The Predator

[St_Eddie]

Second trailer - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJoJw-jqEuI

Well, it's better than the last trailer but it still looks shite, in my opinion.

Absolutely. Fincher films are usually very good too, but "Alien 3 is better than Aliens" is just silly. I'm pretty sure not even Fincher thinks that. Is it not just that you've all seen Aliens a million times, and the later cut of Alien 3 is better than the release version? You really think it's better?

*goes off to work out some stupid defence for why Terminator 3 is better than Terminator 2*

Why are people not allowed to have opinions?

I consider Aliens is an objectively superior work of art to Alien 3.  However, I subjectively prefer Alien 3 to Aliens.  I'm sorry if you can't process that information.  Quite frankly, it's not your place to tell me that I'm "silly".

Oh, and who cares if somebody prefers Terminator 3 to Terminator 2?  It's not an opinion which I personally hold myself but honestly, who are you to tell anyone that they're wrong for having an opinion about a film?

[Malcy]

Yeah it does look a bit crap. I enjoyed Predators but this looks like they've merged 1 & 2.

[Replies From View]

Absolutely. Fincher films are usually very good too, but "Alien 3 is better than Aliens" is just silly. I'm pretty sure not even Fincher thinks that. Is it not just that you've all seen Aliens a million times, and the later cut of Alien 3 is better than the release version? You really think it's better?

*goes off to work out some stupid defence for why Terminator 3 is better than Terminator 2*

I saw Alien³ before Aliens, and prefer the former.  I also prefer the theatrical cut to the extended version, which feels incomplete with its more dodgy effects work, unfinished audio, and decision to retain the ox when it makes more sense for the dog-like Alien to have come from a dog.

Aliens is undoubtedly a superlative action movie if that is your preferred movie style.  I think it does what it does very well indeed, and there some stand-out scenes, particularly the one where Ripley and Newt are stuck in the room with the facehugger, and the whole climax with the Alien Queen.

But I personally still rate Alien³ higher.  It doesn't matter what Fincher personally thinks, and it doesn't matter how much chaos there was behind the scenes.  I personally love the nihilistic atmosphere, the absolute sense of there being no hope, Ripley's knowledge that she is going to die and what that knowledge drives her to do.  The trilogy ends in a way that fans of Aliens hate; I understand that.  But it was brave to take the direction it took, and we should be grateful it exists when pretty much everyone would have been pushing for a sub-Cameron action movie for the third film.  Alien Resurrection and the Alien vs Predator films surely press the buttons for anyone who was crying out for Alien³ to do that.  So everyone should be happy, really.

[mothman]

I cannot make head nor tail of what this film is about from the trailers. It seems like the Predator is now being made out to be this unstoppable killing thing that just kills people because, well, that's the plot. The whole thing about Predators were that they were hunters, going after worthy prey (so, no unarmed people, no pregnant women). The loosest that's ever been adhered to is probably (and predictably) AvP where they had no qualms about using innocent people as Alien incubators.

I must be misreading thiungs, surely, because you'd think Shane Black of all people would know better...

[surreal]

I cannot make head nor tail of what this film is about from the trailers.

Agreed, seems a real mess.  What I see is that with the talk of hybrids. the shot of the cowering (naked?) woman and the second predator at the end, it seems to be going in a worrying "hey, we made one, let them fight" kind of direction.

I just hope they keep the kid out of the way as much as possible.  Not that I'm likely to see this anyway and thus care little what they do, but I usually like Shane Black stuff so it will be a shame if this is as much of a mess as it looks.

[Default to the negative]

who are you to tell anyone that they're wrong for having an opinion about a film?

He didn't say that though, did he? You seem to be in love with this idea that you are the last man standing on the hill of free speech, surrounded by attackers who say you're 'not allowed' to prefer Alien 3.

[St_Eddie]

He didn't say that though, did he?

Pretty much...

..."Alien 3 is better than Aliens" is just silly...

You seem to be in love with this idea that you are the last man standing on the hill of free speech, surrounded by attackers who say you're 'not allowed' to prefer Alien 3.

Whatever, mate.  I'm just a bit sick of people not being accepting of differing opinions on film.

[Default to the negative]

There's an obvious difference between saying 'that opinion is silly' and saying 'you're not allowed to have that opinion.'

You're on some kind of victim complex trip here.

