Author Topic: Better Call Saul - Season 4  (Read 17861 times)

Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #450 on: October 11, 2018, 05:33:54 PM »
No. No he isn't.

Breaking Bad is about a high school teacher who becomes a meth dealing druglord who battles gangsters and neo-nazis.

Better Call Saul is about a lawyer who remains a lawyer who battles his lawyer brother.

I mean when you put it like that it makes Breaking Bad sound like the biggest nonsense piece of B-movie shit ever, but whatever floats your boat.

BritishHobo

  • That is a really reductive impression
Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #451 on: October 11, 2018, 07:29:23 PM »
You folk complaining that BCS is "treading water" or whatever and hoping that the next season picks up, what are you expecting to see? I don't actually understand what you are complaining about, especially after 5 seasons of the show running at the same clip. It's not an action based show, it's decidedly slower than Breaking Bad. What do you want to happen that picks up the pace?
I think it is a better show than BB, which I like generally but feel it's very overrated in general and seriously tailed off towards the end, season 5 in particular. BCS has maintained a consistent high quality level the whole time while moving at a lovely glacial pace.

My only real complaint is that it gave any screen time to those fucking twins from BB, who stick out like a sore thumb even more noticably in BCS. Absolute garbage characters.

That's what frustrates me. Saying something is slow makes it sound like you need robots or explosions, but that's not true or fair. I've no problem with films or TV that are slow, or even go nowhere. This just feels like it's treading water while making out it's going somewhere.

I don't want action. There's different levels of slow. My problem with Better Call Saul is we've gone three seasons past that moment where Saul turns down the job at the end of season one, and yet it doesn't feel like we've gotten any further than that moment. It feels like they're constantly lengthening the road. Breaking Bad wasn't great because of action, it was great because it took the characters on a really well-developed journey in five seasons, and that just seems to be missing here for me.

BritishHobo

  • That is a really reductive impression
Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #452 on: October 11, 2018, 07:36:31 PM »
A good reverse example is that The Walking Dead is packed full of action and yet it's far and away the most arse-clenchingly slow show on television, to the extent that most of its fans are still waiting nine seasons in for something to fuckin happen. More happens in a page of Beckett than an entire season of The Walking Dead. It's not to do with the action or the dramatics, it's how the specific events and character developments are dragged to dead-snail's pace without enough behind to make the pace worthwhile.

Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #453 on: October 11, 2018, 09:34:26 PM »
You folk complaining that BCS is "treading water" or whatever and hoping that the next season picks up, what are you expecting to see? I don't actually understand what you are complaining about, especially after 5 seasons of the show running at the same clip. It's not an action based show, it's decidedly slower than Breaking Bad. What do you want to happen that picks up the pace?
I think it is a better show than BB, which I like generally but feel it's very overrated in general and seriously tailed off towards the end, season 5 in particular. BCS has maintained a consistent high quality level the whole time while moving at a lovely glacial pace.

My only real complaint is that it gave any screen time to those fucking twins from BB, who stick out like a sore thumb even more noticably in BCS. Absolute garbage characters.
4 seasons!!!!!!

Old Nehamkin

  • Dance, Jimmy!
Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #454 on: October 11, 2018, 10:54:49 PM »
Breaking Bad was quite slow-paced, on the whole. There were cathartic bursts of action now and then, but mostly it was a very deliberate, suspenseful show that always put its characters first. In style and sensibility I'd say it sat somewhere between the Coen Brothers, Sergio Leone and Hitchcock.

I think there's sometimes a certain level of revisionism when people now compare it to BCS, as if the former was some shallow, balls-to-the-wall action show compared to the Classy Character Drama of the latter. Personally,  I don't see a massive difference in tone between the two shows; both of them are very thorough character studies that skirt the line between black comedy and tragedy against a backdrop of pulpy, semi-operatic crime drama. Better Call Saul is a little slower, but not quite as much as people make out. Breaking Bad, for me, was more assured and cohesive.

