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The Predator

Started by St_Eddie, May 10, 2018, 02:17:15 PM

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St_Eddie

#60
Quote from: Steven on May 14, 2018, 11:54:13 PM
That's corked.

No, no, thrice no. Alien 3 in no way can be held above Aliens by any rational person, except if they're desperately trying to seem Bohemian because Aliens is a big Hollywood Balls To Walls Vietnam Movie In Space Wurgh Letsaveit affair.

You're corked, my delirious friend.  I'm not being a Bohemian contrarian.  I genuinely do rate the assembly cut of Alien 3 higher than I do Aliens because you know, I prefer it.  It's time to pull out my old post on the matter...

Quote from: St_Eddie on November 25, 2016, 04:02:27 PM
People often bemoan the death of Newt and Hicks at the start of Alien 3.  What these people fail to understand is that their deaths were completely in keeping with the universe and tone established by first film.  Furthermore, the very nature of the story being told in Alien 3 really demands that those characters be killed off, for Alien 3 is a tale of redemption, sacrifice and faith. Thematically it deals heavily with life and death. The scene which shines this thematic beacon the brightest is the funeral speech by Dillon; dedicated to the aforementioned characters...

"Why are the innocent punished? Why the sacrifice? Why the pain? There aren't any promises. Nothing's certain. Only that some get called, some get saved. She won't ever know the hardship and grief for those of us left behind. We commit these bodies to the void... with a glad heart. For within each seed, there is the promise of a flower. And within each death, no matter how small, there's always a new life. A new beginning" - Dillon, Alien 3

Via a superb example of clever editing, during this speech the film cuts back and forth between the funeral itself and the birth of the alien from the ox (or dog, if you're watching the theatrical cut). It's worth noting the futile question of "why" at the beginning of the Dillon's speech, as this shows us that Alien 3 is a film reflective of real life. In real life, you can strive to save someone and still lose them. In real life, things rarely go the way we would like them to.  We often find ourselves asking why must terrible things happen, only to be answered with silence.  Real life has no morals or sense of justice and fairness. Only one thing is certain in real life; death and with each death, a new life.  Much like Ridley Scott's original 1979 masterpiece, Alien 3 is a relatively grounded science-fiction film; one viewed through the lens of relatable reality (or at least, it's as relatalbe as a film dealing with killer aliens in outer space could possibly be).

At the other end of he spectrum, we have James Cameron's Aliens, which is a blockbuster extravaganza. Arguably one of the finest action adventures ever committed to screen, no less.  In short; it's a classic of the genre which it primarily inhabits (which unlike Alien and Alien 3, is not horror). It shows Ripley tortured by the events of the first film and by the loss of her daughter (although only in the special edition, which incidentally is the superior version). It is however a 'popcorn munching' flick for the masses.  The protagonist's obstacles are set up at the beginning of the movie and then neatly resolved at the end; Ripley overcomes the loss of her daughter by saving Newt; she overcomes her fear of the xenomorph by facing her literal demon and blowing it out of an airlock. The ending of Aliens is in no way true to life, it is a pure happily-ever-after fantasy, tying everything up with a neat bow.

Alien 3 on the other hand, represents a harsh crash back down to reality (or in this case, a penal colony). It is a dark, gritty and thoughtful film, which mirrors our own lives by asking questions that can never be answered and shows a life where bad things can (and indeed do) happen to good people. The film is not entirely nihilistic however, as it also shows us that through redemption, hope and resilience will always spring eternal.

For all those people whom bemoan the narrative of Alien 3 and view it as a betrayal of James Cameron's Aliens; they should perhaps consider that if you were to take the first three Alien films and lay them out, it is in actuality the second film which stands out as the odd one out. In many ways, Aliens was a betrayal of the universe established in Alien and Alien 3 is the true spiritual followup to the original masterpiece.

Quote from: Steven on May 14, 2018, 11:54:13 PMRipley assuming a Jesus pose while high diving into a lake of lava while the Queen rips out of her? Mate.

Not in the assembly cut.  The queen doesn't burst out of Ripley in that version and as a result, her sacrifice actually means something.  She could have potentially lived long enough to have the creature surgically removed but she sacrificed her own life, for the greater good and the benefit of millions of innocent lives.

Quote from: Default to the negative on May 14, 2018, 11:39:03 PM


Here's that same scene, as seen in the assembly cut (the YouTuber has cut Dillion's speech out of it, which is why it feels a bit 'stop-start').

bgmnts

Aliens is the best. Sorry.