[saltysnacks]

No one has actually provided a counter arguement to St. Eddie, just regurgitation of the accepted viewpoint.

[St_Eddie]

There's an obvious difference between saying 'that opinion is silly' and saying 'you're not allowed to have that opinion.'

You're on some kind of victim complex trip here.

Okay, so it's not a case of saying 'people aren't allowed to hold a certain opinion on this film' but it is a case of saying 'people who hold this opinion on a film are wrong for doing so'.

Either way, it irks me.  Why not just accept that there are some people who prefer Alien 3 over Aliens and move on, without making a snide comment about how those who hold such an opinion are being "silly"?  Reply with a post about how you personally prefer Aliens to Alien 3 and give your reasons for doing so, by all means but don't belittle those of us who don't happen to share your opinion.

[bgmnts]

I think Aliens is way better than Alien3 but I am very very silly.

[St_Eddie]

I think Aliens is way better than Alien3 but I am very very silly.

Ah, but you're not silly because you hold that opinion, do you see?  You're silly for a myriad of other reasons.

[phantom_power]

It is Shane Black so I am happy to believe that it is just a shit trailer rather than any indication of the quality of the film. That doesn't bode well for the film's chances though

[AsparagusTrevor]

I saw Alien³ before Aliens, and prefer the former.  I also prefer the theatrical cut to the extended version, which feels incomplete with its more dodgy effects work, unfinished audio, and decision to retain the ox when it makes more sense for the dog-like Alien to have come from a dog.

I much prefer the extended version overall, but the ox-burster is the one thing I don't like.

The audio issues have been sorted for the blu-ray by the way, sounds much better.

[St_Eddie]

The audio issues have been sorted for the blu-ray by the way, sounds much better.

Indeed, they got the original actors back to re-record their dialogue.

[Default to the negative]

No one has actually provided a counter arguement to St. Eddie, just regurgitation of the accepted viewpoint.

Well I threw in my tuppence worth earlier on. I showed everyone my tuppence.

But to add to it: I think the core problem is that Alien 3 just isn't scary at all. You can praise the film for its nihilism, its bleakness, its art direction, its whatever else. But to focus on these elements is to ignore the fact that it is supposed to be a horror film, and that it completely fails in this department. The slender new design makes the xeno less physically intimidating than its predecessors and the CGI places it at a dramatic remove. It is a limp villain, lacking any kind of a 'presence'. Compounding the problem is the cast of charisma-free bland baldies who give us no reason to invest in them. Another convict gets bumped off in an unremarkable way – who cares? Do you? I doubt it. The marines in Aliens may have irritated people with their cartoonish personalities but at least they made an impression. Everyone remembers Vasquez' name, even though she's a minor character. Whereas hardly anyone can name the baldy boys in Alien 3.

People say the film is daring for killing off fan favourites, even though this was more of a practical decision than an artistic one. The truth is that there is nothing daring about the film at all. It's the rote slasher Ten Little Indians formula delivered with no zest or verve. It unfolds with a plodding inevitability which heralds the exhaustion and creative bankruptcy of the franchise. Can anyone honestly point to an exciting or scary moment in Alien 3? To watch the film is to settle into a bathtub of lukewarm mediocrity, letting the inoffensive boredom wash over you. It's not terrible, it's acceptable, it's 'okay'. But it's not good. And unlike the first two films it has no lasting cultural legacy. No setpieces or images or quotable lines to stick in the public consciousness. No innovative body horror to get under your skin. The only thing people remember about it is that it was crap.

[St_Eddie]

You see, I have no problem with you holding that opinion of Aliens in relation to Alien 3.  It's your subjective opinion and you're 100% entitled to it.

What I do have a problem with, is you using that opinion to attempt to invalidate differing opinions, which is preciously what you're doing.  You're expressing your opinion as though it were fact.  I would debate you with counter arguments but quite honestly, what's the point when you're being so dismissive and closed-minded towards anyone who doesn't share your own subjective viewpoint of preference in regards to a series of horror flicks?

Oh and for the record, the CGI of which you speak, isn't CGI.  It's a rod puppet with piss poor compositing.  There's exactly one CGI shot in the entirety of Alien 3 and it's the shot of the alien's head cracking at the very end of the film.

