Irish Abortion Referendum

[bgmnts]

https://amp.theguardian.com/music/2018/may/19/ed-sheeran-denounces-use-of-song-in-anti-abortion-campaign-in-ireland

Credit where its due.

[Enzo]

I put up a shitload of yes posters around East Cork over the last week and apparently most have been ripped down within 24 hours.

cunts.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

In Dublin both sides were sporting enough to have each lamppost display two equally strong opposing views.

[buttgammon]

I've spotted a few torn-down yes posters round here (South Dublin), and when the no side started sticking posters up my street, they turned the yes posters to face away from oncoming traffic. They've also put up a billboard that is visible from my window; it's an attempt to defame the health minister by quoting him as saying "The state will fund abortions." "And what's wrong with that?" I say to myself whenever I see it.

Education is a big issue. Well over 90% of Irish schools have a Catholic ethos, and this has a seriously negative effect on sex education. It's even hampering attempts to get younger people to engage with this referendum. One of my girlfriend's best friends is a teacher, and the other day, he was supervising a class in the last year of school, most of whom will have just become eligible to vote. A girl in the class was helping a lot of her peers register to vote (not pushing an agenda or telling them how to vote, just helping them with the paperwork) and they all got into trouble. Crazy.

The teacher friend and a colleague of his have had to make a complaint, because one of the teachers in their school sees fit to lecture everyone on the ills of abortion and parade around wearing no campaign badges etc, but she kicked a pupil out of class for wearing a yes badge. The fact that the vast majority of state schools here are run by the church is just facilitating nutters like this.

[Z]

Education is a big issue. Well over 90% of Irish schools have a Catholic ethos, and this has a seriously negative effect on sex education.

I'm sure I've said this before, but in 2003 when I was 12, our religion class were shown a few videos on abortion all along the lines of the Silent Scream. Up until Savita Halappanavar's death I'd imagine the overwhelming majority of my class knew nothing about the specifics of abortion asides from what they had seen in those videos.

I can remember our teacher (one of those failed priests who abandoned the seminary right before he was going to be ordained) had a class vote at the end of one of the videos on abortion and I was one of two people who were still in favour of it. Considering all my information on abortion at the time came straight from sources like that, I'm not super sure what that says about me.

The fact that damn near every young primary school teacher in Ireland is a super catholic rural person who questions absolutely nothing means the issues probably aren't going to be solved
any time soon either.




Quite happy to hear from home (west of Ireland, heavily conservative) that the yes voters are being very vocal and putting up new posters every time they get tore down. Even if this referendum fails, the conversation has been shifted; if it fails I suspect there will be a lot of guilt-ridden undecided-to-no voters.

[idunnosomename]

https://amp.theguardian.com/music/2018/may/19/ed-sheeran-denounces-use-of-song-in-anti-abortion-campaign-in-ireland

Credit where its due.

Considering all his albums are abortions I'm not surprised

[buttgammon]

I'm sure I've said this before, but in 2003 when I was 12, our religion class were shown a few videos on abortion all along the lines of the Silent Scream. Up until Savita Halappanavar's death I'd imagine the overwhelming majority of my class knew nothing about the specifics of abortion asides from what they had seen in those videos.

I can remember our teacher (one of those failed priests who abandoned the seminary right before he was going to be ordained) had a class vote at the end of one of the videos on abortion and I was one of two people who were still in favour of it. Considering all my information on abortion at the time came straight from sources like that, I'm not super sure what that says about me.

The fact that damn near every young primary school teacher in Ireland is a super catholic rural person who questions absolutely nothing means the issues probably aren't going to be solved
any time soon either.

Absolutely - having been educated at a secular state school in Britain, the things I hear about the Irish education system are shocking. The friend who has been having trouble with anti-abortion colleagues teaches in a secondary school, and from what I've gathered, the situation is much worse in primary schools.

