Roy Chubby Brown - Disconnecting Desolation (Seeking advice)

[Phoenix Lazarus]

why would his father be Jewish?

Coz Manning's a bare-faced bellend?

[Jumblegraws]

Whether he stole it or not, I think 'unorthodox' works much better. Why would a very reformed rabbi be a nazi? It's a stretch, while unorthodox is just sitting there, don't know why Allen didn't see it. Probably too busy thinking about diddling children.

Well, that's the joke. Reformed Judaism is that which diverged from what we consequently refer to as Orthodox Judaism. So Allen's gag stretches this notion of "Reformed" to an absurdity. But no-one would refer to a non-Orthodox Jew as "unorthodox", at least no one familiar with the parlance, so when Manning says "unorthodox Jew" he may as well be saying "strange Jew" which doesn't have the same appeal to absurdity as Allen's version imo.

[Dr Rock]

Nah. Reformed Jew doesn't lead to Nazi. The joke doesn't really work, and I'm a fan of Allen's stand-up. To the extent that it does work, in that it will get a laugh, it's much improved if you introduce the concept of an unorthodox Jew. Of course there's no such thing, but you get some humour from the fact you turned "orthodox Jew' which is a thing into 'unorthodox Jew' which isn't but it makes some sense - as does being unorthodox leading to being so unorthodox that you are a Nazi, which is very unorthodox indeed. I don't think you need the 'fucking' in there though.

[Jumblegraws]

Nah. Reformed Jew doesn't lead to Nazi. The joke doesn't really work, and I'm a fan of Allen's stand-up. To the extent that it does work, in that it will get a laugh, it's much improved if you introduce the concept of an unorthodox Jew. Of course there's no such thing, but you get some humour from the fact you turned "orthodox Jew' which is a thing into 'unorthodox Jew' which isn't but it makes some sense - as does being unorthodox leading to being so unorthodox that you are a Nazi, which is very unorthodox indeed. I don't think you need the 'fucking' in there though.

Think we just fundamentally disagree. Grounding the joke with reference to the actual Reform movement leavens the joke beyond merely juxtaposing "Jew" with "Nazi", which I feel is the whole of the humour in manning's version, although I ackowledge that you credit him with a bit of wordplay over Orthodox/unorthodox.

EDIT TO ADD: Thinking about it, jokes within the Jewish community about the differences between the demoninations were probably old hat by the time Allen told that joke, so his version of the gag could also be read as a subversion of the strand of Jewish humour. I was trying to find an online copy of the "Jew realises he's slept with a prosititute on Yom Kippur, visits ultra-Orthodox rabbi and then reform rabbi, har-de-har at difference in response" joke that I read in one of my late-grandmother's joke books to illustrate this point but Google has failed me.

[Dr Rock]

Yes, it's a matter of taste, Manning's loathesomeness aside. I'm not one of those people who say 'he may have been a cunt but he could tell a joke.' I don't think he had many good jokes and I don't rate his craftsmanship. But on that joke, well as I said, I prefer Manning's version (which he probably nicked off someone else anyway).

[Thomas]

I actually think the specificity of detail in 'Reformed rabbi' just pips 'unorthodox Jew'.

Odd couple of comedians to be choosing between, though. Shame we'll never see that Roast Battle they were supposed to have.

[pigamus]

Nah. Reformed Jew doesn't lead to Nazi. The joke doesn't really work, and I'm a fan of Allen's stand-up. To the extent that it does work, in that it will get a laugh, it's much improved if you introduce the concept of an unorthodox Jew. Of course there's no such thing, but you get some humour from the fact you turned "orthodox Jew' which is a thing into 'unorthodox Jew' which isn't but it makes some sense - as does being unorthodox leading to being so unorthodox that you are a Nazi, which is very unorthodox indeed. I don't think you need the 'fucking' in there though.

Yep. 'Unorthodox' is a lovely word. Hard to believe Bernard Manning could have improved a Woody Allen joke, but I think he did.

[Zetetic]

the specificity of detail in 'Reformed rabbi'

I think there's a problem with "very Reformed" though.

If you're not aware of the jargon meaning of 'Reform' here then the joke simply doesn't work well.

If you are then the two meanings fight against each other rather than being smoothly ambiguous. It should probably be "Reform" rather than "Reformed" for the jargon sense anyway, and "very Reformed" is just a nonsense if you're trying to bear in mind the jargon sense.

"Very unorthodox" avoids this - the "unorthodox" references "Orthodox" without then being constrained by any peculiarities of use.

[Dr Rock]

Looking for evidence of Manning telling the joke, particularly whether he was claiming his dad was a Jew, I can't find the joke on video (even after watching a zero laughs 'best of Bernard Manning compilation that was supposed to feature the joke). What I do find is the joke attributed to him, but some people say he said 'my mate's an unorthodox Jew' others say the line was referring to his grandfather, his uncle or a teacher. Anyone know where to find the exact joke?

