Michael Palin in North Korea

[Crabwalk]

Looking forward to catching up with this.

But if you want to know what life is really like for North Koreans,  you have to talk to those that have defected really. I read 'Nothing to Envy: Real Lives in North Korea' by Barbera Demick recently and it's an astonishing book - though mainly focused on peoples' experiences in the late 20th Century. Nothing to romanticise from that era, that's for sure.

[Crisps?]

Anyone who'd visit a country with a diabolical human rights record like China, or a country that sells arms to Saudi Arabia, should have no problem visiting North Korea on 'moral' grounds.

But if you want to know what life is really like for North Koreans,  you have to talk to those that have defected really.

If you want to know what life is like in a country, you have to ask people who live there, not people with a gigantic and obvious motivation to lie about it.

[bgmnts]

Anyone who'd visit a country with a diabolical human rights record like China, or a country that sells arms to Saudi Arabia, should have no problem visiting North Korea on 'moral' grounds.

If you want to know what life is like in a country, you have to ask people who live there, not people with a gigantic and obvious motivation to lie about it.

Conversely, people who have more freedom to talk about it without repercussions.

[Crabwalk]

If you want to know what life is like in a country, you have to ask people who live there, not people with a gigantic and obvious motivation to lie about it.

Sorry, who do you think has the more 'gigantic and obvious motivation' to lie about life in North Korea: those inside or those that have left? Heard many dissenting voices coming from the people living in DPRK have you? Think Michael Palin, or anyone, can just rock up some random town and start having nice, unguarded chats?

[Crisps?]

Sorry, who do you think has the more 'gigantic and obvious motivation' to lie about life in North Korea: those inside or those that have left?

The ones that have left. Would you trust an American who defected to North Korea to be honest and impartial?

Defectors are obviously motivated to lie about and discredit regimes they oppose. It's obviously also in their interest to say what their new host country wants to hear, with the juicier the stories the more valuable they become. Nobody is interested in someone who says "Well they didn't like me, so I left, but I don't know what else they did".

Heard many dissenting voices coming from the people living in DPRK have you? Think Michael Palin, or anyone, can just rock up some random town and start having nice, unguarded chats?

Criticising the government? Unlikely with government minders around, as shown in this programme and what we already know about all authoritarian states. That doesn't make what defectors have to say about states they oppose, from within states that want to promote the worst stories possible, any more worthy of automatic acceptance.

[JesusAndYourBush]

I read 'Nothing to Envy: Real Lives in North Korea' by Barbera Demick recently and it's an astonishing book - though mainly focused on peoples' experiences in the late 20th Century. Nothing to romanticise from that era, that's for sure.

I read it a couple of years ago.  Well worth a read if anyone wants to know more about life in North Korea.

I kindof wish that Palin hadn't bothered asking any of the awkward questions.  He knew he wasn't going to get an honest answer so what was the point?  It'd have been better if he hadn't, then his relationship with the guards would have been friendlier* and they might have dropped their guard and given us some small nugget of information voluntarily which would have been worth more than the answers we didn't get. (*I mean, he got on well with the female guide but then kept spoiling it whenever he asked something a bit awkward.)

Oh, remember when Dennis Rodman was buddying up to Kim Jong Un regularly?  I wonder what happened with that.  It just stopped as suddenly as it began.  Do you reckon he got warned off?  Something like "At worst you're going to cause an international incident, at best you're going to get yourself killed, just stop it!"

[popcorn]

The knowledge we have about life in North Korea is corroborated from a wealth of information based on spying and other intelligence, interviews with thousands and thousands of North Korean escapees, including high ranking defectors, etc. We have more than enough information to be confident that it is not such a peachy keen place to live. No one tries to defect to North Korea.

[Brundle-Fly]

I wonder what the editorial process was on this? Did they demand to see all the footage before Palin and the crew left?  Obviously, the V/O's were added when they came back home where he made his most critical comments. All his talking to camera in the hotel room was always in hushed tones as if there was somebody in the next room with a glass and ear against the wall.

Really enjoyed it, those rocky waterfalls were heaven.