St_Eddie

Quote from: bgmnts on May 15, 2018, 12:34:30 AM
Aliens is the best. Sorry.

You know something, I think that you've talked me around to seeing how it is the better movie.  I think it's when you said that "Aliens is the best".  That argument really convinced me.


St_Eddie


Steven

Quote from: St_Eddie on May 15, 2018, 12:33:59 AM
You're corked, my delirious friend.  I'm not being a Bohemian contrarian.  I genuinely do rate the assembly cut of Alien 3 higher than I do Aliens because you know, I prefer it.  It's time to pull out my old post on the matter...

Well, you're already showing in that you're trying to be snobby and Bohemian.. you're not one of the 'popcorn munching masses':

Quote
It is however a 'popcorn munching' flick for the masses.  The protagonist's obstacles are set up at the beginning of the movie and then neatly resolved at the end; Ripley overcomes the loss of her daughter by saving Newt; she overcomes her fear of the xenomorph by facing her literal demon and blowing it out of an airlock. The ending of Aliens is in no way true to life, it is a pure happily-ever-after fantasy, tying everything up with a neat bow.

Yes, it's your typical American hopeful hero movie, but it's very entertaining and packs in a lot. Alien 3 has some interesting ideas, but is badly executed and has lots of dull as fuck about it. I saw the Assembly Cut last year and it still didn't make it anything approaching 'good'. There's some interesting religious themes explored, it would have made more sense set in a Monastary, but a lot of the characters are terribly realised and don't need to be there. Other than the Ripley sarcrificial bit the latter half of the movie is largely dogshit, just POV alien shots running around tunnels killing off bald blokes, snooze.

I can't help get the feeling if Alien 3 was the big success and Aliens a maligned disaster you contrarian sorts wouldn't be waxing lyrical over that instead? At least you're not bigging up Resurrection ffs.

St_Eddie

#66
Quote from: Steven on May 15, 2018, 12:59:11 AM
Well, you're already showing in that you're trying to be snobby and Bohemian.. you're not one of the 'popcorn munching masses'

Um, yes I am.  I mean, I don't eat popcorn or any food stuffs at the cinema because I don't want to bother other patrons with my munching sounds but I absolutely enjoy a good popcorn flick (Aliens included).  My point was that I prefer Alien 3, in part because it's feels closer in spirit and tone, to Alien (which was itself a film and not a movie).  Aliens is pure entertainment and it excels at that.

Most people who are only casually into the Alien series and not a part of the niche horror crowd, will cite that they love Aliens and the other movies (Alien included); not so much.  Hence, my comment about it being geared towards the popcorn munching masses.  There's nothing inherently wrong with Aliens being a popcorn movie and as great as the movie is, it's just not the direction that I personally would have cared to see the series take.  Having said that, I'm very glad that it exists.  How does that make me a snob?

Quote from: Steven on May 15, 2018, 12:59:11 AMYes, it's your typical American hopeful hero movie, but it's very entertaining and packs in a lot.

Please point me to where I said otherwise.  I'll reiterate; I like Aliens, plenty.  It's one of the greatest popcorn movies ever made.  I just prefer Alien 3 because it feels like the true spiritual sequel to the original Alien.

Quote from: Steven on May 15, 2018, 12:59:11 AMI can't help get the feeling if Alien 3 was the big success and Aliens a maligned disaster you contrarian sorts wouldn't be waxing lyrical over that instead? At least you're not bigging up Resurrection ffs.

Not only are you wrong but quite frankly, you're being out of order.  All joking and joshing aside, I can respect that you and others prefer Aliens to Alien 3.  How about making that a two-way thing?

Quote from: Steven on May 15, 2018, 12:08:50 AM
A lot of the characters are just a mess and easily dispensible.

I'll cop to this being a valid criticism.  There's a lot of disposable and indistinguishable skinheads in Alien 3.  However, there's a greater number of interesting and memorable characters than a lot of people give the movie credit for; Ripley, Andrews (peak Brian Glover), Dillon (the heart of the film), Clemens (though admittedly he dies far too early in the film and is sorely missed during the second half), Aaron ("85"), Golic (arguably, the greatest addition to the assembly cut is his expanded role) and Bishop/his creator.  Besides, it's not as though a fair few of the marines in Aliens weren't easily dispensable.

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: bgmnts on May 14, 2018, 10:41:57 PM
Aliens>Predator>Alien>Predator 2.

Ranking 80s sci fi films is my specialty!