I enjoyed the last episode very much. Lalo has very quickly earned his stripes as an interesting,  charismatic villain and I'm sure he'll be a fun adversary for Mike in the season to come. I do hope they find a meaningful way to connect Mike's storyline with Jimmy's, though, as the isolation of their plot threads is starting to make the show feel a bit schizophrenic.

billyandthecloneasaurus

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Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #455 on: October 11, 2018, 11:18:35 PM »
I've loved BCS from the start, except the plot at the end of....season 1 or season 2?  Where Jimmy goes to that funeral and then has one last shot at being a a naughty man and steals a watch or something.  Yeah, my memory is quite hazy.  Thought that was shit.  Everything else has been amazing.  I love the pace of it.  I also like the way stuff like, DOESN'T progress sometimes, but then sometimes it does, the brief moments of acceleration then 5 episodes where fuck all happens, GREAT.  I could watch hours of that shit.

Mike is amazing, possibly my favourite character in any television show I've ever seen. 

I don't want to be too cunty to the naysayers so all I'll say is that, in my own stupid ass opinion, it's less that your criticisms are objective flaws with the show but more that subjectively it just ain't for you.  Like, I know it doesn't count for much, but a lot of things y'all are saying are BAD about the show, are what I like about the show.

Similarly a lot of the things inherent to the show that are used as examples for it being worse than Breaking Bad are the reasons I prefer it to Breaking Bad, lolz.

Also I definitely 100% care more about Saul and Mike then I ever did about Walt and his fam. 

Ja'moke

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Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #456 on: October 11, 2018, 11:54:15 PM »
Better Call Saul and Breaking Bad are both great shows in their own ways. Stop making them fight!

I prefer Breaking Bad overall because I found the story more engaging, and it created tension quite unlike any other show. 'Ozymandias' remains an absolute belter of an episode in terms of ratcheting up the tension and horror.

BCS is a different kind of show, more of a slower, character study. There are parts I think are too slow, as I've previously mentioned, the lab plot felt unnecessary to me, at least spending so much time on it. But the Jimmy and Kim stuff is endlessly fascinating.

But overall, both top notch tele.

Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #457 on: October 12, 2018, 01:16:43 AM »
Underwhelmed by the last episode, mainly because characters were behaving in ways that weren't credible but were required by the plot.  For instance, how could Werner have been so stupid as to think that his absconding - for four days! - could have worked?  (For that matter why did Mike allow them out to the strip club?  Couldn't the girls have been brought to them?  I thought the secrecy of the work went as far as not even letting the men know which state they were in.) 

And why did Howard allow Jimmy to sit on that panel awarding scholarships?

And the final scene would have been a great Diane-Keaton-at-the-end-of-The-Godfather moment, except Kim's naivety was even less plausible than Kay Corleone's.  Right at the start of the episode she'd been party to Jimmy's fake weeping at the graveside, and then there's the small matter of her having known the guy and his talent for duplicity for ten years.

Ja'moke

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Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #458 on: October 12, 2018, 01:53:10 AM »
Werner was always foolish. Talking to those guys in the pub about his plans a few episodes ago. And Mike probably thought bringing a bunch of strippers to their secret location wasn’t a good idea, firstly, what would Gus think? Secondly, the strippers would probably be suspicious of being blindfolded and shoved into a blacked out van while they’re driven into the desert. And they might talk afterwards.

Howard has always had a soft spot for Jimmy and always tries to include him. Even more so since Chuck died, maybe out of guilt.

Kim WANTS to believe Jimmy. Against her better judgement. That’s what makes their relationship so interesting. She knows he loves a con, and so does she, it’s thrilling, but she can let it go, it doesn’t consume her. She wants to think Jimmy is the same. That he only does these cons out of necessity and that there is still real emotion in there somewhere. She let herself believe at the end.

mothman

  • I don't know why
Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #459 on: October 12, 2018, 07:28:45 AM »
Yes. Kim saw what she wanted to see. It’s always bothered her how unaffected he was by Chuck’s death. When really it kinda shows how little she understands their history, that she expects him to conform to some idealised grieving process. One could even go so far as to say she may have viewed his being forced to confront Chuck’s death, and (she hoped) deal with it, as a fringe benefit of using said death to sway the appeals board.

NoSleep

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Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #460 on: October 12, 2018, 07:38:20 AM »
And the final scene would have been a great Diane-Keaton-at-the-end-of-The-Godfather moment, except Kim's naivety was even less plausible than Kay Corleone's.  Right at the start of the episode she'd been party to Jimmy's fake weeping at the graveside, and then there's the small matter of her having known the guy and his talent for duplicity for ten years.