[jobotic]

The knowledge we have about life in North Korea is corroborated from a wealth of information based on spying and other intelligence, interviews with thousands and thousands of North Korean escapees, including high ranking defectors, etc. We have more than enough information to be confident that it is not such a peachy keen place to live. No one tries to defect to North Korea.

Only because of Western lies putting us off. I reckon if we knew the truth we'd be there like a shot!

[Alberon]

The story of one of a handful of American soldiers who defected to North Korea.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/charles-robert-jenkins-dead-us-soldier-defector-north-korea-life-story-communism-propaganda-films-a8106171.html

[Sin Agog]

The first bass guitarist for the amazing Velvet Underground-influenced Japanese noiseniks, Les Rallizes Denudes, hijacked a passenger plane and flew it out to North Korea.  Kind of a bummer if you happened to be on that flight, though, as you then had to spend the rest of your life in N.K. no matter what.

[Benevolent Despot]

So because in great Great Britain you can be rude about anything, unlike those North Korean local authorities that banned Life of Brian, we didn't hear from So Yang about her life or hopes or ambitions or favourite places in her country or thoughts on reunification, because they had to shoehorn in yet more boring discussion about the leadership, even if that meant consigning her to a salt mine.

I realise you're too far gone, or never all there in the first place, but still, for the others, this is the level of your wrongness:

(by lying refugee Yeonmi from her book In Order to Live) (highly recommended)

I don't know if the other defectors had the same problems, but for me the most difficult part of the program was learning to introduce myself in class. Almost nobody knew how to do this, so the teachers taught us that the first thing you say is your name, age, and hometown. Then you can tell people about your hobbies, your favorite recording artist or movie star, and finally you can talk about "what you want to be in the future." When I was called on, I froze. I had no idea what a "hobby" was. When it was explained that it was something I did that made me happy, I couldn't conceive of such a thing. My only goal was supposed to be making the regime happy. And why would anyone care about what "I" wanted to be when I grew up? There was no "I" in North Korea—only "we." This whole exercise made me uncomfortable and upset.

When the teacher saw this, she said, "If that's too hard, then tell us your favorite color." Again, I went blank.

In North Korea, we are usually taught to memorize everything, and most of the time there is only one correct answer to each question. So when the teacher asked for my favorite color, I thought hard to come up with the "right" answer. I had never been taught to use the "critical thinking" part of my brain, the part that makes reasoned judgments about why one thing seems better than another.

The teacher told me, "This isn't so hard. I'll go first: My favorite color is pink. Now what's yours?"

"Pink!" I said, relieved that I was finally given the right answer.

In South Korea, I learned to hate the question "What do you think?" Who cared what I thought? It took me a long time to start thinking for myself and to understand why my own opinions mattered. But after five years of practicing being free, I know now that my favorite color is spring green and my hobby is reading books and watching documentaries. I'm not copying other people's answers anymore.

Park, Yeonmi. In Order To Live: A North Korean Girl's Journey to Freedom (pp. 216-217). Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition.

That pasted, I guess the guides are some of the most privileged citizens in the country, so they'll be afforded a little bit more freedom.

Yeah Palin doc was quite good. I'd love to see Jonathan Meades do an architecture doc from there. Probably too obvious for him though.

[Crisps?]

The knowledge we have about life in North Korea is corroborated from a wealth of information based on spying and other intelligence

Oh well, if the CIA says something's true it must be true then.

The story of one of a handful of American soldiers who defected to North Korea.

A prime example of the transparent bullshit. He was given a house, became a movie star, had a Japanese wife 19 years younger than him and received potentially life saving operations, yet after he left North Korea and needed the US regime to not execute him, this became living a dog's life, tortured, with nothing to eat (except during the 1990s famine), no water or electricity and shallow mass graves next door.

Jenkins found fame in North Korea as Dr Kelton, the pantomime villain who like all warmonger Capitalists was determined to keep the Korean War going to boost the profits of US arms manufacturers.

I love how they write this as if that isn't actually the case (about all wars), and just mad North Korean propaganda.

[Crisps?]