[Isnt Anything]

The BBC had a blanket ban on God Save The Queen and Relax, and more recently, Ding Dong! The Witch Is Dead wasn't played on Radio 1's top 40 show when it got to number 2 after Thatcher died. They've banned loads of songs before so I don't know why they even bothered letting Smokie/Chubby Brown and Technohead on TOTP.

Well quite, hence my surprise.

I think Ric Blaxill was doing his best to keep people watching TOTP at the time tbf

I guess that must be it !

[Jumblegraws]

I think there's a problem with "very Reformed" though.

If you're not aware of the jargon meaning of 'Reform' here then the joke simply doesn't work well.

If you are then the two meanings fight against each other rather than being smoothly ambiguous. It should probably be "Reform" rather than "Reformed" for the jargon sense anyway, and "very Reformed" is just a nonsense if you're trying to bear in mind the jargon sense.

"Very unorthodox" avoids this - the "unorthodox" references "Orthodox" without then being constrained by any peculiarities of use.

He does say "reform" with no -ed in the routine, didn't seem worth correcting this in the post where the joke was originally mentioned. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but I'm not sure what you mean by "very Reformed" being just a nonsense, I hear Reform being used in this way as a measure of how liberal a synagogue is quite a lot.

I'm not sure I would class Reform in this context as jargon. The fact that you describe it as such though does indicate that Manning took the joke and repurposed it for an audience that might not be familiar with the term.

I wonder which version Chubby likes better.

[Dr Rock]

I can't imagine Manning listening to Woody Allen's stand-up, could happen but as I say I bet he nicked it off someone else, if he did somehow hear Allen's stand-up I don't think he'd even have the wit to change it to the arguably better version. I could be underestimating him.

[yesitsme]

I watched a Chubby Brown show a while back, one baffling collection of words he put together ran along the lines of him describing how a woman farted while he was giving her oral pleasure.  'I was seeing ch**ks, pakis, funking everything...' he says.  Massive laugh from the audience, I mean massive.  What the fuck is he on about?

I suppose it's all well and good trying to be creative and different but what you should realize is that there's an awful lot of middle out there, aim for the bottom half of the middle and you'll do very well for yourself.

If anyone can explain the above 'joke' I'll sleep better tonight.

[Endicott]

I watched a Chubby Brown show a while back, one baffling collection of words he put together ran along the lines of him describing how a woman farted while he was giving her oral pleasure.  'I was seeing ch**ks, pakis, funking everything...' he says.  Massive laugh from the audience, I mean massive.  What the fuck is he on about?

If anyone can explain the above 'joke' I'll sleep better tonight.

Um...  the forrins smell bad?  Enjoy your kip later.

[Blue Jam]

Whether he stole it or not, I think 'unorthodox' works much better. Why would a very reformed rabbi be a nazi? It's a stretch, while unorthodox is just sitting there, don't know why Allen didn't see it. Probably too busy thinking about diddling children.

...and what is a "reformed rabbi" anyway? "unorthodox jew" may not be the antonym of "Orthodox Jew" but it's still a lot funnier than "reformed rabbi".

[Jumblegraws]

...and what is a "reformed rabbi" anyway? "unorthodox jew" may not be the antonym of "Orthodox Jew" but it's still a lot funnier than "reformed rabbi".

He actually says Reform rabbi

[Endicott]

He actually says Reform rabbi

Woody's version is more accurate, and arguably that makes it funnier. However very few people outside of the Jewish community will have had any clue what Reformed Judaism is, and so it will fall completely flat for them. 'Unorthodox jew' at least makes some logical sense to the uninitiated.

[Jumblegraws]

Woody's version is more accurate, and arguably that makes it funnier. However very few people outside of the Jewish community will have had any clue what Reformed Judaism is, and so it will fall completely flat for them. 'Unorthodox jew' at least makes some logical sense to the uninitiated.

Yeah, that's basically the conclusion I've come to reading this thread. Incidentally, the joke is quoted on Wikipedia's article about Jewish humour in the Religion subsection:

on differences between Orthodox, Conservative and Reform movements:

An Orthodox, a Conservative, and a Reform rabbi are each asked whether one is supposed to say a brokhe (blessing) over a lobster (non-kosher food, normally not eaten by religious Jews).

The Orthodox rabbi asks, "What is this...'lobster'...thing?" The Conservative rabbi doesn't know what to say, muttering about responsa. The Reform rabbi says, "What's a brokhe?"

In particular, Reform Jews may be lampooned for their rejection of traditional Jewish beliefs. An example, from one of Woody Allen's early stand-up routines:

We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi.

[Endicott]

One might also consider the expected difference in knowledge between Woody Allen's stand up audience, and Bernard Manning's audience. I can well imagine Manning, if he did indeed steal it, rewriting it from Reform to unorthodox to make it work for his audience.

[yesitsme]

Um...  the forrins smell bad?  Enjoy your kip later.

