Anyone had any success of converting people out of horrid Youtubers?

[petril]

help him out with small things. little bit of company doing something that's nothing to do with Peterson or the ideological stuff. Small, tangible practical things. Not sure what you're or his life is like to suggest specifics, but the sort of thing that he'll remember as something positive that directly involves him. Might be something as small as hanging out, but make sure it revolves around doing a thing that's got a positive. It'll stick more than ideological talk, or the reactionary splatter from someone who's not going to be in a position to acknowledge him directly, at all.

[TrenterPercenter]

Maybe it's the OP who needs to see a professional - a Dr Peterson perhaps - to help him get over these issues he's having with his friend. I reckon if you've had enough of debating or challenging his views the next best thing is to encourage him to start his own YouTube channel of his philosophical musings so the views can either flourish or fall.

I am a professional and so is my partner, but thanks all the same.

[Johnny Yesno]

I'll have my apology on your desk by Monday.

Make sure it's from all of you.

I am a professional and so is my partner, but thanks all the same.

When he said 'see a professional', I don't think he meant have a relationship with one.

[TrenterPercenter]

help him out with small things. little bit of company doing something that's nothing to do with Peterson or the ideological stuff. Small, tangible practical things. Not sure what you're or his life is like to suggest specifics, but the sort of thing that he'll remember as something positive that directly involves him. Might be something as small as hanging out, but make sure it revolves around doing a thing that's got a positive. It'll stick more than ideological talk, or the reactionary splatter from someone who's not going to be in a position to acknowledge him directly, at all.

Again sage advice.  Appealing to the emotional self is key - i did try and do this by taking him out last night but he got horrendously drunk and nearly tried to fight me when I took his car keys off him after he decided people were talking about him (they weren't) and was going to drive back to London (this is someone that could barely stand up).  He was then shouting at me it's "IT'S MY LIBERTY TO DRIVE MY CAR IF I WANT, IT IS MY FREEWILL AND YOU HAVE NO RIGHT STOP MY FREEWILL"

Which is direct Peterson schtick......weirdly another friend who has some sympathies with this stuff in the past text me this morning to say that he can see how people like Peterson are poisonous.

[Funcrusher]

I just wonder if there are any online resources to help people with this stuff?

No, I don't think there's anything, and suggesting there should be makes you an MRA. Current advice seems to be that your problems can be solved by being a better feminist ally, checking your privilege, stopping being a rapist etc. And Jordan Peterson's popularity inexplicably continues to rise...

[TrenterPercenter]

No, I don't think there's anything, and suggesting there should be makes you an MRA. Current advice seems to be that your problems can be solved by being a better feminist ally, checking your privilege, stopping being a rapist etc. And Jordan Peterson's popularity inexplicably continues to rise...

Maybe we can make something.  Seems a better use of energy than continually moaning about feminism et al.

I was doing some work on male mental health a while back but had to cease do to other work commitments.

[Z]

The only way to really help these people is try to help support ways in which people like them won't become so socially isolated that these shits on youtube become their substitute for a social life. Give them something more enjoyable than a pity party to be involved in.

Focusing on individual ones is potentially a bit of a fools errand, some people are a lot more difficult to help than others.

[Johnny Yesno]

help him out with small things. little bit of company doing something that's nothing to do with Peterson or the ideological stuff. Small, tangible practical things. Not sure what you're or his life is like to suggest specifics, but the sort of thing that he'll remember as something positive that directly involves him. Might be something as small as hanging out, but make sure it revolves around doing a thing that's got a positive. It'll stick more than ideological talk, or the reactionary splatter from someone who's not going to be in a position to acknowledge him directly, at all.

Sounds fair enough in this instance.

On the other hand, my Ukip-voting friend is doing just fine, really, but considers herself to be part of the 'squeezed middle'. I like her very much on a personal level, and she has been very helpful and supportive to me. However, her politics are poison. When she makes excuses for homelessness, it makes me think of those dolls that got hacked to make them swear. It's hard-hearted and cold, the just world hypothesis writ large.

[Cuellar]

I had a 'good' friend who always made odd comments regarding women and things like that but always identified himself as left-wing and I always thought he was saying these things to shock.

Lived in different cities so didn't see him much but he'd occasionally text and we'd meet up.

