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Twin Peaks Season 3...

Started by Mister Six, June 06, 2018, 01:56:17 PM

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Blumf

More horns:



"The buck stops here" being a phrase President Truman used, apparently.

Meanwhile, in FWWM's Deer Meadow




GoblinAhFuckScary


BlodwynPig

Quote from: GoblinAhFuckScary on February 23, 2021, 09:08:59 PM
oh yes of course x

I thought of the ceiling fan as another visual element of your hypothesis.

BlodwynPig

Quote from: Blumf on February 23, 2021, 09:04:19 PM
More horns:



"The buck stops here" being a phrase President Truman used, apparently.

Meanwhile, in FWWM's Deer Meadow





Ben Horne

mjwilson

Quote from: colacentral on February 23, 2021, 06:21:02 PM
One thing that bothers me is Naido. There's an obvious link to "the experiment" with her having no eyes. When she first appears she says "my mother is coming" and most people tend to think that she's referring to the experiment.

One interesting thing that Sabrina Sutherland let slip in an interview, I think it was at the UK Twin Peaks fest in 2018, was that the original script for episode 1 of season 3 was almost all silent and almost all following a character named in the script as just "asian woman," which likely means it was Naido.

I know there were people speculating that Naido was Judy...

Really? I thought it was fairly well-accepted than that Naido is the real Diane. (I mean, all theories welcome but this seems like an unusual one.)

And isn't it not-actually-Ronette-Pulaski who says "my mother is coming", not Naido?

BlodwynPig


Mister Six

Quote from: mjwilson on February 23, 2021, 10:09:25 PM
Really? I thought it was fairly well-accepted than that Naido is the real Diane. (I mean, all theories welcome but this seems like an unusual one.)

And isn't it not-actually-Ronette-Pulaski who says "my mother is coming", not Naido?

Yes, credited as "American Girl".

colacentral

#607
Quote from: mjwilson on February 23, 2021, 10:09:25 PM
Really? I thought it was fairly well-accepted than that Naido is the real Diane. (I mean, all theories welcome but this seems like an unusual one.)

And isn't it not-actually-Ronette-Pulaski who says "my mother is coming", not Naido?

What I mean is that the outer layer of Diane, the Naido part, would be Judy in that scenario.

I'm thinking that the idea would be that the fireman swapped Judy (the small bug in episode 8), which was going to be Sarah's baby, with Laura. Later, it was swapped with Diane and hidden in the purple room (you're right about ronette, I forgot the line was said by her, but Naido is there, directing Cooper).

Bob is looking for Judy, so rapes Laura in the assumption that she must be her, as the child of Sarah; then later does the same with bad cooper and Diane; then finally tries the same in the jail cell, this time with the real Judy.

Naido being Judy was a popular opinion in 2017, one I didn't agree with at the time, not until trying to make sense of the Naido character off the back of reading the thread today.

Bob always inhabits a host body, ie Leland and Cooper. People, including me, have tended to think that Sarah is inhabited by Judy. But I think we could assume that "the experiment" inhabits Sarah, and Judy is something different. So who does Judy inhabit? It could be argued that the intention (by the experiment or whoever) was to inhabit Laura, which is why Leland raped her. But the fireman swapped her (as seen in episode 8) to avoid the scenario described in "the final dossier" (Bob mating with Judy).

Laura then dies, so Diane is used to inhabit Judy and swapped with a tulpa, hence bad cooper / Bob raping her. So Naido is both the "real" Diane and Judy at the same time.

I think there is a fair amount of evidence that would back up the idea of the Laura from FWWM not being the "real" Laura - she has a few lines in FWWM that could be interpreted that way. There's also an implication of something sinister to the Laura we see in some of the lodge scenes, "sometimes my arms bend back" is I believe represented visually by the experiment, and in FWWM it cuts to her dead body after the monkey says "Judy".

The Fireman both created the gold Laura orb and told Andy about Naido, who goes on to say that she's very important and there are people who want to kill her. We know that both Coopers are looking for Judy, and they end up in the sheriff's office. What other purpose does Naido serve being there otherwise, and why would Diane have a tulpa?

If I recall correctly, Dougie is another tulpa made by the fireman, also with a gold orb.

The main issue is that Laura's death doesn't follow the same pattern as the other tulpas we see, such as Diane, who crumpled into nothing rather than leaving a dead body like Laura does.