My girlfriend considered becoming a primary school teacher and one of the reasons why she dropped out of the course was the religious component. From what I've gathered, an awful lot of the training they received was in religious education but that component of the course was taught by a priest, who was a bigot, a bully and a general arsehole. She asked him hypothetical questions and got blanket answers; when asked what to say if a child asks is God real, he said "you tell them He is." When she asked him what if a child asks about same-sex couples, he said "tell them it is a sin." Admittedly, I'm sure there's not much they could do if a teacher simply chose to ignore this part of the course and gave children more nuanced answers to those questions, but the idea that they are still peddling this crap is incredibly depressing. It's such a poor reflection of what modern Ireland is like, too.

There's no way in hell I'd subject a child to this crap, I'd send my children to an Educate Together school.

[Enzo]

Saw the most batshit mental No poster in Bantry earlier. Even better than the threatening Mother Theresa one.

[Twit 2]

It doesn't even make sense. What is it trying to say?

[porn]

That pro-choicers place the life of an animal above a foetus'. Killing one is seen as cruel and unnecessary while aborting the other is just a choice.

[rjd2]

I put up a shitload of yes posters around East Cork over the last week and apparently most have been ripped down within 24 hours.

cunts.

Is Cork East expected to vote no? When looking at the other 3 areas, was expecting 2 solid yes's and the other to go either way.

I loath the Sherlock mob especially Cora so not watching that RTE debate earlier, but any use?

I was happy with the polls on Sunday, obviously silent no voters but looking at the map of Ireland its going to be very tough for No to win. The Dublin vote looks like it will come out which is a serious issue for no and even without that they were relying on winning so many tough areas . Yes should win, am predicting the yes vote to be around 55 or 56%.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

There will be conservatives who will never accept that a foetus is dependent on, physically part of and therefore property and care of the mother to decide what to do with. It seems pointless attacking them from that angle. However, it is worth attacking the major hypocrisy of their stance

Ask them why they seem to stop caring as soon as it exits the birth canal.

- why do they stigmatise single parents
- why do they support benefit cuts that harm a child that has done nothing wrong
- why do they vote to remove free school meals
- why do they accept poverty as a fact of life rather than something that can be changed
- why do they champion adult suffering and murder in war
- why do they watch/fund violent sport
- why is money more important than the welfare of live humans
- why do you ignore bible teachings about wealth but insist other parts of the Bible must be adhered to
- why is it ok to rape an animal to eventually create your dinner

[buttgammon]

Is Cork East expected to vote no? When looking at the other 3 areas, was expecting 2 solid yes's and the other to go either way.

I loath the Sherlock mob especially Cora so not watching that RTE debate earlier, but any use?

I was happy with the polls on Sunday, obviously silent no voters but looking at the map of Ireland its going to be very tough for No to win. The Dublin vote looks like it will come out which is a serious issue for no and even without that they were relying on winning so many tough areas . Yes should win, am predicting the yes vote to be around 55 or 56%.

I saw the debate last night. Sherlock pulled out so it was Peadar Tóibín from Sinn Féin instead. Considering his party supports a yes vote (although they haven't done a whole lot of campaigning), I think they should sack him for this. He talked absolute bollocks, basically. He invented a few 'facts' for his own benefit and refused to answer any challenging questions. He came up with some unspecified legal reason why the 12 week limit would become 6 months and kept comparing the proposed law to the British law (I've looked this up and it's completely different). I think I know what he was getting at, though. The British law states "the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family", which is basically a legal fiction to allow anyone to get an abortion up to the limit, as doctors will almost always agree these conditions are met. Tóibín didn't exactly say so, but for other people, this point of comparison has been a way of talking about women "inventing mental health problems" to get an abortion. Some woman who was allegedly a psychiatrist was in the audience, and she made a similar point.