A few years ago he cropped up on one of those 'Reggie Yates meets...' things, where Reggie had gone to one of those 'men's rights' seminars run by a genuine rapist (some American guy who used to be quite well known but whose name escapes me). Reg said 'unsurprisingly we couldn't find anyone who would agree to be interviewed on camera', but then lo and behold, he DOES find two guys, and one of them is my old friend!

Since then I've just completely stopped answering texts/messages. Sounds harsh but it's a pretty repulsive world for someone to get involved in, so fuck him.

[Large Noise]

I can see why Peterson appeals to people. I'm too far gone on the old socialism, and too sympathetic to a lot of what he opposes, to take him seriously. But that brand of "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore" social commentary he offers can definitely be cathartic. If you're someone who feels there's no such thing as society (and even if there is you're not part of it) the entertainment value of him putting the shitters up some liberal journalists outweighs any anxiety you might have as to the damage his message could cause.

If you spend too much time online, reading liberal/left commentators can feel a bit like looking in at a party you're not invited to. It's a bunch of people being conspicuously empathetic and kind. And there might not be anyone in your life extending that sort of attitude to you on a personal level. So there's part of you that feels like it's all a sham, that people are actually much more venal and selfish than everyone's letting on. And someone like Jordan Peterson comes along and says you're correct, which makes you feel better.

Even stuff like his self-help advice. I don't think many men actually follow that or find it practically useful, they just like to hear someone imply that what people really respect is status, power, and wealth. So you can stop worrying and getting confused about what matters in life. Society sends mixed messages as to how we should view hierarchy. On the one hand, it's socially unacceptable to look down on the poor/disadvantaged. On the other, we operate an economic system that does so constantly. Peterson resolves the contradiction by saying that the former is a sham and you should feel free to disregard it. And that feels nice, it's a weight off. Even if you're at the bottom of the heap and Peterson's effectively preaching that you should stay there, at least he's letting you off with having to give a fuck about anyone else. The left won't help you*, but they will ask you to give a shit about #MeToo or whatever while nobody wants to fuck you and you can't afford to go on holiday.

*Because the right has an entire political apparatus set up to ensure that they can't. Which Peterson turns a blind eye to despite claiming to be a serious intellectual. This is my fundamental gripe with him. Anyone who can take conservatism seriously and not see that it's just apologism for the wealthy is a moron.

[bgmnts]

Am I the only miserable, sexually frustrated white man who hasnt turned to the alt-right?

[Funcrusher]

Am I the only miserable, sexually frustrated white man who hasnt turned to the alt-right?

No, some have found solace on comedy forums.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

The most usual effective tactics are to frame your counter argument in a way that doesn't make him feel cheapened or foolish. At the very least, start by conceding that you 'can understand how you reached this view', but don't necessarily go into detail from the get go.

When exploring views, discover then talk around any rigid sticking points by finding the nearest common ground or personal view that is not in line with any adopted political philosophy - there is nearly always a few. eg. finding flaws and personal contradictions in people's adoption of libertarian philosophy is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Use the common ground or inconsistency by finding a point of logic that is not spurious and then apply it as a point of principle and reason to counter any bollocks he believes.

Make it personal, discuss his family and their needs, use hypothetical scenarios involving them to drive the point home.

If that doesn't work subtly emphasise the importance of aspects of humanism and how nearly all societies are at their most functional when they are a pluralistic, dynamic entity with checks and balances and if not a narrow gap between rich and poor then fluid social mobility. The only other ones that exist/existed and meet the same markers involve/involved slavery.

[The Boston Crab]

I'd be inclined to feel a bit sorry for the miserable twat, give him a couple of chances to talk it through with a respectful tone and if he chooses his comfort blanket over my own dose of empathetic reality grounded in years of friendship, I'd leave him to his adult choices. I've got a great mate who turned to the booze and became a bit of a deluded self-pitying fantasist, always trying to compete with me. I spoke to him a few more times and he failed to shake off his tone so I cut him off. If you're my friend and you don't have my best interests at heart, or your own, I can't spare the time. People change.

[Nice Relaxing Poo]

Does your friend post here under the name Paulie Walnuts?

[Danger Man]

My friend keeps watching videos where he's encouraged to be self-disciplined, take responsibility for his actions and learn to stand on his own feet.

Is there any way I can save him?

[Funcrusher]

My friend keeps watching videos where he's encouraged to be self-disciplined, take responsibility for his actions and learn to stand on his own feet.

Is there any way I can save him?

If he doesn't believe in the wage gap he's beyond saving.