Park Yeonmi: I had never been taught to use the "critical thinking" part of my brain

Were you brought up in North Korea, BD, because I'd certainly accept that as evidence they suppress all forms of critical thinking.

What you quoted is so ridiculous I'm genuinely not even 100% certain you didn't post it as a joke to highlight just how extreme and delusional the propaganda can be about North Korea.

That pasted, I guess the guides are some of the most privileged citizens in the country, so they'll be afforded a little bit more freedom.

Yes, the only sane explanation for why this programme contradicts the nonsense you quoted is that tourist guides are part of a special elite who get to have hobbies and a favourite colour.

Park Yeonmi, OTOH, is from such a wealthy and politically connected family she is known as the Paris Hilton of North Korea. (You could not make this up.)

she expected to study medicine at university and marry a man of the same ilk or higher

Yet in your quote "she" [whoever wrote it for her] says she wasn't even allowed to have a favourite colour.

She described her father to us as 'a very free man' who was critical of the regime [...] Other North Korean defectors from [the same city] have also told me that after the great famine in the mid nineties, there was growing dissent, albeit, quiet and kept within immediate families".

Yet in your quote "she" says nobody is allowed to think.

[I had] so much fun playing with my friends, like to go hiking, to the riverside, swimming.

Yet in your quote "she" says she didn't even know what a hobby is.

This could go on, but as this is a TV thread and not about false propaganda, more about Park Yeonmi (and her connections to far-right libertarians) and other lying North Korean defectors here:

https://thediplomat.com/2014/12/the-strange-tale-of-yeonmi-park/ (where the above quotes are from)

https://thediplomat.com/2014/10/north-korea-defectors-and-their-skeptics/

[the science eel]

A prime example of the transparent bullshit. He was given a house, became a movie star, had a Japanese wife 19 years younger than him and received potentially life saving operations, yet after he left North Korea and needed the US regime to not execute him, this became living a dog's life, tortured, with nothing to eat (except during the 1990s famine), no water or electricity and shallow mass graves next door.

I don't follow - this was his life in the US after defection?

[MojoJojo]

Crisps? is arguing that he changed his tune after he returned. He doesn't seem to have realised that "being a movie star, Japanese wife" etc... doesn't contradict the tortured, no food stuff.

[the science eel]

Yes, of course.

[jobotic]

Japanese wives 19 years younger than you are plentiful!

[Crisps?]

Crisps? is arguing that he changed his tune after he returned. He doesn't seem to have realised that "being a movie star, Japanese wife" etc... doesn't contradict the tortured, no food stuff.

I do realise, however, that the house, movie star, Japanese wife stuff is provable fact, whereas the torture stuff is merely unsubstantiated claims from a liar:

• As millions of North Koreans starved to death in the famine of the 1990s, the Jenkins family received rations of rice, soap and clothing.
• "In North Korea, I lived a dog's life [...] Nothing to eat."

[MojoJojo]

Mate, you're being a bit mental. He obviously didn't mean he literally had no food to eat for 39 years, and you cannot possibly think that is what he meant.

[Crisps?]

Did I say he literally didn't have any food for 39 years? What the fuck are you even on about?

[Dex Sawash]

Has no one considered the consent of the "given" wife?


Edit- sorry the "given" was a propaganada driven construct of my own

[MojoJojo]

Did I say he literally didn't have any food for 39 years? What the fuck are you even on about?

You gave this as demonstrating he lied:

As millions of North Koreans starved to death in the famine of the 1990s, the Jenkins family received rations of rice, soap and clothing.
"In North Korea, I lived a dog's life [...] Nothing to eat."

Which it doesn't, unless you think he literally meant he had nothing to eat the entire time he was there.

[Crisps?]

Or it could mean that the facts are that he had food (and soap and clothing) even during a mass famine (anything but a dog's life, relatively speaking), so it's extremely unlikely that he had "nothing to eat" in times of no famine, and there is no evidence that I'm aware of to support his claim that he ever had "nothing to eat".

You seem to know better though, so let's hear it.