Regardless, the blue rose (what comes to be the symbol of tulpas) is established in FWWM, and though I think that Lynch has probably changed his mind over certain things over the years, when going back to watch that film after the airing of season 3, it does seem that the idea of doubles is hinted at there.

Not to mention that, even after we see the "real" Diane in episode 17, once the Naido cover disappears, there is a double of Diane seen in episode 18. And there are at least 4 Coopers throughout season 3. So there's a constant theme throughout of different selves; and of questioning which are real, if any (or all, as is possible with the various aspects of Cooper that manifest).

Thematically, I just think it makes more sense in hindsight that Judy, the character that Bob is trying to reach (and presumably rape), is the daughter of the experiment (Sarah) rather than being Sarah. Sarah blames Laura for everything that happens, including Leland's death; the experiment blames Judy for Bob's death. The photo stabbing scene is both Sarah and the experiment lashing out at Laura / Judy.

As I said, from 2017 up until this morning I was convinced that Judy was Sarah, but this thread got me thinking back over the stuff that always bugged me and the idea of Judy being Laura and Diane / Naido (the same way that Bob was both Leland and Cooper) answers alot of questions (while admittedly raising others).

Another thing I was thinking about was the idea of Carrie Page being the "real" Laura, and Laura being the bollocks fantasy version, is similar to the Naomi Watts character in Mulholland Drive.

Twin Peaks actually more or less follows the structure of Mulholland Drive quite closely - the vast majority being a fantasy, the very end (episode 18) being the grittier, real version of the character. Having rewatched FWWM this evening off the back of this thread, there's even a scene where Laura sits down and watches Julee Cruise sing, and she starts to weep in her seat, not dissimilar to Naomi Watts breaking down in tears at the singing in Club Silencio.

We know that Lynch recycles themes and visuals, like the Lost Highway road shots. I wonder if the idea for Carrie Page was in Lynch's mind during the original run of Twin Peaks, and ended up recycled into Mulholland Drive's ending.


colacentral

Interesting extra info that I just found on the internet from starting to go down this rabbit hole, that could just be meaningless coincidental bollocks, is that Judy was originally intended to be Agent Jeffries' secretary in FWWM (as well as Josie's sister, which I think most people know anyway), not unlike Diane, who was Cooper's secretary.

Custard

Rewatching episode 18 earlier, I think it's clear that the Coop who comes out of the lodge is not THE Coop. Or is it? When he is first greeted by Diane he appears to be, but then when they "cross over" in the car on the way to the motel he's not as warm as Coop, and seems like a different, colder version

I actually love that we're still discussing this show, 4 years later!

Custard

And of course, if that wasn't the "real" Coop, then he's not stuck in (seemingly) another timeline or dimension, and is back to being stuck in the lodge

Either scenario is really depressing!

Phil_A

What was up with Diane seeing a double of herself while she was waiting in the car right before they go into the motel? Just a general indication of things being "not right"?

Mister Six

Quote from: Shameless Custard on February 24, 2021, 12:28:07 AM
Rewatching episode 18 earlier, I think it's clear that the Coop who comes out of the lodge is not THE Coop. Or is it? When he is first greeted by Diane he appears to be, but then when they "cross over" in the car on the way to the motel he's not as warm as Coop, and seems like a different, colder version

I actually love that we're still discussing this show, 4 years later!

That's the real Coop - something changes when they cross over.

Unless you mean the Coop we saw in seasons one and two (and who came out of the Lodge in season three) isn't the real Coop, in which case your guess is as good as mine.

Custard

I just meant the one who leaves the lodge in episode 18 and is greeted by Diane.

So it is him, but he just changes once they cross over? That makes more sense!

Yeah, I was confused at the Diane double outside the motel too. And her calm reaction to seeing it. That one is lost on me

BlodwynPig

Ⴇiɒnɘ iƨ ɒn ɒnɒϱɿɒm oʇ Иɒibo, Obin, Ⴇɘɒn (Hυɿlɘγ), Иɒbinɘ, Œ



Mr Trumpet

Quote from: Phil_A on February 24, 2021, 03:32:18 AM
What was up with Diane seeing a double of herself while she was waiting in the car right before they go into the motel? Just a general indication of things being "not right"?