[Johnny Yesno]

I can see why Peterson appeals to people. I'm too far gone on the old socialism, and too sympathetic to a lot of what he opposes, to take him seriously. But that brand of "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore" social commentary he offers can definitely be cathartic. If you're someone who feels there's no such thing as society (and even if there is you're not part of it) the entertainment value of him putting the shitters up some liberal journalists outweighs any anxiety you might have as to the damage his message could cause.

If you spend too much time online, reading liberal/left commentators can feel a bit like looking in at a party you're not invited to. It's a bunch of people being conspicuously empathetic and kind. And there might not be anyone in your life extending that sort of attitude to you on a personal level. So there's part of you that feels like it's all a sham, that people are actually much more venal and selfish than everyone's letting on. And someone like Jordan Peterson comes along and says you're correct, which makes you feel better.

Even stuff like his self-help advice. I don't think many men actually follow that or find it practically useful, they just like to hear someone imply that what people really respect is status, power, and wealth. So you can stop worrying and getting confused about what matters in life. Society sends mixed messages as to how we should view hierarchy. On the one hand, it's socially unacceptable to look down on the poor/disadvantaged. On the other, we operate an economic system that does so constantly. Peterson resolves the contradiction by saying that the former is a sham and you should feel free to disregard it. And that feels nice, it's a weight off. Even if you're at the bottom of the heap and Peterson's effectively preaching that you should stay there, at least he's letting you off with having to give a fuck about anyone else. The left won't help you*, but they will ask you to give a shit about #MeToo or whatever while nobody wants to fuck you and you can't afford to go on holiday.

*Because the right has an entire political apparatus set up to ensure that they can't. Which Peterson turns a blind eye to despite claiming to be a serious intellectual. This is my fundamental gripe with him. Anyone who can take conservatism seriously and not see that it's just apologism for the wealthy is a moron.

Good post. If Adam Curtis has nailed one thing, it's that people don't know what to believe any more, leaving them feeling helpless, and meaning there's a vacuum for the likes of Peterson to fill.

Am I the only miserable, sexually frustrated white man who hasnt turned to the alt-right?

I can assure you you're not.

[marquis_de_sad]

My friend keeps watching videos where he's encouraged to be self-disciplined, take responsibility for his actions and learn to stand on his own feet.

Is there any way I can save him?

My friend watches videos that say ancient Chinese people knew about the DNA double helix and that women wear high heels to tilt up their pelvis. Is there any way I can join his cult?

[Cloud]

It's very, very easy and very, very common to get sucked into that Youtube feedback loop bubble thing.  Been there done that.  Though I never really liked Sargon, as sneering cunts with a chip on their shoulder are an automatic turn-off, but the more well spoken, reasonable seeming people are another story.

If it helps, what began to unravel it for me was to reaffirm what "free speech" is.  The right to say things, e.g. in opposition to your government, IN PUBLIC without getting jailed (or worse).  And to pay close attention to who is bleating about free speech, what they actually mean by it (the right to a platform, the right not to be banned from Twitter etc) and what they want to use it for (it's always about the right to be racist or sexist or Muslimphobe etc without being called a cunt)

If I'm honest, I'm still struggling to see Jordan Peterson as evil as others here do.  I really don't think he's alt-right.  His fanbase is largely alt-right, but I'm not convinced he himself is, he's just a conservative and a believer in individual responsibility and all that conservative stuff, and perhaps a useful voice in the alt-right game despite not being that way himself.  I still need a bit of convincing. Someone has to stand up for the discouraged male NEET crowd and help them to find a sense of purpose and I honestly think his heart is in the right place on that subject.   
There is however a weak point worth exploring: he does know some stuff (a ton of psychology) and expresses a lot of views, ideas and opinions that I consider reasonable (as far as I recall.  I'm now wondering how to respond to "oh, examples?") BUT it's like it's cut with bullshit, and like any drug, what it's cut with can be blended in and hard to detect.  This makes it look like because he's seemingly a good authority on psychology he must therefore be a good authority on other semi-related subjects.  Probably the most alarming being the obvious misinterpretation / misrepresentation of Canada's Bill C-16 which I've actually read (here you go https://www.parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/42-1/bill/C-16/first-reading) and as far as I can see it says precisely fuck all about forcing people to call others ze and zey or whatever like he says in all his rants about compelled speech.  It just adds gender identity to the already existing list of protected groups where you can't discriminate (e.g. deny a job) on those grounds.   If you were to convince me he has evil motivations, the question of "why is he still misinterpreting C-16 so incredibly badly?" would be a good place to start.

