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Anyone had any success of converting people out of horrid Youtubers?

Started by TrenterPercenter, June 17, 2018, 03:04:57 PM

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TrenterPercenter

Got a mate who I am really worried about, he is miserable, has got clear angry issues and has quite few stressful things going in his life. 

Meeting up with him again after 6 months he almost instantly wanted me to 'define what alt-right' was i.e. as it doesn't exist and furthermore that it is wrong to call Jordan Peterson alt-right (not sure why I was being accused of saying this but it must be out there on the Youtubes).

Several hours were then spent with him telling me (quite angrily) that Peterson is actually really good it's just the "extreme left" SJWs that are smearing him, freedom of speech is more important than anything else, that the UK is sleep walking into a Communist-Nazi state because of PC and positive discrimination and most disconcerting that women are no longer oppressed and when they were oppressed before it was simply nature taking its course.

I seriously think he needs help and I've asked him to consider speaking to a professional. It in his character to get very angry and lose control, however this is all pretty 'normal' youtubey stuff now isn't it?   Thing is im quite exhausted having these conversations with people, it's miserable, my friend seems to get something out of being 'enlightened' by Peterson but it's a miserable world to live in as it's based on hating some made up enemy (that he claims is real due to some videos of American kids mocking professors).  It is a really weird mix of fear, angry and faux intellectualism which seemed to come done to him being able to say things assertively like "It's complete nonsense" (re: the gender pay gap).

He is a 40yr old man not some teenage kid btw.

Anyone got any tips/advice or similar experiences?

Mr_Simnock

Don't waste another second of your life hanging around such human detritus, spend it with people who are actually on planet earth

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Mr_Simnock on June 17, 2018, 03:17:14 PM
Don't waste another second of your life hanging around such human detritus, spend it with people who are actually on planet earth

You know I really was thinking this today as i've had enough trying to stop people being idiots.  But I am concerned about him, he isn't this type of person naturally but this stuff seems to have resonated with him.

I got somewhere with him when I said I understand and sympathise that male mental health has been atrocious in history and this gap is being filled by Peterson (he seemed to listen at least). 

I find it fascinating that somehow the economics of inequality that affect 'low status males' as Peterson says are all the fault of the left and Marxists?!


Funcrusher

Yeah, just tell him he's a cunt and write him off. I think that's the recommended procedure.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on June 17, 2018, 03:04:57 PM
Thing is im quite exhausted having these conversations with people

I know what you mean, but he's your friend and you are good at having these conversations, so it's worth persisting, I reckon.

That said, I have four friends who are variously a flat-earther, a UKIP voter, a libertarian and an anti-SJW type. I have little or no success with changing any of their opinions.

greenman

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on June 17, 2018, 03:44:03 PM
I know what you mean, but he's your friend and you are good at having these conversations, so it's worth persisting, I reckon.

If you do then honestly abusing him isn't likely to have any positive effect, generally much better to push an alternative view that presents a more realistic outline of negative forces for people in his kind of position, people are a hell of a lot more likely to change their positions if they can do it whilst saving face.

Funcrusher

The gender pay gap basically is nonsense. You can believe that and not be on the alt-Right.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: greenman on June 17, 2018, 03:45:56 PM
If you do then honestly abusing him isn't likely to have any positive effect, generally much better to push an alternative view that presents a more realistic outline of negative forces for people in his kind of position, people are a hell of a lot more likely to change their positions if they can do it whilst saving face.

True that. The anti-SJW type I mentioned has finally seen the light on Sargon of Akkad, at least.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Funcrusher on June 17, 2018, 03:48:51 PM
The gender pay gap basically is nonsense. You can believe that and not be on the alt-Right.

Yes, you can believe it's nonsense without being on the alt-right, but it's still true.

Funcrusher



manticore

I think it's best to concentrate on talking about the person's fundamental needs and desires, which is after all what it's all about. What kind of life do you actually want? What kind of relationships with other people? What kind of world?