Maybe Kim's surprise was more in the moment, as Jimmy had faltered after he began to read Chuck's letter out at the hearing. Kim had said before that what was in the letter was not in the words but in the reading (and hadn't we seen her cry after her own reading of it?). What had appeared to be Jimmy's epiphany turned out to be another con (and Kim had even been suckered by it).

Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #461 on: October 12, 2018, 01:22:39 PM »
Maybe Kim's surprise was more in the moment, as Jimmy had faltered after he began to read Chuck's letter out at the hearing. Kim had said before that what was in the letter was not in the words but in the reading (and hadn't we seen her cry after her own reading of it?). What had appeared to be Jimmy's epiphany turned out to be another con (and Kim had even been suckered by it).

That's what I think too. I was taken in by his stumble. I thought he'd finally come to terms with Chuck's death. To see him use it in such a manipulative way was shocking. (And brilliant TV)

Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #462 on: October 12, 2018, 02:17:17 PM »
BCS is the story of how these emotionally wounded men slowly and meticulously built their empires and BB is the story of one asshole who swoops in and destroys it all with reckless abandon. That's why we're never going to get the same variety of action set pieces or marquee moments like on Breaking Bad.

Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #463 on: October 14, 2018, 01:56:17 PM »
Bit late but I'm posting to brag about how as soon as The Winner Takes it All started up I remembered that it was foreshadowed much earlier in the season - there's a muzaky version playing in one of the first phone shop scenes while Jimmy's on the phone, which I rewound at the time because I have an obsession with identifying odd bits of music and sounds in things.

I thought it was a good episode and a good season. In the prior seasons I thought Jimmy's story was the weakest part of the show, but that was mainly down to Chuck so his death changed everything for me and I ended up much more invested in that than any of the Mike stuff. In this episode I really enjoyed the shoplifter scene in particular.

I have to echo a comment above that I don't think the Kim actress is very strong, often reacting to things with no facial movement whatsoever. She's nice in interviews but I do think it's an odd bit of casting. I think your man who plays Mike can be an incredibly weak actor at times too - I thought that even back in Breaking Bad. He gives the most bizarre, inhuman line deliveries sometimes.

I still think that BB is a much stronger show. There are really weak elements to it, like the cousins, or Walt striking up a deal with Tuco after blowing his office up etc, but the character of Walt is so interesting, and the dynamic with him and Jesse so funny, it will always eclipse BCS.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2018, 02:47:35 PM by colacentral »

NoSleep

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Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #464 on: October 14, 2018, 02:18:10 PM »
I have to echo a conment above that I don't think the Kim actress is very strong, often reacting to things with no facial movement whatsoever.

I dunno; I think she's defined the character in her performance to the extent that I wouldn't be able separate whether it's the actress or Kim not reacting in a certain way.

Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #465 on: October 14, 2018, 02:56:21 PM »
Bit disappointed by the ending, rather heavy handed. Jimmy has just had a big fight with Kim where she reacted to him being insincere and always faking/lying his way out of things. Then he brags about doing it in front of her again? Didnt ring true for me.

NoSleep

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Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #466 on: October 14, 2018, 03:04:21 PM »
I think that might be the point of it. He's too busy triumphing to realise that Kim isn't going to see things the same way.

Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #467 on: October 14, 2018, 03:28:38 PM »
Rhea Seehorn is one of the main reasons I love the show. An beautifully subtle, clever performance, and the perfect counterpoint to Odenkirk.

Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #468 on: October 14, 2018, 07:32:25 PM »
I think that might be the point of it. He's too busy triumphing to realise that Kim isn't going to see things the same way.

But he should know that, as it's already happened a few scenes before. He should be well aware that she won't react well to it.

NoSleep

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Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #469 on: October 14, 2018, 07:51:43 PM »
Do you think he would have thought of that above the immediate goal of winning over the panel to get his license back? He did it all in front of Kim and probably thought she had seen it for what it was (vindicating his methods at times). Instead she is taken in by his act and thinks Jimmy has risen above his contempt for Chuck.

We'd been set up for him to change tack on the fly (I knew it was a ruse from the out) by his quick thinking, earlier in the season, when he returns to speak to the photocopier guys in order to set up the hummel robbery.

