Hollow Knight

[Phil_A]

Urghh. This game is torture to me, yet I'm still playing. I very nearly ragequit over the Mantis Village area after I'd lost all my geo for like the third time.

Got the Mantis Claw though, didn't I, so I'm obliged to keep playing. Fuuuuuuuuuck.

[Kelvin]

Don't worry about geo too much, Phil. There's a constant stream of the stuff, especially if you equip that charm that sucks it all into you. I've bought every item in the game, and ive had 900+ geo for hours.

I'm still mopping up secrets, charms and mask pieces in this, but I reckon I'll just go and get the first ending tmw, as I've been putting it off for a few days.

[Kelvin]

Just completed this. Got 94% completion, and reckon I'll now use a guide to mop up the last few charms and secrets. I was surprised to learn I never even stumbled across the Grimm Troupe DLC in all that time (38 hours). It's really obscurely hidden.

[Kelvin]

Finally 100%'d this. Technically 107%, actually, as there's an additional 7% for the free, included DLC.

I actually ended up enjoying it all far more in the late/post game, as I knew most of the areas really well by then, and had a late game powerup that let me teleport to stag stations at will. Bosses, pitched at the perfect difficulty, were a high point, as were the bountiful supply of secrets you stumble across while exploring; quirky characters, hidden charms, completely inessential boss encounters. There's just a constant drip feed of cool stuff to keep you engaged - especially later on. I still think a lot of the regions look a bit samey, but the overall look and atmosphere of the game is really top tier stuff - and it's arguably the most beautiful side scrolling game I've ever played. The character design and writing is excellent, too.   

[lazyhour]

Does this have anything to do with Shovel Knight? That game (and the Spectre Knight subgame maybe even moreso) is one of my absolute faves so I hope the answer is yes.

[The Boston Crab]

No.

[Kelvin]

No, it's a sidescrolling metroidvania/platformer, with an absolutely beautiful art style. It's much harder than Shovel Knight, and much more about exploration than A to B level progression. It does involve quite a bit of pogo-ing off enemy heads and other traps, though, and it shares some of the simple rpg/adventure game elements.

Watch some trailers and gameplay on YouTube. As a very good 2D platformer, it's definitely possible that it would appeal to a fan of shovel knight.

[madhair60]

Yes mate it is the sequel -you should buy it

[lazyhour]

Thx madhair

[The Boston Crab]

I'm tempted to give this another go. I must admit that after the first hour of being aroused by the graphics and atmosphere, I started to find it a bit of a drag. I've seen quite a few people saying the opening is a slog, though, and it gets better in the middle, before arguably outstaying its welcome a bit, YMMV.

I just got the dash, basically. If I'm not feeling it by now, am I into the good stuff or is it still warming up? I tend to have ten or so games on the go because I actually hate computer games but can overcome this with sheer variety and wealth of distraction that there's always something I'm not averse to and I'm wondering whether to make a modicum of effort with this to slip it back into rotation.

[madhair60]

I'd be more willing to play it if I could warp around the map because the backtracking is fuckcunt arseache

[The Boston Crab]

I think there's some item you get later which lets you warp but maybe too little too late

[Kelvin]

I'm tempted to give this another go. I must admit that after the first hour of being aroused by the graphics and atmosphere, I started to find it a bit of a drag. I've seen quite a few people saying the opening is a slog, though, and it gets better in the middle, before arguably outstaying its welcome a bit, YMMV.

I just got the dash, basically. If I'm not feeling it by now, am I into the good stuff or is it still warming up? I tend to have ten or so games on the go because I actually hate computer games but can overcome this with sheer variety and wealth of distraction that there's always something I'm not averse to and I'm wondering whether to make a modicum of effort with this to slip it back into rotation.

I don't really agree that it changes quality over time - or at least not until the late game. As Madhair says, the main problem is the amount of backtracking, and this remains an issue for most of the game.

I enjoyed it in spite of this, but if you found it a drag before, don't expect a point where that suddenly changes. You just need to learn the areas, open all the stag stations, obtain lots of mobility charms, and unlock enough moves to get around faster.

I think there's some item you get later which lets you warp but maybe too little too late

There's an item that allows you to warp back to wherever you placed it, and this does change the game considerably if placed near a stag station or a boss you're struggling with. However, its fairly late game.

[Kelvin]

All that said, I do think you'd enjoy the game, Bosto. The bosses and challenge are great, and later on you find loads of bosses that aren't essential, but are lots of fun -and useful- to fight.

[madhair60]

The game is awesome.  I just really, really, really wish they'd have some sense of brevity. Everything takes longer than it should do.

[The Boston Crab]

Hmm. It basically takes all the superficial stuff about Dark Souls. Patience, challenge, obtuseness, plus some mechanical rip offs, and none of the stuff that's meaningful to me like the world building and environmental storytelling and NPCs. By its 2D nature, the level design just isn't very interesting, either. I also maybe said elsewhere but I'm sick to fucking death of Metroidvanias and skill trees. I think it's a really well made game but aside from the atmosphere, which is brilliant, it's not doing anything for me I've not felt elsewhere. It's basically Shantae with different graphics, no tits and depression.

[Kelvin]

I mean, it clearly is influenced by the aspects of Dark Souls you mention, but I think the platforming and general level design is good in its own right. I also think the world building is pretty good, with a story that never gets explicitly stated, just hinted and chipped away at.

[Kelvin]

The NPCs are really good in Hollow Knight,
too. I feel like the game is influenced by Dark Souls, but it's not trying to replicate the experience. It's it's own beast, with its own pleasures, it's own style and it's own problems. I don't think the game is superficial, just because it's doing something different and more immediate with the ideas.

