Author Topic: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice  (Read 18537 times)

TrenterPercenter

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Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #120 on: March 31, 2019, 11:04:31 AM »
I've played a bit more now still enjoying it but there are a few bits of sloppiness not usually seen in From Games.

Firstly for a game that has a big stealth element the idea that enemies move backwards so they can still look in the general direction of you whilst returning to their starting point is silly and poorly thought out.

Added to this is the stealth mode button being way to easy to click out of and requires clicking in after every move (i.e. block, click stealth, lower down of ledge click stealth) you can forever be clicking it and unclicking.

But also the use item button is really silly where it is, just use square ffs, the amount of times i'v moved or done something else trying to use an item because of were it is placed.

Other than that is great.  It's no Bloodborne though.

Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #121 on: March 31, 2019, 12:05:51 PM »
You can remap every single button.

Ha Moribundereast, were still following the same path. Im in the exact same spot as you.

I also completely agree about the rock paper scissors thing. It is poor design. In some situations later in the game you just have to guess because the animations for the attacks are the same and that makes for an unfair advantage for the AI.

But after almost completing the game I have come to the conclusion that Sekiro has a lot of bad gameplay designs. The fact that the AI can get hit but still can finish their attack animation is a poor gameplay move. They can also change direction mid attack or suddenly change their attacks while you as a player cant always do that.

Stealth is also very poorly implemented. Its a poor stealth action game. Enemies hear a deathblow from miles away. It sucks.

The difficulty in this game doesnt always come from the gameplay but also comes from poor camera angles, guesswork, bosses that can insta attack when attacked when you an a player cant  and enemies huge hitboxes give them an unfair advantage.

Without the difficulty being so hard (and or options for easier modes) this game would have been quite a shitty action adventure game. And since a lot of the difficulty comes from either putting the gamer in unfair position or due to bad camerawork I don't think the game deserves such praise and high reviews.

My final verdict is a 7.5 because imo everything after Horsey was quite disappointing and the bossfights werent creative or clever or inspired after the horse.

Curious what you think Moribundereast.


I laughed.

There's absolutely no guesswork. You're just not very good at it yet. As if the animations are the same.



Also, you don't understand Posture and how it works. Imagine if you could interrupt every enemy attack. Hahaha.

Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #122 on: March 31, 2019, 12:10:54 PM »
How far into the game are you? Because at bosses after Geni there is absolutely guesswork involved.

If you hit an enemy and break his posture and damage him ans he still manages to attack in a nano second after being damaged because he needs no recovery time thats just shit gameplay design.

Also strange that I'm not good at a difficult game I nearly finished. Hows that even possible.

Moribunderast

  • What is your place in my glorification?
Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #123 on: March 31, 2019, 12:21:01 PM »

I laughed.

There's absolutely no guesswork. You're just not very good at it yet. As if the animations are the same.



Also, you don't understand Posture and how it works. Imagine if you could interrupt every enemy attack. Hahaha.

GIT GUD LOL. Come on, dude - don't be that guy.

I wouldn't say the animations are the same but there's a tiny window with which to spot some of them and, with some enemies, taking the time to spot them basically leaves you with a split-second to react properly. There's one boss, especially, who has two perilous attacks - you can tell them apart if there's a good deal of space between you but if there's not it is a TINY slice of animation to look for and your evasion technique either needs to be immediate or somewhat slow - if you go the immediate route (which I normally did because it really is a tiny sliver of time you have to react) and it's the boss's other attack, you get creamed. I'm not saying the answer is necessarily to colour-code the warning or whatever but it did strike me as the first time I found the game to be unfair. Naturally there will be people who have awesome hand-eye co-ordination who can spot a half-second animation and do the right button combination in the following half-second but, for me, it was asking too much and seemed a bit silly. And this is in a boss fight I came to really appreciate by the end - it was just that one aspect that almost ruined it.

I'm not sure if you've faced this particular enemy yet (or maybe you just have awesome hand-eye co-ordination, given you love shmups and the like) but I do think it's a reasonable discussion to be had - certainly not one to just bat away with "You need to git gud" style comments.

Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #124 on: March 31, 2019, 12:42:29 PM »
Tim,


If enemies didn't have increased posture and shorter recovery times, the entire game would involve the player stun locking every single enemy and boss by just hitting R1. I'd wager that FROM have a pretty solid idea of how to design combat in games...

I haven't got there but there won't be any guesswork. I just know based on all of their other games and all of the people complaining that they're 'unfair'. They're not, they're just not transparent or have QTE for the difficult bits.

You can finish a game and not be good at it. I've finished Dark Souls 2 ten times and I'm not good at it, just good enough.


---


Mori,

I'm not saying git gud  I'm saying that's a classic complaint from people new to Souls games and a simple fact that being able to beat a boss doesn't mean you understand it inside out. When I first started playing Sekiro I found it infuriating and really really difficult because I was fighting against five years and however many hours of muscle memory. I'm still finding it hard because it's a demanding game but given there are already people sharing 'no miss' boss videos shows how high the skill ceiling is in this game.


I'm also shit at shmups but I learn and learn and learn, that's the only reason I'm any good at any of them. I've seen videos of people finding routes through thousands of pink bullets where I die in a second  Is Mushihimesama insanely hard? Yep. Is it unfair? No, I just don't have the knowledge or skill to do anything but survive.


Almost every enemy in Sekiro has twatted me at various moments but now I can destroy pretty much everything before GA (first) because I know their movesets. Some of the moves are hard to avoid (Snake Eyes Shira has a particularly nasty grab that I can't get the timing on) but I've gone from being slaughtered to running through the first half (or however much) of the game almost without being touched (except by off screen bullets). That's just knowledge of movesets and possibilities. I reckon playing a lot of fighting games probably helps a bit there.


To address Tim's points about enemies having different stats and abilities to the player, that's fundamental to making the gameplay challenging and rewarding and unpredictable. You can't simply block everything. You can't simply deflect everything. You need to know when to attack and when to change the pace, when to use your tools, etc. That's deliberate. They teach you a few fundamentals and then spend the rest of the game iterating and giving you exceptions and puzzling variables. The RPS feeds into this. It's not guesswork, it's adding variables.

Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #125 on: March 31, 2019, 01:22:06 PM »
It can be very hard to read some of the enemy animations, maybe harder than it should have been? This is one of those things that's going to differ from person to person though, and it's something that's very difficult to get right.


FSM are down, that made an interesting change, even though I feel like it was pure luck that got me through it.

Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #126 on: March 31, 2019, 02:12:12 PM »
Re: first GA.

Well, after a few more goes, I can consistently get to the second phase without taking any damage. I need to work out the jump timing for the particular attacks but I've got him right down a couple of times and much more quickly than in phase one where I'm chipping away at the health bar. It's the grab and reach on the thrusts which are really killing me, though. Still not familiar with his moveset and his options.

Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #127 on: March 31, 2019, 07:04:30 PM »
Just had an area link back to another area in such a brilliant area way that I stood up and applauded.

Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #128 on: April 01, 2019, 12:41:04 AM »
Arrived at FH today. Beated the real CM which was quite easy since you could sneak on the tree beforehand and give him two death blows. At DD now which is quite an annoying fight due to the unskippable first "fight".

Getting a bit tired of the game. Glad when its over.

Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #129 on: April 01, 2019, 06:26:22 AM »
I learned that the Snake Eyes grab attack can actually be parried because the first move in the attack is not in fact a grab, rather it transitions into the grab on a successful hit. So that explains why it was so difficult to time correctly. As ever with these games, it's about knowledge and the knowledge of iterations on established rulesets.

Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #130 on: April 01, 2019, 06:59:15 AM »
Hrm.

Starting to feel like I'm just bumbling about now, rather than the methodical progression of the early game. My fault, I guess. I should really go back and explore. I've finished ST and the FSM without *too* much trouble, though I think there's still a route there I've not taken. My next adventure just devolved into crazy unplanned running and swinging but now I'm through the GF and at... Other GA. I have explored around a bit, but yeah, maybe it's by design, but it's much harder for me to really get a feel for this part in terms of layout. Enemies are getting more irritating too, that's for sure. I miss the swordsmen tbh.

Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #131 on: April 01, 2019, 09:14:11 AM »
Had first attempt at GA yesterday after a nice run through steps-general and Blue Samurai Monk Man. Was feeling feeling myself a bit as I caned them no issues. This GA lad seems next level. Maybe tonight. Maybe.

Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #132 on: April 01, 2019, 09:21:17 AM »
Finished the game. That last boss was absolutely mental.

Now gonna play Yoshi Crafted World or something like that. Time for a break.

Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #133 on: April 01, 2019, 09:22:26 AM »
NG+, get on it.

Moribunderast

  • What is your place in my glorification?
Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #134 on: April 01, 2019, 09:30:56 AM »
Finished the game. That last boss was absolutely mental.

Now gonna play Yoshi Crafted World or something like that. Time for a break.

Nice! Well done. I just got to the final boss (I assume) and played it twice - seems insane. Gonna come back to it in a few days when I have hours to sit down and learn the patterns and attacks.

Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #135 on: April 01, 2019, 10:00:56 AM »
Thanks! You can do it as well! Just learn the timing and patterns and prepare to not throw your controller through your window and you'll be fine. :-P

What did you think of the DD? Was a weird one wasn't it?

Moribunderast

  • What is your place in my glorification?
Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #136 on: April 01, 2019, 10:36:18 AM »
Thanks! You can do it as well! Just learn the timing and patterns and prepare to not throw your controller through your window and you'll be fine. :-P

What did you think of the DD? Was a weird one wasn't it?

I was ready to be annoyed by the bit just before DD as it seemed like needless padding and a minor annoyance (very easy, just time consuming) but it ended up not being an issue as I beat DD on the 2nd try. Interesting idea but maybe a touch underdeveloped for such a late boss.

I’ve really loved the game but I have just gotten to the point I always get to with From games where it just feels like it’s gone a bit longer than necessary - especially with so many repeated enemies at the end. Just seems like stretching it for no real reason. Still likely to be my GOTY, despite minor complaints and frustrations - which I’ll detail once I’m done with the final boss.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2019, 11:01:23 AM by Moribunderast »

Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #137 on: April 01, 2019, 07:41:03 PM »
Done Guape first go this evening. Often the way with FROM games (and shmups, actually) that it takes a good breather and then I often nail it first go. I think a lot of people are like that with their games.

Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #138 on: April 01, 2019, 07:53:18 PM »
Same here. Quit for the day and next time you pick the game up you immediately win. Strange haha.

Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #139 on: April 01, 2019, 07:56:43 PM »
It's a weird thing. When I was playing a lot of Ikaruga (like 25 hrs of the same two minute stage), I would often dream about the run and perhaps I'd dream about a new strategy and then I'd get up and nail it bleary eyed. I know that sounds like nonsense but it's absolutely true.

Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #140 on: April 01, 2019, 08:33:26 PM »
Left Grape alone for now because he's annoying and so's his area. Going another route has been a lot more fun and prosperous. Took out a few fun and satisfying minibosses and saw some interesting ideas along the way. Now in some village and gonna take a break.

Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #141 on: April 02, 2019, 12:13:20 AM »
Not much else I can do other than bash my head against Gu Ape now. First phase isn't too bad, but for the 2nd phase I just can't really work out when you can get some good damage in. If you get close him, he'll just do his terror attack. It seems the only option is to be very attritional, I think there must just be opportunities I don't know how to create or take advantage of. God I just want to skip to the 2nd phase every time now.

Moribunderast

  • What is your place in my glorification?
Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #142 on: April 02, 2019, 03:40:42 AM »
Not much else I can do other than bash my head against Gu Ape now. First phase isn't too bad, but for the 2nd phase I just can't really work out when you can get some good damage in. If you get close him, he'll just do his terror attack. It seems the only option is to be very attritional, I think there must just be opportunities I don't know how to create or take advantage of. God I just want to skip to the 2nd phase every time now.

Re: 2nd phase - I found the best time to get damage in was when he does his diving attack. Jump over him as he dives and you can get a good 3 or 4 whacks in and then run like buggery to avoid the follow-up terror attack.

Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #143 on: April 02, 2019, 08:24:59 AM »
How to beat GA:

When he starts to do the weird roll on ground sword thing start to parry his attacks. After three good deflects he'll do the sweep attack. Jump. Then he jumps and hits his sword towards you. If you deflect that with perfect timing he'll stagger and you can get four hits in.

The key is to deflect that jump sword hit so you can do damage.

Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #144 on: April 02, 2019, 11:33:27 AM »
Spear yank after the deflect is the killer strat, as well. Takes a bit of time to bait that attack but it's consistent for a big punish. I've just reached GA2-2 which is an interesting mixup. Nearly did it first time but got impatient.


That's probably my main criticism of the game in fact. Fights can take ages and involve baiting certain attacks but again, that's really just because I'm not very good at it and don't know how to confidently deal with every attack.

Moribunderast

  • What is your place in my glorification?
Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #145 on: April 02, 2019, 01:42:58 PM »
That's probably my main criticism of the game in fact. Fights can take ages and involve baiting certain attacks but again, that's really just because I'm not very good at it and don't know how to confidently deal with every attack.

Yeah, there's clearly many openings that are available but are very hard to distinguish until you try and succeed at them. There's lots of avenues to victory there to discover, as can be seen from three of us in this thread all giving different advice that all got us the win. I do love that about this game. For all the difficulty (and I've seen many say it's harder than any Souls game) I have found it more rewarding and fairer - and that may be down to the lack of multiplayer. I have long thought I never would have finished a Souls or Bloodborne if not for the co-op option but this game is teaching me: maybe I would? I think that option has caused me, at times, to defer to it in times of frustration rather than persevering and learning. This game, you either learn or you don't progress - and every boss that I've found frustrating I have eventually learned how to beat and felt thrilled and satisfied after doing so. Still can't be doing with the Guape's perilous attacks, but whatever.

I'm yet to play Dark Souls 3 but when I get to it I might set myself a real goal to go it alone unless absolutely stuck. If the co-op option existed I totally would have used it on Guape and maybe even Big O but I'm so glad I persisted and found a way alone. I bought this game expecting to hit a brick wall and not finish but I'm up to the last boss and am confident I'll get it done when I have time to sit down and do it. It can be frustrating but it is, mostly, fair.

Boston Crab, can I ask your thoughts on Nioh and The Surge? I own them both but am yet to play - how do they rank within this genre and are they worthy of the time or just difficult pricks?

Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #146 on: April 02, 2019, 02:16:33 PM »
Nioh was great! Better then Sekiro imo. If you enjoyed Sekiro you loveeee Nioh

Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #147 on: April 02, 2019, 08:51:01 PM »
Mori,

I found Nioh really great for about ten hours but it's exceptionally repetitive. Very few enemy types, lots of revisiting the same areas. I just got bored, basically. I also thought the balance was off. It's all about the loot and so you'd constantly be switching weapons to the newest you found which made upgrading or even learning the movesets less meaningful than I'd hoped. It felt like the numbers were far more important than my ability or improved skills. Some of the combat mechanics are fucking excellent, though. Different stances affecting your movesets are great. Stamina (ki) having a kind of quick recharge if you time your inputs correctly is a genius idea and gives combat an amazing flow and rhythm. It's a great game at its core, just lacking in content or much creativity to the level design or the world. Alongside Sekiro with its interconnected areas and shortcuts and surprises, it's very functional. If they address that, though, the sequel could be absolutely fantastic.

I've not played The Surge but I've heard little positive about it. Ultimately, very few 'Soulslikes' are worth a damn because they lift the superficial elements or mechanics and don't come close to the holistic design that Miyazaki's attention to detail brings.

Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #148 on: April 02, 2019, 09:18:45 PM »
FUCKIN YASSS Grape is down!

Re: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice
« Reply #149 on: April 02, 2019, 10:23:20 PM »
Thursday in which way / with which tactic did you beat him?

Boston is right about Nioh being a bit repetitive but to be fair you can say the same about the second half of Sekiro.

I really missed the RPG elements in this game.

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