[Replies From View]

It's been a while since I last saw the extended version, but my memory is that the additional portion where the alien was locked up and then released subtracted from the film overall.  Also I prefer Ripley's descent into the molten medal in the original cut, with the alien bursting out of her on her way down.

[St_Eddie]

Once again, the thread about Predator has turned into a thread about Alien.  *shrugs shoulders*  What can you do?  Predator movies should just be more interesting, I guess.

It's been a while since I last saw the extended version, but my memory is that the additional portion where the alien was locked up and then released subtracted from the film overall.  Also I prefer Ripley's descent into the molten medal in the original cut, with the alien bursting out of her on her way down.

Personally, I think that the whole locking up and releasing of the alien addition in the assembly cut was quite possibly the greatest addition to the film.  I love it and in particular, Paul McGann's performance.

I also much prefer the alien not bursting out of Ripley's chest because otherwise, her sacrifice is a meaningless gesture.  By not having the alien burst out, it means that the company may actually have been able to save her life but she chose to sacrifice herself for the sake of humanity.  If the alien bursts out during her fall into the molten lava, then it's essentially a case of her sacrifice have no real significance because she was fucked either way and the alien was too (it would have burst on the platform and fallen into the lava, even if she'd accepted Weyland-Yutani's offer).

The assembly cut takes a film that I liked and turns it into a film that I love.

[Default to the negative]

What I do have a problem with, is you using that opinion to attempt to invalidate differing opinions, which is preciously what you're doing. You're expressing your opinion as though it were fact.

Well, that's the internet for you. Surely you are used to this by now.

Also, I think you are getting me mixed up with others, I haven't been shutting you down.

[Replies From View]

Oh and for the record, the CGI of which you speak, isn't CGI.  It's a rod puppet with piss poor compositing.  There's exactly one CGI shot in the entirety of Alien 3 and it's the shot of the alien's head cracking at the very end of the film.

The extended version uses CGI for the Ox-burster, I think.

[St_Eddie]

Well, that's the internet for you. Surely you are used to this by now.

Sadly, yes.  I am.  It doesn't mean that I have to like it though.

Also, I think you are getting me mixed up with others, I haven't been shutting you down.

"The only thing people remember about it is that it was crap" is a statement of fact, is it not?

[St_Eddie]

The extended version uses CGI for the Ox-burster, I think.

You're quite correct indeed.  There's one brief shot of the bambi-burster running down a corridor that was made especially for the assembly cut.  However, somehow I doubt that was what Default to the negative was referring to.

[Default to the negative]

"The only thing people remember about it is that it was crap" is a statement of fact, is it not?

It would be a chore if I were to begin every sentence with 'In my opinion...' You can take it for granted that it is just my opinion, and that I am well aware of it being just my opinion. I don't expect people to read my posts about Alien 3 and think, 'Well that's me told, now that Default brought some hard facts to the table.'

You're quite correct indeed.  There's one brief shot of the bambi-burster running down a corridor that was made especially for the assembly cut.  However, somehow I doubt that was what Default to the negative was referring to.

Meh, been a long time since I saw the film. It's not one of my favourites (obviously) and I don't revisit it. Still, I think my point stands. A poorly-composited shot has the same effect as shonky CGI: it robs the alien of its presence as a physical quantity in the film.

[Replies From View]

Personally, I think that the whole locking up and releasing of the alien addition in the assembly cut was quite possibly the greatest addition to the film.  I love it and in particular, Paul McGann's performance.

I also much prefer the alien not bursting out of Ripley's chest because otherwise, her sacrifice is a meaningless gesture.  By not having the alien burst out, it means that the company may actually have been able to save her life but she chose to sacrifice herself for the sake of humanity.  If the alien bursts out during her fall into the molten lava, then it's essentially a case of her sacrifice have no real significance because she was fucked either way and the alien was too (it would have burst on the platform and fallen into the lava, even if she'd accepted Weyland-Yutani's offer).

The assembly cut takes a film that I liked and turns it into a film that I love.

Interesting points; I should try to watch it again some time soon.  I don't have a Blu Ray player so it will have to be the one with the incomplete audio for me.  Does the Blu Ray version also make the final dive into the molten metal look more convincing?

[St_Eddie]

Meh, been a long time since I saw the film. It's not one of my favourites (obviously) and I don't revisit it. Still, I think my point stands. A poorly-composited shot has the same effect as shonky CGI: it robs the alien of its presence as a physical quantity in the film.