Funcrusher

Quote from: manticore on June 17, 2018, 04:41:49 PM
I think it's best to concentrate on talking about the person's fundamental needs and desires, which is after all what it's all about. What kind of life do you actually want? What kind of relationships with other people? What kind of world?

Very true, which is why the likes Corbyn and Bernie Sanders accrue some popular support, whereas puritanical, check your privilege identity politickers have done a good deal of harm to the perception of the left.

Kelvin

I love all these people telling you to just instantly sack him off, when he's obviously a friend, going through a load of shit, and presumably has good qualities to go alongside these issues.

It is possible to change a person's outlook, to varying extents, and over time, although probably in conjunction with other things leading them that way, as well. Perhaps try to persuade him over time, and without patroinisng or instantly dismissing everything he says, but finding common ground that can be built upon. Failing that, or if you want to retain your friendship, but can't be arsed with all this stuff, maybe just suggest you avoid the topic of politics altogether moving forward. The latter is how I get by with several of my friends, nowadays - and the vast majority of the time, it's perfectly effective and never intrudes on our time together.

I'll add that changing a person's opinions relies on them being receptive to debate, and genuinely interested in the arguments. If a person is combative or defensive when these subjects are raised, the chances are you won't be able to change their views. You might even make them dig their heels in even more.

Steven

Quote from: Kelvin on June 17, 2018, 04:54:24 PM
It is possible to change a person's outlook, to varying extents, and over time, although probably in conjunction with other things leading them that way, as well.


Funcrusher

Quote from: Kelvin on June 17, 2018, 04:54:24 PM
I love all these people telling you to just instantly sack him off, when he's obviously a friend, going through a load of shit, and presumably has good qualities to go alongside these issues.

It is possible to change a person's outlook, to varying extents, and over time, although probably in conjunction with other things leading them that way, as well. Perhaps try to persuade him over time, and without patroinisng or instantly dismissing everything he says, but finding common ground that can be built upon. Failing that, or if you want to retain your friendship, but can't be arsed with all this stuff, maybe just suggest you avoid the topic of politics altogether moving forward. The latter is how I get by with several of my friends, nowadays - and the vast majority of the time, it's perfectly effective and never intrudes on our time together.

I'll add that changing a person's opinions relies on them being receptive to debate, and genuinely interested in the arguments. If a person is combative or defensive when these subjects are raised, the chances are you won't be able to change their views. You might even make them dig their heels in even more.

Good post. I follow a vegan YouTuber called UnnaturalVegan, although I'm not even vegetarian, just because she's an interesting and amusing commentator. She's always very strongly against vegans who call non-vegans murderers or whatever as her view is that engaging is the best way of promoting the cause.

Johnny Yesno


Kelvin


Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Funcrusher on June 17, 2018, 05:04:33 PM
I follow a vegan YouTuber called UnnaturalVegan, although I'm not even vegetarian, just because she's an interesting and amusing commentator. She's always very strongly against vegans who call non-vegans murderers or whatever as her view is that engaging is the best way of promoting the cause.

My ex-partner was vegan and she used to sometimes mention the Vegan Police back home. They'd give other vegans a hard time if they ate something with honey in it and whatnot. However, I've never met the kind of vegan you're referring to here. In my experience, they've always been loath to bring it up unless it is necessary, mostly to avoid the attentions of meat-eaters out to make a point.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Kelvin on June 17, 2018, 05:28:47 PM
2 actually, but the phrasing was a wee bit hyperbolic, probably.

Hyperbolic? I think you'll find it was ironic.

So, 1 then.

Edit: Oh, I see what you mean: Your phrasing was hyperbolic. Just a wee bit.

Still 1.

TrenterPercenter

See this was the thing, my mate was essentially, looking at me in aggressive distaste and saying you don't surely believe in the gender pay gap?

Forgetting the pay gap for the moment it struck me that really it is more about 'being intelligent' in some way which I suppose garners some status back for these Peterson acolytes and reflects the shit stream that is Youtube.