Does Aliens have Harry Dean Stanton in it? No. That's why it's not as good.

St_Eddie

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on May 15, 2018, 01:20:54 AM
Does Aliens have Harry Dean Stanton in it? No. That's why it's not as good.

That's a fair point.

bgmnts

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on May 15, 2018, 01:20:54 AM
Does Aliens have Harry Dean Stanton in it? No. That's why it's not as good.

Pretty in Pink > Predator> Aliens

St_Eddie

Quote from: bgmnts on May 15, 2018, 01:50:00 AM
Pretty in Pink > Predator> Aliens

I can't agree with you there.  Pretty in Pink is the pink sheep of the Alien and Predator movies.  It had its moments, I suppose but it seemed like an odd direction to take the series in.  Still, it was nice to see a prequel about Brett's life, pre-Nostromo.

Dex Sawash

Aliens is shit. Alien 3 is not terrible. Watched all the Alien things in one shitty norovirus go on a sick day 2 months back.

idunnosomename

Aliens has the same storyline as Alien

Wake up on a ship, introduce characters with casual dialogue that contrasts with what will come later
Go out and explore alien ship, get a facehugger, bring them back (director's cut anyway)
Big chestburster moment as if we havent seen it before
I dunno some other stuff happens including an android vomiting milk
Ripley puts on a special suit to confront the monster
Blows it out the airlock with an awkward special effect

(C) mike stoklaalzazs of red letter media. I cant remember where.

phantom_power

The alien films have no choppers or people being ordered to get to one so therefore the Predator series wins. I am surprised no-one else has noticed this

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: bgmnts on May 15, 2018, 01:50:00 AM
Pretty in Pink > Predator> Aliens

Yes but it's not as good as Paris, Texas or Repo Man.

St_Eddie

Quote from: idunnosomename on May 15, 2018, 08:06:33 AM
(C) mike stoklaalzazs of red letter media.

Oh please, us Alien fans have made this observation for decades now.  It's true enough but it's also grossly oversimplifying things.  Aliens doesn't actually feel like a retread of Alien, despite the structural similarities, which is key to its success as a movie.

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on May 15, 2018, 08:39:23 AM
Yes but it's not as good as Paris, Texas or Repo Man.

Seems a bit odd to lump a city and a state into your film comparisons.

idunnosomename

Dont worry I love Aliens it's great

Alien 3 isn't good

Alien Resurrection is really, really, really, really bad. The Alien vs Predators are stupid shit for babies.

Aliens and Predator seem like such rich franchises to explore, but basically they don't really hold up when you move beyond Ripley and Dutch.

saltysnacks

One thing that is undeniable, is that the Alien franchise is superior to the Predator franchise.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

I am the world's leading expert on the Alien films (I won a quiz about them) and I say that Aliens is better than either cut of Alien 3.

St_Eddie

Quote from: idunnosomename on May 15, 2018, 09:08:35 AM
Alien 3 isn't good

I don't agree.

Quote from: idunnosomename on May 15, 2018, 09:08:35 AMAlien Resurrection is really, really, really, really bad. The Alien vs Predators are stupid shit for babies.

I agree with every fibre of my being.

Norton Canes

1,3,2









4









Any other shit that's gone out under the 'Alien' banner

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: saltysnacks on May 15, 2018, 09:29:07 AM
One thing that is undeniable, is that the Alien franchise is superior to the Predator franchise.

Another thing that's undeniable is that when you're calling a series of films a 'franchise' or possibly worse, 'ip' then they've long been sapped of any artistic merit and have started churning out sfc.

St_Eddie

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on May 15, 2018, 10:14:31 AM
Another thing that's undeniable is that when you're calling a series of films a 'franchise' or possibly worse, 'ip' then they've long been sapped of any artistic merit and have started churning out sfc.

Absolutely.  I purposefully avoid using the term 'franchise' for any film series that I'm not being outright dismissive of.  It's such a dirty word with insidious corporate connotations.

Also...

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on May 15, 2018, 10:14:31 AM
...started churning out sfc.

"sfc"?

Dr Syntax Head


phantom_power

Resurrection has some really good bits in and the bones of a good film in there. It is just covered in the skin of a terrible hacky pile of shite

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: phantom_power on May 15, 2018, 11:19:27 AM
Resurrection has some really good bits in and the bones of a good film in there. It is just covered in the skin of a terrible hacky pile of shite

The bit with the robot guns pinging off the pipe is good.

Steven

Quote from: St_Eddie on May 15, 2018, 10:38:29 AM
"sfc"?