I was just pointing out your incorrect usage of the term 'CGI'.  However, I'm in full agreement that the end result is bad and it subtracts from the immersion of the film.  It's one of the elements of Alien 3 which is objectively bad, which is a shame because if it weren't for the awful compositing, the rod puppet work itself is astonishingly well done.

Does the Blu Ray version also make the final dive into the molten metal look more convincing?

It's been a long time since I last watched the DVD version of the assembly cut (because I've absolutely no reason to revisit it now that I own the Blu-Ray) but I'm inclined to say that that shot was indeed improved.

[Default to the negative]

By not having the alien burst out, it means that the company may actually have been able to save her life but she chose to sacrifice herself for the sake of humanity.

I've always struggled with the idea that the alien would be a desirable superweapon. This isn't just a problem with Alien 3, of course, it's in the other films and the comic books too. I just don't see why the xeno is supposed be such hot shit. You don't see anything like this in the real world: no one has tried to weaponise anopheles mosquitoes or African killer bees, for example.

The only potential benefit I can see is that you could wipe out a population while maintaining plausible deniability. 'It wasn't us, it was an alien outbreak.' I suppose that's one possible stratagem. But I don't think I've come across an alien story which uses that idea. It's usually just mad scientists saying, 'It's so elegant, don't you see? The perfect weapon of destruction. And we will harness this power!' Why not just use a nuke instead?

[St_Eddie]

I've always struggled with the idea that the alien would be a desirable superweapon. This isn't just a problem with Alien 3, of course, it's in the other films and the comic books too. I just don't see why the xeno is supposed be such hot shit. You don't see anything like this in the real world: no one has tried to weaponise anopheles mosquitoes or African killer bees, for example.

The only potential benefit I can see is that you could wipe out a population while maintaining plausible deniability. 'It wasn't us, it was an alien outbreak.' I suppose that's one possible stratagem. But I don't think I've come across an alien story which uses that idea. It's usually just mad scientists saying, 'It's so elegant, don't you see? The perfect weapon of destruction. And we will harness this power!' Why not just use a nuke instead?

I agree.  It's all a bit daft when you think about it.  I think that Alien 3 actually made the concept of the company wanting the alien both less believable but also simultaneously a bit more believable.

Less believable because in the first film, it's implied that the company had no idea what was at the end of the beacon, just that there was potentially an alien species and that it was of interest to someone at the company (I'd even venture to say that the company as a whole was unaware of the beacon but a few employees, acting upon their own initiative, saw an opportunity and took it.  Once contact with the Nostromo was lost, they would covered their tracks and deleted all records, in order to save their own arses).  As per Ridley Scott...

"I think any corporation that sends probes into unknown territory is going to think of the possibility of finding something new.  I'm sure that the crew members on all its ships would have been briefed to bring back anything of interest. It would be part of one's job to bring it back. An alien, of course, would be of top priority."

"This particular corporation didn't have a preconceived notion that an alien would be found on this mission, much less the particular Alien that is brought onto the ship. The idea of bringing it back alive would not have been on the minds of the corporate executives when they first received the alien transmission. They just had high expectations when they ordered the Nostromo to investigate – it was purely out of curiosity."

Likewise, it's never stated in Aliens that Burke was acting on company orders but it is implied that he was acting alone, as he too saw the potential to further his career and get rich.  Alien 3 is where it suddenly becomes about the company as a whole, absolutely, desperately wanting the alien for their bio-weapons division.  Which is problematic from a narrative point of view.

However, Alien 3 also makes this concept a bit more palatable because there was likely an element of truth to human-Bishop's speech at the end of the film, where he talks about the potentially endless possibilities and applications of the alien creature (I can't remember his speech offhand but he mentions vaccines as an example).  Of course, from the perspective of Weyland-Yutani, all of these possibilities would be in the interest of profit, as opposed to the furtherance of humanity but I thought that it opened up a few more avenues of interest for the company, beyond their bio-weapons division and as such, made the retcon of the company as a whole wanting the alien seem a bit more credible.

[colacentral]

Should've been they wanted them for an alien safari.

[Sgt. Duckie]

New redband trailer. They have done a better job with this trailer than what has been wheeled out so far imo. https://youtu.be/12-wsx1fjcg