That makes even less sense.  Now I'm even more confused.

Look, a 'very reformed rabbi' could be anything.  There's nothing more 'unorthodox' than a Jewish Nazi.  Case closed, one-nil to the dead man!

I would have loved to have seen Woody's crowd down at the WFEC.  Fuckin' ell, 'eed 'av 'ad a fuckin' field day. 

[Jumblegraws]

Look, a 'very reformed rabbi' could be anything.  There's nothing more 'unorthodox' than a Jewish Nazi.  Case closed, one-nil to the dead man!

Goysplaining territory firmly entered at this point.

[Annie Labuntur]

That makes even less sense.  Now I'm even more confused.

Look, a 'very reformed rabbi' could be anything.  There's nothing more 'unorthodox' than a Jewish Nazi.  Case closed, one-nil to the dead man!

It's "Reform rabbi". Reform Judaism was a split from Orthodox Judaism. There is really no such thing as Unorthodox Judaism, so "Reform rabbi" makes sense in a way that "unorthodox Jew" doesn't.  If Manning had said something like "wasn't exactly an Orthodox jew... he was a Nazi", it would have made more sense.

Fair enough if you think Manning's version is funnier*, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with the words in Allen's.

In short, Jumblegraws is right.

*  _{^{it isn't}}

[Zetetic]

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but I'm not sure what you mean by "very Reformed" being just a nonsense, I hear Reform being used in this way as a measure of how liberal a synagogue is quite a lot.

I defer to you - I'll accept that "Reform" is used of jews or synagogues in this 'degree' sense, in the US at least.

Poking around some corpuses, and searching Google, it's not a very common use anywhere but it clearly does exist. Edit: Actually, I'm going back and forth this - it does seem very rare, but I guess this comes back to audience.

[Zetetic]

^^ "... unorthodox Jew" makes sense, it just doesn't have a full double meaning. It can, at most, reference the concept of an "Orthodox Jew".

[Terryfuckwit]

Question? When you tell this joke in a situation that doesnt require immediate credit, which version will you use?

Me, it's unorthodox jew

[Annie Labuntur]

^^ "... unorthodox Jew" makes sense, it just doesn't have a full double meaning. It can, at most, reference the concept of an "Orthodox Jew".

I agree that it isn't nonsense and it functions as a mechanical joke - but I'm specifically disagreeing with yesitsme's dismissal of Reform rabbi in comparison.

[Annie Labuntur]

I like Woody's joke about asking his analyst for some Bisto.

[Dusty Gozongas]

Lads.

It has come to this?

[yesitsme]

I like Woody's joke about asking his analyst for some Bisto.

Gave me a good laugh when I read that.

'Fuck off you insecure cunt!'

[Enzo]

CORK Opera House has cancelled a gig by a comedian whose humour has been described as "repulsive" and "offensive" by city councillors.

UK-based Royston Vasey, who performs under the stage name of Roy 'Chubby' Brown, was due to perform at the venue on June 10.

Cork Opera House had billed the show as containing "politically incorrect jokes" that are "delivered with a cheeky grin and perfect comedy timing".

The management of Cork Opera House — which receives arts grants from Cork City and County Councils and also programme funding from the Arts Council for certain cultural events — has decided to cancel the show deeming it "unsuitable" for a venue that receives public funding.

After being contacted by the Evening Echo regarding the controversial content of the comedian's act, the venue released this statement. "Following feedback received from our patrons, Cork Opera House further considered its position in relation to presenting this comedian."

The Opera House statement added: "Following consultation between its executive, board and stakeholders, the venue decided that the content of this show was unsuitable for presentation by a publicly funded theatre. Patrons who have purchased tickets will be fully refunded." He has previously been banned from performing at a number of local authority owned venues in the UK. His routines have involved jokes about Islam, asylum seekers and members of the LGBT community.

Kate Moynihan, of Cork LINC, which advocates for lesbian and bisexual women in Ireland, said: "We do not condone this type of 'humour' and thankfully, it is being challenged in schools, colleges and workspaces all over the city."

Padraig Rice, coordinator of the Cork Gay Project, said Mr Vasey's jokes are "dated and culturally irrelevant" but added he had a right to free speech as long as it did not incite hatred.

"I believe in the right to free speech, a right that should only be limited when someone is inciting hatred. Roy 'Chubby' Brown like everyone else has the right to make bad jokes."

Opera House board member, Councillor Des Cahill (FG), contacted Opera House board chairman Tim Healy regarding the matter.

"He's a repulsive character. [However] most comedians will touch a nerve with some people," he said. Councillor Terry Shannon (FF), also a board member of the Opera House, said he was surprised to see the comedian had been booked at the venue in the first place.

Councillor Terry Shannon (FF), also a board member of the Opera House, said he was surprised to see the comedian had been booked at the venue and described his humour as "raw" and "offensive".

Chubby banned from Cork. Apparently a couple of other places have pulled his gigs as well.