The other big lie was one about aborting foetuses with disabilities; he started talking about Down's syndrome, but Simon Harris pointed out that Down's syndrome charities have repeatedly told them to stop doing this. Tóibín kept talking about this, despite the fact that the 12 week time limit would barely allow enough time for testing (the very earliest can happen is 11 weeks according to some stuff I read last night).

Tóibín said something that implied he thought women who have been raped shouldn't be allowed to access abortions; when Harris, the presenters and an audience member tried to press him on this, evaded the question.

In short, Peadar Tóibín: what a wanker.

As for your prediction, I completely agree with that. Here in Dublin South-West, a lot of people are pointing out that this was one of a handful of constituencies that voted against the introduction of the eighth amendment in the first place, and the response has been very positive.

[EOLAN]

Just saw my favourite new poster. Just for it's extreme simplicity and targeted focused messaged.
White words on green background. No pictures. Just text: "Undecided? Vote No". Equally would have been just as impressed with a Yes voter.
Something about it just seems very Mrs Doyle - ah go on, go on.

My other poster highlight was a Yes poster with one woman and the text "Your Sister, Your Daughter, Your Friend." I just couldn't help feeling it was a Chinatown reference.

[buttgammon]

Has anyone else seen any no campaign ads on The Guardian website? I did yesterday, so I emailed them to complain. They said they aren't directly responsible for the ads but they are currently taking measures to stop users from seeing them.

[to infect aside]

Just saw my favourite new poster. Just for it's extreme simplicity and targeted focused messaged.
White words on green background. No pictures. Just text: "Undecided? Vote No". Equally would have been just as impressed with a Yes voter.
Something about it just seems very Mrs Doyle - ah go on, go on.

I like the white-on-pink 'NO- IT'S TOO EXTREME' ones. It's difficult to imagine that statement being uttered in anything other than a very rural accent.

[saltysnacks]

Foetuses just end up becoming babies, why wouldn't you want to get rid of them?

[Thomas]

The thing about the Irish Constitution at the moment is that it does permit abortion. The thirteenth amendment, approved by referendum in 1992, made it legal for Irish women to travel abroad to procure an abortion elsewhere. The eighth amendment says 'but not at home'.

The current setup, then, openly discriminates against - and criminalises - women who can't travel. The Constitution says 'we're actually okay with abortion, as long as you have the means, money, opportunity, and security to pop abroad at short notice'. It doesn't bar all women in Ireland from procuring safe abortions early in their pregnancies, because some manage to navigate the amendments and quietly pay for the expensive trip overseas - but it certainly traps the most vulnerable.

It's a cold, open hypocrisy. It also does nothing to address the culture within Ireland around abortion - only palms the procedure off to neighbouring countries, expecting the women (eleven a day) to return in silence, to silence.

Next 'No' campaigner I walk past is getting asked about that. Their slogan, 'Love Both', rings pretty hollow.

[Jumblegraws]

Saw the most batshit mental No poster in Bantry earlier. Even better than the threatening Mother Theresa one.

Eh??? What a bizarre 'compare and contrast'. Is the puppy supposed to represent an actual, living, weeks-old pooch - as in the picture - or a dog foetus? Either way it's one of the weirdest moral equivalences I've ever seen, not least because "we intervene to end pets' lives" is usually rendered as an argument in support of legalised assisted dying.

[buttgammon]

Note that the above poster doesn't have a name and address on it, which is illegal.

The thing about the Irish Constitution at the moment is that it does permit abortion. The thirteenth amendment, approved by referendum in 1992, made it legal for Irish women to travel abroad to procure an abortion elsewhere. The eighth amendment says 'but not at home'.

The current setup, then, openly discriminates against - and criminalises - women who can't travel. The Constitution says 'we're actually okay with abortion, as long as you have the means, money, opportunity, and security to pop abroad at short notice'. It doesn't bar all women in Ireland from procuring safe abortions early in their pregnancies, because some manage to navigate the amendments and quietly pay for the expensive trip overseas - but it certainly traps the most vulnerable.