Shit4Cunts.

Quote from: St_Eddie on May 15, 2018, 01:13:19 AM
Um, yes I am.  I mean, I don't eat popcorn or any food stuffs at the cinema because I don't want to bother other patrons with my munching sounds but I absolutely enjoy a good popcorn flick (Aliens included).  My point was that I prefer Alien 3, in part because it's feels closer in spirit and tone, to Alien (which was itself a film and not a movie).  Aliens is pure entertainment and it excels at that.

Except you were approaching it from the point of a snob, you said Aliens was a 'popcorn munching flick for the masses' in a condescending tone and since conflicts are resolved by the end it is also baby-ish simplistic fairtytale film for kids and morons?

QuoteMost people who are only casually into the Alien series and not a part of the niche horror crowd, will cite that they love Aliens and the other movies (Alien included); not so much.  Hence, my comment about it being geared towards the popcorn munching masses.  There's nothing inherently wrong with Aliens being a popcorn movie and as great as the movie is, it's just not the direction that I personally would have cared to see the series take.  Having said that, I'm very glad that it exists.  How does that make me a snob?

Because the tone of your comments belie that you look down on it. Why must a sequel follow in spirit and tone, the story is very much almost a re-tread so the only thing driving the entire movie is the massive shift in aggression and adrenaline pushing the whole thing along.

QuoteNot only are you wrong but quite frankly, you're being out of order.  All joking and joshing aside, I can respect that you and others prefer Aliens to Alien 3.  How about making that a two-way thing?

It's not either/or. I'm just a bit perplexed why a film that sets out and succeeds in exactly what it's trying to do like Aliens has Alien 3 being lauded over it, a film that was a complete mess from the initial production - doesn't realise most of the concepts they were trying to get across in the early drafts and had to be re-edited a fuckload to even get approaching anything watchable out of it. Yet this is more entertaining to some people? I don't buy it other than some kind of snobby 'being entertaining is for mouth-breathers', and Alien 3 is better because it's slow, meandering and 'problematic'.

QuoteI'll cop to this being a valid criticism.  There's a lot of disposable and indistinguishable skinheads in Alien 3.  However, there's a greater number of interesting and memorable characters than a lot of people give the movie credit for; Ripley, Andrews (peak Brian Glover)

Tetley Tea Gaffer is peak Brian Glover!

QuoteDillon (the heart of the film), Clemens (though admittedly he dies far too early in the film and is sorely missed during the second half), Aaron ("85"), Golic (arguably, the greatest addition to the assembly cut is his expanded role) and Bishop/his creator.  Besides, it's not as though a fair few of the marines in Aliens weren't easily dispensable.

They're obviously written that way though, how can you have any sense of dread unless a load of top-flight heavily-armed marines aren't murdered to fuck in seconds by the unknown quantity of xenomorphs after ridiculing Ripley and her 'bug hunt'? Not to mention Cameron put it together with a budget of $18.5 million, Alien 3 cost a staggering $50 million and doesn't come close to ramping up the tension anything close to the many moments in Aliens. Yes, it's probably closer in tone and clausterphobia to the first film, but the actual menace of the alien and any attachment to the characters is almost zero, even Bishop is a much more well realised character than most of the shite in Alien 3. At least in Aliens you felt there was some trepidation and conflict between the humans and their alien foe, the alien in Alien 3 just seems piss poor, not scary in the least and by the time we're treated to a load of confusing shots of it picking off people one-by-one with POV chase shots down long tunnels it's become your basic boring monster movie fare. There are many iconic lines and scenes in Aliens we can all spit out, there's virtually nothing like this in Alien 3, maybe the Alas Smith & Jones moment between Ripley and the xenomorph? If you asked most people could they remember a single memorable line from Alien 3? It's just a very flawed film that even Fincher himself hates and yes there are some interesting bits and pieces and ideas there, but I just find it a bit baffling people are going to hold it aloft above Cameron's Aliens which successfully sets out and does exactly what it was trying to do, as if that's somewhow more plaebian.

biggytitbo

Alien Isolation is the best Alien film. AHHHHHH.

bgmnts

Quote from: biggytitbo on May 15, 2018, 11:51:14 AM
Alien Isolation is the best Alien film. AHHHHHH.

Loved it when I played it last year.

Accidentally bought the season pass yesterday. I have a season pass for a game I don't have.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

Quote from: Steven on May 15, 2018, 11:48:57 AM
If you asked most people could they remember a single memorable line from Alien 3?
"FUCK!"