That's just before a big shift in reality isn't it? Cooper becomes Richard, Diane becomes Linda. The hotel they're in changes. Possibly Diane had a glimpse of the person she was soon to become, or that was some essence of Diane departing.

Retinend

Quote from: colacentral on February 23, 2021, 02:50:33 PM
My personal opinion is that if you had to really simplify it, the mythology stuff has essentially evolved into a metaphor for how Lynch sees meditation. I'm sure that the phrase "we live inside a dream" is written about in his meditation book, "catching the big fish." I can't remember exactly what he's said, but I think it was referring to the idea of a shared consciousness, essentially this: https://transcendental-meditation.se/unity/

And how that applies to Twin Peaks - the world of the lodges is a physical place accessed through portals in the "real" world, but it's also somewhere that people reach through dreams, e.g. Cooper in the first season. So it stands to reason that the lodges are in the minds of everyone, and the minds or spirits or whatever of everyone is one physical space.

Then off that, I think we have this idea that good or positive actions create positive outcomes, and negative actions create negative outcomes, for lack of a more articulate way to put it. Twin Peaks has become a shittier place over the years, with increased crime and drug use (the latter being I think Lynch's idea of people escaping into their own "dreams," not to be confused with the shared consciousness, like Laura using drugs to escape reality; and he links this through his references to the Wizard of Oz and Alice in Wonderland, both about girls escaping their reality through fantasy / illusions); and people like Richard making the world a worse place for everyone, with his actions leading to several deaths, including of the little boy he runs over. This also links to the main Laura Palmer through line too because abuse of children often leads to them becoming abusers themselves, with Leland clearly implying he was molested as a child when he talks about meeting Bob, and the metaphor of Bob attempting to pass over to Laura in FWWM.

Compare that to Dougie, who is the most purely "good" character in the show - his complete lack of calculation, conniving, his living in the present, and whatever else - it rubs off on people, and he makes the world a better place, even having a positive effect on the gangster characters he meets.

So the way I see it, the negative actions of people poison the shared consciousness, or to put it another way, they increase the power of the black lodge.

I find the senorita dido stuff perplexing, but if her and the giant / fireman are the white lodge, as people usually tend to believe, then it maybe relates to something else in the "big fish" book, a section where Lynch talks about enlightenment being like finding "towers of gold." Since the white lodge (if that's what we think it is) is a tower in the middle of a sea, and the fireman creates Laura as an orb of gold, I think these things fit together somehow.

I obviously don't think that that's all there is to it - there's the idea of Sarah victim blaming Laura, for example. I think "the roadhouse" becomes a pun in the third season, as most of the time it appears to either not be a "real" place, or it appears to be a place where we see other realities, making it a "house of roads" or portals, like the other portals we see in the woods.

There's also an obvious "bug" theme, and that goes back with Lynch to at least as far as Blue Velvet, with the cockroaches in the opening scene. The Woodsmen are like ants (literally men of woods - there are a few interviews where Lynch talks about being a child, getting close to a cherry tree and seeing it swarming with ants. Also, formica is a type of ant. The Black Lodge is heavily associated with bugs, which in Blue Velvet imagery is corruption). The gardening glove is clearing "the garden" of Twin Peaks from the bug Bob, and that's why it's specifically coloured green (like the formica table).

Episode 18 - fuck knows.

Thread moves fast - but though I'm late, just wanted to say this is an excellent post.

Custard

Yeah, that was a great interesting read

Mr Trumpet

It is a good read, and gets closer to the way Lynch actually conceptualises his work. But don't forget Mark Frost's involvement in the show. A lot of the ideas we see in Twin Peaks originate with him, albeit filtered through Lynch's vision.

colacentral

Thanks.

I've just been searching around for any more discussion online around TP and the unified field and found these interesting videos:

https://youtu.be/2vxBOZROJfc

https://youtu.be/wBYvclpPs5Q

I've not watched any more of this channel's videos yet, but I think that nicely explains something that has frustrated me for a while, namely the role of the green ring. It saves Laura from possession by Bob, so why does Cooper not want her to wear it? Even though we know, particularly from scenes in season 3, that it's purpose seems to be to send souls to the red room / waiting room, it's still always seemed odd that Cooper would prefer her to be raped and possessed by Bob.

Well I think if we follow the idea that the waiting room is only the next level of reality down from ours (the surface layer as he calls it in the video above), then it's a curse for Laura's soul to never reach the deepest layer (I guess the towers of gold, the white lodge, the fire man's house). She same from there (in episode 8), so her being unable to go there is her being unable to go home.