Dave Rubin has probably been a bigger turnaround for me.  That just basically took realising that he plays the whole "I like to hear all opinions and ideas" card without actually doing so - take a look at who he invites for interviews.  Is it ever anyone on the left?  No, it's just every right wing wanker in existence from Katie Hopkins to Milo Wotsisface and all the useful "well meaning" idiots who fell into the bubble and decided to speak out about it, like that guy who got fired from Google.  If anyone is in the news for some perceived injustice at the hands of the left, you can guarantee that he'll be sat in front of Rubin less than a week later.  And that's when you realise that "free speech" is just really code for "you should pay attention to bigots and not call them bigots any more" and has precisely nothing to do with the free and equal exchange of ideas as they always like to say it is.  At best, being the most charitable about him (to "steel man" him as they say on LBC), I'd call him a devil's advocate.  And the devil has enough of those.

Be patient and help them to fact check and really think about the motivations of who they're following and just why all their fans seem to be raving alt-right nutjobs.  People believe any shit they hear on the internet, and they've been fooled into simply believing the opposite because "we're critical thinkers, we look at the facts unlike those guys on the left and this has enlightened us such that we now know the liberal lies" while *still* not doing any critical thinking or fact checking and just blindly believing those on the right instead.  The call to think critically and fact check is a good one, it's just that it's been intercepted by people who effectively say "but don't worry, I'm doing the critical thinking and fact checking for you, and you'll never guess what lies the leftist establishment are telling you now!" and people need to realise this and put in the effort they were intending to in the first place.

One thing I've noticed more and more is imagery.  Look at some of those videos, note how they're all surrounded with pictures of brains and philosophers and stuff.  "Believe us, we're the thinkers.  Or we say we are."

[garbed_attic]

I've definitely struggled staying close to someone I used to play tabletop games with who is increasingly into Peterson... mostly because I just don't think he likes women very much. He's written a paper recently on how post-modernism and feminism have damaged family therapy, which I kind of want to read... but my Peterson-loving pastor read it and said that while he broadly agreed with its points (sigh!) he felt it was too clearly tangled up with his personal anger, so I don't know if I want to read it... it might feel odd.

I stopped seeing my Peterson-loving therapist, but at this point if I abandoned everyone I know who likes Peterson, I would literally be abandoning my brother, my pastor and my best friend!

[Twit 2]

Use Socratic irony on him. 'But why do you believe in that?', until he kills himself in a pond or smashes a shopping centre.

[Kelvin]

The only person I know who likes Peterson is actually a woman, and I had no idea who he was when she first started talking about him.

Her opening gambit was to say "I've been watching a lot of Jordan Peterson lately. I don't think you'll like him."

[newbridge]

The fact that Funcrusher claims not to be a Jordan Peterson disciple is the most shocking thing that has ever happened.

[Funcrusher]

The fact that Funcrusher claims not to be a Jordan Peterson disciple is the most shocking thing that has ever happened.

The fact that you would think this is the least shocking thing that has ever happened. It's difficult to be a disciple of someone you know almost nothing about.

[madhair60]

I have a friend who's into him. Showed me a couple of videos. My favourite was "Jordan Peterson DESTROYS feminism in front of two feminists", when all that can be realistically described as having happened was a benign chat amongst the three of them.

[ASFTSN]

Go and see Peterson's O2 event next month with your friend and Mystery Science Theatre 3000 everything. 

Actually don't do that.

[madhair60]

Go and see Peterson's O2 event next month with your friend and Mystery Science Theatre 3000 everything. 

Actually don't do that.

The tickets were bought and paid for before I got to that last sentence. I'm all aboard the truth train now. Freewwt freewwwwwt. <- Trains sound

[ASFTSN]

Dave Rubin has probably been a bigger turnaround for me.  That just basically took realising that he plays the whole "I like to hear all opinions and ideas" card without actually doing so - take a look at who he invites for interviews.

Stephen Fry is on one of his videos now.  Not that I've watched it.

[Z]

Go and see Peterson's O2 event next month with your friend and Mystery Science Theatre 3000 everything. 

Actually don't do that.

I notice facebook ads going into overdrive trying to sell me on that lately, mustn't be doing too well?