It's a cold, open hypocrisy. It also does nothing to address the culture within Ireland around abortion - only palms the procedure off to neighbouring countries, expecting the women (eleven a day) to return in silence, to silence.

Next 'No' campaigner I walk past is getting asked about that. Their slogan, 'Love Both', rings pretty hollow.

This is a very important point, and it also means the no side seem to be missing the point that, even if the referendum doesn't pass, Irish women will still have abortions. As with Brexit, a lot of people seem to be basing their opinions on fantasies about a country that doesn't exist and probably never existed.

[Thomas]

It's a point I wish had been more visible in the 'Yes' material up to now. Irish women already travel for abortions - It's expensive, degrading, and lonely. Let them do it safely, at home. Something like that on a poster.

I think acknowledging that it already happens, and that the poor and vulnerable are disproportionately affected by the eighth, would give even dead-set No-heads a few seconds' pause. An older fella approached us in the street the other day, and it was his reason for voting Yes, whatever he personally thought of abortion. 'You can't have them risking life and limb going abroad,' he said.

[idunnosomename]

Eh??? What a bizarre 'compare and contrast'. Is the puppy supposed to represent an actual, living, weeks-old pooch - as in the picture - or a dog foetus? Either way it's one of the weirdest moral equivalences I've ever seen, not least because "we intervene to end pets' lives" is usually rendered as an argument in support of legalisation of assisted dying.

Yeah it's fucking bizarre because loads of puppies get euthanised by shelters. Certainly if they have any illnesses. If a dog ever harms a person, bam, off it goes.

[rjd2]

To  lazy to multi quote! No time for Peadar Toibín whatsoever, but I think he should be allowed to campaign whatever way he wants as its such a personal choice. I doubt many Labour supporters would have wanted Dennis Skinner deselected due to him opposing the leadership regarding Brexit.

The blase argument some of the no mob have said "well you can go to England" is infuriating, not everyone especially from a poor and rural background can casually pop over to the UK for many obvious reasons.

Maria Steen is on the Pat Kenny debate later, Christ.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

It's a point I wish had been more visible in the 'Yes' material up to now. Irish women already travel for abortions - It's expensive, degrading, and lonely. Let them do it safely, at home. Something like that on a poster.

I think acknowledging that it already happens, and that the poor and vulnerable are disproportionately affected by the eighth, would give even dead-set No-heads a few seconds' pause. An older fella approached us in the street the other day, and it was his reason for voting Yes, whatever he personally thought of abortion. 'You can't have them risking life and limb going abroad,' he said.

I'm surprised how most of the posters simply have NO or YES with the nominal effect of one cancelling out the other. The most effective ones were as you say, those briefly summarising the cause of female empowerment.

[ieXush2i]

It's a point I wish had been more visible in the 'Yes' material up to now. Irish women already travel for abortions - It's expensive, degrading, and lonely. Let them do it safely, at home. Something like that on a poster.

There's a sizeable number of people who would love to make abortion trips to Liverpool illegal as well.

[Bronzy]

There's a sizeable number of people who would love to make abortion trips to Liverpool illegal as well.

No wonder, I mean, Liverpool? It's already upsetting enough.

[darby o chill]

Dublin today (from FB)

[Bronzy]

It's amazing that in a (I assume) modern nation like Ireland abortion is still illegal. I mean I can probably guess why (Cataholicsism) but still.

[idunnosomename]

Dublin today (from FB)

guess we need to relax the laws on abortion for that then

[Zetetic]

There will be conservatives who will never accept that a foetus is dependent on, physically part of and therefore property and care of the mother to decide what to do with.

Property rights aren't the appropriate paradigm for human lives. (Edit: In the UK at least we've generally rejected them as the appropriate paradigm for human bodies, our own or others, I note.)

Even if they were, we have plenty of obligations with respect to 'property' and limitations with what we can do with it.