As the video above says, this does seem to make sense of some of lodge Laura's dialogue - the idea that her spirit is a prisoner (or fuel / garmonbozia source?) of Judy rather than being allowed to go home to the fireman.


mjwilson

Quote from: colacentral on February 24, 2021, 11:05:04 AM
Thanks.

I've just been searching around for any more discussion online around TP and the unified field and found these interesting videos:

https://youtu.be/2vxBOZROJfc

https://youtu.be/wBYvclpPs5Q

I've not watched any more of this channel's videos yet, but I think that nicely explains something that has frustrated me for a while, namely the role of the green ring. It saves Laura from possession by Bob, so why does Cooper not want her to wear it? Even though we know, particularly from scenes in season 3, that it's purpose seems to be to send souls to the red room / waiting room, it's still always seemed odd that Cooper would prefer her to be raped and possessed by Bob.

I haven't watched those videos but it's possible that Cooper just doesn't understand what the ring is for. Maybe he just thinks he's saving Laura's life and is oblivious to the other implications.

Happy Twin Peaks day everyone!

NoSleep


Custard

I believe Feb 24 is the very day Coop first rolled into Twin Peaks (in the story)

Mister Six

In 2018, Feb 24th was declared Twin Peaks Day in Snoqualmie and North Bend, where the series was filmed.


Click for bigness.

GoblinAhFuckScary

Quote from: mjwilson on February 24, 2021, 05:06:36 PM
I haven't watched those videos but it's possible that Cooper just doesn't understand what the ring is for. Maybe he just thinks he's saving Laura's life and is oblivious to the other implications.

At a fanficcy stretch it could be a Doppelcoop, since it's specifically in BOB's interest for Laura not to wear the ring so that he could possess her. If it were a real Coop he could be aware that her murder is certain if she wears it.

Retinend

I agree that the answer is that Cooper in FWWM is simply ignorant: he only knows that a previous victim's strange disappearance had something to do with the ring. He associates the ring with the crime scene he investigated at the start of the film.

Mister Six

Glad this thread has been revived, actually, as I've been meaning to write this post for a little while...

The other month I was reading Supergods: What Masked Vigilantes, Miraculous Mutants, and a Sun God from Smallville Can Teach Us About Being Human a 2012 book by comic book author and Actual Magician Grant Morrison. It's partly an autobiography, partly a history of superheroes in US comics, partly a musing on the nature of mythology and what it represents to and about us, and partly a discussion of magick[nb]Ie. Aleister Crowley, not Paul Daniels.[/nb] and its applications.

Anyway, I came across this bit here, and the talk of passing between pylons to another world - either the world of imagination or physical reality, depending on your direction - made my Twin Peaks senses tingle:

QuoteIn traditional Western occult symbolism, the gateway to the lunar realm of imagination is flanked by twin pylons, or towers. If you look at most versions of the tarot trump card number 18, the Moon, you will see these towers. They represent the door that separates the world of fantasy from material reality.

The descent of the kabbalistic thirty-second path of the tree of life describes an apocalyptic event involving the merging of two distinct spheres: the earthly and the lunar. The lunar sphere is the imagination, the world of thoughts and dreams. The earthly sphere is of the mundane, solid and heavy. In short, not only does real life become more like a story, stories must pay the price of this exchange by becoming more real and allowing the rules of the material world to impinge upon their insubstantial territories.

Those pylons are towers rather than the electrical pylons seen in episode 18 -



- but still, the idea of transiting between the realm of imagination (the dreamed/the Twin Peaks of Sheriff Truman and the Palmers) and the realm of material reality (the dreamer/Odessa and the Twin Peaks of "What year is this?"), and the two impacting each other, stuck a chord with me. Remember that the woman living in the apparent Palmer residence in the last scene is played by the real-life owner of the home, as herself. Is that Cooper leaving the fictional world and entering the "real" one - a place where the "damn good coffee" white knight of FWWM can't exist, so he becomes a harder, stranger one?

