Self-determination is an easy sell

Empowerment is an easy sell

Not in backward countries that give the Saudis a run for their money.

Lucky them that the true measure of civilization is the quality of the pubs.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Choice is an easy sell

Self-determination is an easy sell

Empowerment is an easy sell

baby death, eh not so easy

[checkoutgirl]

The 'no' campaign has been infantile, and has to be up there with some of the stuff from the Brexit referendum in terms of dubious claims and emotional blackmail.

The billboards for the No campaign have been really lowest common denominator stuff. When I first saw them a few weeks ago I remember thinking that we've finally been invaded by American style shock tactics. To the point where I was convinced the funding and strategy of the campaign had actually come directly from America. Loads of pictures of startled toddlers with speech bubbles saying "You wouldn't kill ickle me would you?" and that kind of thing.

I shan't be voting as I've never voted for anything in my life and I don't want to break my run. Politically I believe 2 things about abortion.

1. It is clearly murder.
2. I completely support it.

[idunnosomename]

Ooh it's a toughie ain't it

[Enzo]

I've been canvassing in Cork for this. Pretty solid yes vote, albeit in an urban area.

Turnout will be key as the rural areas will swing further to No then they did in the marriage equality vote.

[buttgammon]

I've been canvassing in Cork for this. Pretty solid yes vote, albeit in an urban area.

Turnout will be key as the rural areas will swing further to No then they did in the marriage equality vote.

Yes, this is my suspicion too. Canvassing is more or less suspended here (South Dublin) because the feedback was so overwhelmingly positive. This is one of only five constituencies that voted against the eighth amendment being introduced in the first place, so it's not surprising to see. It's other areas that I'm more worried about and like you say, the rural vote will swing more to the 'no' side, so the rural/urban balance could play a big part. As with a lot of elections and referendums, I think getting a high turnout among younger voters will be very important too.

[bgmnts]

Would be great if yes won but I can see it failing. Voting for gay rights is fun and positive. I can't see the same energy manifesting itself this time - abortion is a tough sell

For every abortion, you get a free baby.

[Bronzy]

Would be great if yes won but I can see it failing. Voting for gay rights is fun and positive. I can't see the same energy manifesting itself this time - abortion is a tough sell

Gay rights is fun because you get to see woman kiss woman and it tingles down below whereas dead baby = no tingle

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

2. I completely support it.

Apart from, apparently, actually supporting it.

[idunnosomename]

I would ban the creation of babies in the first place

[yesitsme]

I genuinely don't understand what's in it for anti-abortionists.

The energy they put in to making an already tough decision (either way) even more stressful could surely be better directed actually doing some good in the community. 

I've noticed a lot of dead babies cropping up on my Twitter feed and I can almost feel the glee with which they were posted coming through my screen.

I don't need to see aborted bodies in the same way I don't need to see how corned beef is made.

If I was a doctor I'd draw a Hitler tache on every wean I scooped out and go 'Phew!  Thank Christ for that!  That's the 10th one today!'

My opinion on abortion is that unless you have been in the position where you've had to make the choice then you should keep your mouth shut and keep you opinion to yourself.

And if you have been in that position you should also keep your mouth shut and your opinion to yourself.

[Z]

I genuinely don't understand what's in it for anti-abortionists.

In my neighbours case, they spent a solid 15 years trying to conceive and the no campaign materials are extremely triggering.


For a lot of them it's just a really lazy way to tell themselves they're a good person though.

[rjd2]

Abortion on demand needs to be stopped as the danger it will become little more than a fashion accessory is something I have heard way to much and nope not just from old people either.

[yesitsme]

It's basically a women hating set of ideals handed down from the stone age isn't it?

I remember at school how we had SPUC and all that shower in assembly all the time telling us how babies heads get 'twisted off' like onions on a string and all sorts of harrowing tales.  Babies crying and all that shite.

Catholic 'education' for you there.

I'm a 100pc sure that Jesus would prefer a child not to be born than be born in to a world of hunger, violence and neglet.

But that Jesus can be a right fucking two faced cunt when he wants can't he?