[The Boston Crab]

In fairness, I'm only a handful of hours into it so my comparison is unfair with the world building and NPCs. I probably put a hundred hours into Dark Souls before I even knew there was anything else going on. I think it just reminds me a bit too much of Shantae and my self-diagnosed ADHD means I get a bit impatient waiting for the hook. I don't think 'hmm, how will I ever get across there?!', I just think 'hnngh, why don't they just give me the swimming or wall jumping or double dash or whatever they're going to cough up at some arbitrary point?' It's a broader issue I have with the genre.

[Kelvin]

Yeah, I can understand that. I'm not a big fan of Metroidvanias, in general*. Too much backtracking and too easy to get lost. It's a genre with an in built pacing problem much of the time.

*Which is odd, when the original Metroid Prime would be in the running for my favourite game of all time.     

[Moribunderast]

I've recently returned to this game after taking a long break when I couldn't get past a boss. Now that I'm playing again, I've got to say this may be one of my biggest gaming disappointments in recent times. It's almost an absolute classic but just has enough little annoyances that hold it back. I love the art-style, the platforming feels good most of the time and the combat, whilst not perfect (does dive-bombing work regularly for anyone? I've stopped even trying) can be immensely satisfying when it all comes together. But as mentioned by others in this thread, the backtracking is just insufferable. The reason I stopped playing last time was not solely because I couldn't beat a boss - it was because I had to travel for five minutes back to the boss whenever I failed against it. I just don't have the time for that and it's an issue I've come across with quite a few games that take their cues from Dark Souls (and Dark Souls, itself.) I don't think anybody can give me a good reason why save-points shouldn't be right outside the door of a boss fight. If you've proven you can get there, it's unnecessary padding and arbitrarily adding difficulty to force you to redo it again and again just so you can try and beat a boss.

I'm running into this problem again with Hollow Knight. Love exploring, unlocking the map, moving forward in the game, but I'm constantly taken out of it if I die (usually in an unexpected boss fight or mini-boss thing) and am shunted back halfway across the map. In a game that plopped me back next to the boss area, I'd happily take on a fucker over and over again until I beat them - in Hollow Knight and games that plonk you ages away from where you need to be, I try twice and then can't be fucked because the risk of spending time backtracking through the map just to be sent all the way back if you die in a boss fight just seems like a waste of time.

So yeah, after returning to this game, dispatching the boss I was stuck at ages ago and then enjoying exploring new areas, I'm saddened again to find this issue rearing it's head and spoiling what is otherwise quite a lovely, challenging and atmospheric game. I really want to push through and finish it but I think it's destined to be a game I occasionally dip into and get incrementally further until the next moment I think my time's being wasted.

[madhair60]

I was bang wrong about this. Bang. It's a masterpiece. I love it so much. I can't stop thinking about it.

[The Boston Crab]

There are plenty of things I've enjoyed about it but the traversal, combat and map design are nothing more than 'fine' for me.

It's very easy to get lost because individual screens lack identity in many many cases and I find myself simply retracing previous steps over and over trying to find the next place to go, even with the map. After a bit of a break from the game, it's even worse. I'll take some responsibility for that of course but next to Dark Souls, which has a tremendous macro logic to the map and unusual, distinctive micro paths, well, I've been spoiled.

This also takes the worst thing about Dark Souls, the indefensible run ups to the bosses and borrows them for no good reason. Also, I don't like the pushback on a successful hit (yeah, I know about the charm) or the hitstun/sound effect when you take damage. I really don't like either of those things and so it makes the fairly basic combat even less appealing to me.

Partly, I'm also sick of the genre, utterly sick of it, sick to fucking death of Metroidvanias, despite having never completed a Metroid or Castlevania game or any 2D game in their wake. Iconoclasts, Shantae, Axiom Verge, good games no doubt but I'm so attuned to their beats and I'm not really a fan of 2D platforming when the focus isn't really platforming.

So, an incredible achievement from such a small team. A very well made game with stellar presentation and sound and music. It feels very solid and robust and I can understand the appeal. It just doesn't do much for me - but I can't think of anything of a similar ilk which really does.

[Kelvin]

I was bang wrong about this. Bang. It's a masterpiece. I love it so much. I can't stop thinking about it.

I had the same experience. Found it very dull at points, but it probably left a  bigger positive impression on me than any other game I played last year, beyond Smash Bros. Just a game that really gets under your skin, and feels great to control, satisfying to play, despite it's faults. 

[madhair60]

The boss battles are just so, SO good. You have so many options at your disposal, the bosses have so many attacks, but I never felt like it was unfair. I would die, sometimes over and over, and every time I'd be like "ah, I fucked that up", not "that was unavoidable, this is bullshit".

I beat this boss the other day (mid-game mechanic spoilers, possibly) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbyeZ4VWNbg and it was one of the best times I'd had in gaming for an age. Hard as shit, but it felt like a dance.

[The Boston Crab]

Glad to hear you're enjoying it so much. I definitely feel I'm missing something but as I say, the genre does very little for me so it's like trying to figure out why Wargroove bores me senseless. Just because I like some games doesn't mean it will like all 'good games'.

I'm genuinely surprised you are so into it, though, I should say. Your earlier five hour hot take now seems like it wasn't thought through at all and I have therefore lost all confidence in everything else you might say or might have said. Do you just make up your opinions for effect? I really wonder whether the minor backlash to Hollow Knight has now given you reason to pretend to like it, because that's what you're like.

If someone said what's the best trilogy in gaming Dark Souls Trilogy or Mass Effect Trilogy, you would probably say The Journey from FIFA 17-19.

[madhair60]

Jak trilogy mate.

[madhair60]

Finished this. Belter.

[The Boston Crab]

Is it better than Espgaluda 2?

[Kelvin]

Finished this. Belter.

107% it mate. That's what the pros do.