With the pay gap he reeled off that Cathy Newman interview and the term multivariate analysis.  Now I doubt my mate knows anything about modelling, I do because I am an academic, he didn't understand that when I said multivariate regression it was the same thing and as soon as it looked as though I might shed some light on it (which I probably was going to as most things in social sciences are multi-factorial) the tact changed.

Made me think why the fuck are people interested in multivariate analysis all of a sudden?  Is the only context that lay people would learn (or at least regurgitate) multivariate analysis is one which they believe shows there is equality between sexes.

Another fascinating thing was his anger at the victim culture that 3rd wave feminism has brought about......fascinating because this is someone playing the victim of some hard left conspiracy to kill free speech in its sleep! 

Again I got through to him a little bit here by simply saying I know it must feel like everyone is looking after women and BMEs but who is looking out for you? and trying to explain that it is because of how society has been oppressive to women and minorities they have had to band together to....as Peterson would agree surely...survive.  Sadly I think there are lots of disaffected white males out with unmet needs, Peterson is tapping into this.

Kelvin

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on June 17, 2018, 05:32:34 PM
Hyperbolic? I think you'll find it was ironic.

So, 1 then.

Edit: Oh, I see what you mean: Your phrasing was hyperbolic. Just a wee bit.

Still 1.


Funcrusher and Mr Simnock both suggested Trenter end the friendship.

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Kelvin on June 17, 2018, 05:35:16 PM
Funcrusher and Mr Simnock both suggested Trenter end the friendship.

Funcrusher was clearly taking the piss.

Therefore 'All these people' = 1.

However, I've just remembered this:



Boy, have I got egg on my face.

manticore

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on June 17, 2018, 05:33:09 PM
Sadly I think there are lots of disaffected white males out with unmet needs, Peterson is tapping into this.

Exactly, so what one has to address is what those needs are, and how they might best be fulfilled. Your friend is finding 'solutions' to his unhappiness that won't actually make him happier at all. That's what he has to understand.

Funcrusher

Quote from: Kelvin on June 17, 2018, 05:35:16 PM
Funcrusher and Mr Simnock both suggested Trenter end the friendship.

I was indeed taking the piss.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Kelvin on June 17, 2018, 05:35:16 PM
Funcrusher and Mr Simnock both suggested Trenter end the friendship.

I also had these thoughts to be honest - it's because I think there are genuine arguments and legitimate concerns to be had about free speech, i want to be able to discuss them with him but his Peterson obsession mean it is all through the prism of Peterson vs the world.

I just wonder if there are any online resources to help people with this stuff? as it is very culty and similar in the way religions often target vulnerable people on some rational thread and then take them onto more ridiculous thoughts.

Peterson is clearly targeting "low status men" in same way your PUAs do.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: manticore on June 17, 2018, 05:40:42 PM
Exactly, so what one has to address is what those needs are, and how they might best be fulfilled. Your friend is finding 'solutions' to his unhappiness that won't actually make him happier at all. That's what he has to understand.

Yes.  Exactly this.

rue the polywhirl

Maybe it's the OP who needs to see a professional - a Dr Peterson perhaps - to help him get over these issues he's having with his friend. I reckon if you've had enough of debating or challenging his views the next best thing is to encourage him to start his own YouTube channel of his philosophical musings so the views can either flourish or fall.

Funcrusher

Quote from: manticore on June 17, 2018, 05:40:42 PM
Exactly, so what one has to address is what those needs are, and how they might best be fulfilled. Your friend is finding 'solutions' to his unhappiness that won't actually make him happier at all. That's what he has to understand.

Yes, this. But do we not have to understand what his needs are, and that if we think that those needs are legitimate and that the left can and should meet those needs to whatever extent and in whatever ways we should find ways to communicate this? Preferably not involving further lectures about straight, white male privilege.

Kelvin

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on June 17, 2018, 05:38:26 PM
Funcrusher was clearly taking the piss.

Therefore 'All these people' = 1.

However, I've just remembered this:



Boy, have I got egg on my face.

Fucking hell. Alright. I've already admitted I could have phrased that line better, although I did genuinely think Funcrusher was serious. A word in my post was badly chosen. I'll have my apology on your desk by Monday.