[monolith]

'Fuck the queen and Theresa May can tickle my balls.'

If I were to say the equivalent about North Korean leaders/regime whilst in North Korea I would not be having a good time right now.

But yeah, we're basically the same and anyone who doesn't see it just can't see the truth, maaan.

[popcorn]

A dildo in Thatcher's dead arse.

[gilbertharding]

So, is 'nothing to eat' a lie, or a figure of speech? Is that what you're arguing about?

Fucking hell.

[MojoJojo]

Or it could mean that the facts are that he had food (and soap and clothing) even during a mass famine (anything but a dog's life, relatively speaking), so it's extremely unlikely that he had "nothing to eat" in times of no famine, and there is no evidence that I'm aware of to support his claim that he ever had "nothing to eat".

You seem to know better though, so let's hear it.

If you're interpreting:

"In North Korea, I lived a dog's life [...] Nothing to eat."

literally, then yes, he is must be a liar, since he was there for 39 years.

Except he didn't actually say that he had nothing to eat as you snipped a bit out. What the actual quote is:

"In North Korea, I lived a dog's life," Jenkins told the LA Times. "Ain't nobody live good in North Korea. Nothing to eat. No running water. No electricity. In the wintertime you freeze — in my bedroom, the walls were covered in ice."

so he wasn't even talking about himself when he said "Nothing to eat".

[edit]gilbert - yeah...[/edit]

[Sin Agog]

People can't just magically turn into dogs in Korea.  And if you could just magically turn into a dog, why would you choose to do so in Korea of all places?!

[Benevolent Despot]

Crisps, I don't think I've called anyone this in my 14 years here, but you're a loony. I think you are for real as well, there used to be a pretend DPRK advocate here but he wrote in such a way that gave away his high intelligence level. You don't.

What you quoted is so ridiculous I'm genuinely not even 100% certain you didn't post it as a joke to highlight just how extreme and delusional the propaganda can be about North Korea.

Try the book! If you are of the unfounded opinion that it is propaganda then you will be impressed by its breadth, depth and creativity.

Yes, the only sane explanation for why this programme contradicts the nonsense you quoted is that tourist guides are part of a special elite who get to have hobbies and a favourite colour.

It's not that you are denied a favourite colour, it's that you are drilled from birth that the individual does not exist. A lack of favourites naturally follows.

Park Yeonmi, OTOH, is from such a wealthy and politically connected family she is known as the Paris Hilton of North Korea. (You could not make this up.)

No, her mother is known by her daughter as the Paris Hilton of DPRK, because she got knock-off designer bags imported from China on the black market. Why are you taking this ignorant article at face-value and not a 250-page testimony?

Yet in your quote "she" [whoever wrote it for her] says she wasn't even allowed to have a favourite colour.

Your job and caste are chosen for you. She was a middle-class North Korean which meant she had meat twice a month, clean clothes and enough rice and veg to not starve. This was until her father got caught smuggling metals so they could have food and clothes. He was sentenced to 10 years hard labour and died of cancer brought about by the conditions in the camp. Then they starved. I wonder if she faked her stunted growth as well?

Yet in your quote "she" says nobody is allowed to think.

Thinking is very rare. You're not allowed to voice your opinions.

This could go on, but as this is a TV thread and not about false propaganda, more about Park Yeonmi (and her connections to far-right libertarians) and other lying North Korean defectors here:

https://thediplomat.com/2014/12/the-strange-tale-of-yeonmi-park/ (where the above quotes are from)

https://thediplomat.com/2014/10/north-korea-defectors-and-their-skeptics/

LOL. Freedom is evil, we get it.

Her book was written after those articles. Some of the inconsistencies stem from the face that she tried to cover up the fact that she and her mother were trafficked in China and sold as wives, raped, and lived as the property of various thugs for two years. The North Korean government also planted false stories about her after she began making speeches. The ignorant, wishfully-minded, moral-free, anti-US people will throw anyone under the bus to cast some doubt on defector's stories to score a political point. It's a good job no-one takes you seriously.

What hypothetical thing could possibly convince you that life in North Korea is rather bad?