Lynch said something after The Return ended - something along the lines of "If we had made a better world, we would live in it, but instead we are stood in front of the Palmer house." Can't find the quote now. But is there the implication that the more whimsical aspects of Twin Peaks must necessarily exist in a fictional realm (which is, after all, closer to the transcendental "gold" of the imagination that Lynch encourages everyone to meditate towards) and that our physical reality is too infected, too poisoned for it to survive out there? And as a meta-comment - the Twin Peaks of the 1990s just isn't relevant any more, to Lynch or to our world?

Maybe it's just bollocks, but the book came out when the series was still being written, and Frost is into all kinds of esoteric shit. And I spotted echoes of  Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol in this final season of Twin Peaks[nb]Although the only one I can remember right now is The Love Glove, a superhero/villain who dreamed of a magical glove, and when he put it on it became part of his body and gave him super powers, which sounds rather like Cockney boy Freddie Sykes, doesn't it?.[/nb] so it's entirely possible - in my mind, at least - that Frost could have read that book and fed it into the overall conception of the season.

Something to ponder, anyway.

Custard

Interesting stuff

I finally read The Secret History of Twin Peaks this week, and very good it was too. Have ordered The Final Dossier, so that should arrive in the next few days

colacentral

Quote from: Mister Six on February 24, 2021, 07:35:14 PM
Glad this thread has been revived, actually, as I've been meaning to write this post for a little while...

The other month I was reading Supergods: What Masked Vigilantes, Miraculous Mutants, and a Sun God from Smallville Can Teach Us About Being Human a 2012 book by comic book author and Actual Magician Grant Morrison. It's partly an autobiography, partly a history of superheroes in US comics, partly a musing on the nature of mythology and what it represents to and about us, and partly a discussion of magick[nb]Ie. Aleister Crowley, not Paul Daniels.[/nb] and its applications.

Anyway, I came across this bit here, and the talk of passing between pylons to another world - either the world of imagination or physical reality, depending on your direction - made my Twin Peaks senses tingle:

Those pylons are towers rather than the electrical pylons seen in episode 18 -



- but still, the idea of transiting between the realm of imagination (the dreamed/the Twin Peaks of Sheriff Truman and the Palmers) and the realm of material reality (the dreamer/Odessa and the Twin Peaks of "What year is this?"), and the two impacting each other, stuck a chord with me. Remember that the woman living in the apparent Palmer residence in the last scene is played by the real-life owner of the home, as herself. Is that Cooper leaving the fictional world and entering the "real" one - a place where the "damn good coffee" white knight of FWWM can't exist, so he becomes a harder, stranger one?

Lynch said something after The Return ended - something along the lines of "If we had made a better world, we would live in it, but instead we are stood in front of the Palmer house." Can't find the quote now. But is there the implication that the more whimsical aspects of Twin Peaks must necessarily exist in a fictional realm (which is, after all, closer to the transcendental "gold" of the imagination that Lynch encourages everyone to meditate towards) and that our physical reality is too infected, too poisoned for it to survive out there? And as a meta-comment - the Twin Peaks of the 1990s just isn't relevant any more, to Lynch or to our world?

Maybe it's just bollocks, but the book came out when the series was still being written, and Frost is into all kinds of esoteric shit. And I spotted echoes of  Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol in this final season of Twin Peaks[nb]Although the only one I can remember right now is The Love Glove, a superhero/villain who dreamed of a magical glove, and when he put it on it became part of his body and gave him super powers, which sounds rather like Cockney boy Freddie Sykes, doesn't it?.[/nb] so it's entirely possible - in my mind, at least - that Frost could have read that book and fed it into the overall conception of the season.

Something to ponder, anyway.

I do think that Frost is probably pulling from all sorts of mad occult stuff, he seems to have an encyclopedic knowledge of it.

I was actually going to respond to the reply a few posts back regarding Frost's contribution: it seems like the popular consensus for a long time was that Lynch was the one coming up with all the "weird" stuff and Frost is the one shaping it into a cohesive narrative, but I tend to think it's the opposite - Frost throws a lot of mad shit at the wall and Lynch filters it through his world view and makes sense of it.

Lynch is actually very focused in his story telling, besides maybe Inland Empire, which is the one thing that he made up as he went along, whereas one of the problems with late season 2 TP, and to some extent the first Frost dossier book, is that it's alot of weird x-files stuff introduced without much sense of purpose.

Custard

Didn't Lynch make a snarky comment about the books not being "his" idea of the history of Peaks? Seems a bit ungracious in print, but maybe he said it with a wink and a smile