Dex Sawash

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Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #470 on: October 15, 2018, 01:32:13 AM »
I thought Jimmy was too good of a conman to spike the ball that way while still in the building where the hearing happened. Maybe it was important to build his excitement for the "S'all good man" moment. Didn't like it much.

Z

  • The movie, not the TV series, or the book
Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #471 on: October 15, 2018, 11:04:03 PM »
The ending felt like it dependent on you being conned by his speech too, which I wasn't at all. So the reveal after was just oddly flat.

Maybe you weren't though, oddly flat isn't that bad of an ending to the season tbh.

Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #472 on: October 16, 2018, 08:21:39 AM »
But he should know that, as it's already happened a few scenes before. He should be well aware that she won't react well to it.

One of the things I think is going on through this season is they are kinda going through the early phases of a breakup, it’s very possible Jimmy is more interested in being happy for himself than keeping her sweet at this point

mothman

  • I don't know why
Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #473 on: October 16, 2018, 12:46:20 PM »
If he was sufficiently caught up in the moment, to not consider NOT crowing about his victory when a member of the appeals board could be just around the corner, then he’s not going to consider how Kim - his partner in crime for several cons, including the one he just did - might react. Plus, he’s been largely oblivious to how much she was affected by his non-reaction to Chuck’s death.

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

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Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #474 on: October 16, 2018, 01:24:53 PM »
One of the things I think is going on through this season is they are kinda going through the early phases of a breakup, it’s very possible Jimmy is more interested in being happy for himself than keeping her sweet at this point

Jimmy became increasingly, albeit subconsciously, self-destructive during that most recent season. Chuck made him feel worthless. The world around him made him feel worthless. He gradually rejected Kim, his only source of love and support, because he felt he didn't deserve her. He hates himself.

When Kim inevitably leaves him, it will confirm the lowly opinion he has of himself. A self-fulfilling prophecy. That's the whole point of his story really, isn't it?

NoSleep

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Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #475 on: October 16, 2018, 01:52:23 PM »
There's that montage about the two of them getting up in the morning, which shows their lives getting increasingly out of step (which may or may not be a problem, depending on the couple) but it's all set to the tune of Somethin' Stupid, suggesting there's probably a lot (or maybe just something) goes unsaid.

SpiderChrist

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Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #476 on: October 17, 2018, 12:42:57 PM »
Decided to start re-watching BCS from the beginning, and was a bit startled by the pace of the first three episodes - it definitely has more of a BB feel to it initially.

Phil_A

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Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #477 on: October 18, 2018, 10:00:23 PM »
I picked up a copy of the Illuminatus! Trilogy in a charity shop today, was quite surprised to read the name of one of the central characters...



Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #478 on: Yesterday at 07:20:12 PM »
This was great.

Kim's eventually gonna end up in jail, isn't she?

mothman

  • I don't know why
Re: Better Call Saul - Season 4
« Reply #479 on: Yesterday at 09:37:05 PM »
Oh. Something in Timothy’s suggestion has triggered my hypothesisin’ muscle.

Quote
Hey, I'm a civilian. I'm not your lawyer anymore. I'm nobody's lawyer. The fun's over. From here on out, I'm Mr. Low Profile, just another douchebag with a job and three pairs of Dockers. If I'm lucky, a month from now – best case scenario – I'm managing a Cinnabon in Omaha.

Has it ever occurred to anyone that Saul’s prediction to Walt was just way too far on the nose? Now, maybe he already knew what his new life was going to be, but it seems an off way to phrase it, especially to somebody who’s unstable and unpredictable to do him harm. Or maybe, he had a good idea where he was going, because he’d made the arrangements for his new life a long time ago. Because he knew one day he’d need it.

And because Kim herself has already been relocated in a similar way. That is why she’s not around or ever mentioned in BB. Don’t ask me why - for her own safety, collateral damage from Saul’s business dealings; maybe she embezzled Mesa Verde out of millions. But that’s what was in the box in Saul’s office wall. His way of contacting her. In the flash forwards, he’s waiting for her. For her to make contact. For him to be sure he’s gotten away clean. Maybe he’ll wait for ever. Maybe she, in the end, has conned him.