When you see a famous artist with a co-writing credit..

[Nice Relaxing Poo]

..what do normally assume their part in writing the song was? I always assume some songwriter has written the melody and arrangement and the star has just written the lyrics. For example Robbie Williams has a co-credit on all of his songs but probably has almost no musical talent.

[Nowhere Man]

Didn't someone on here say that 'Angels' was written mostly with with the help of another guy who got fobbed off with a very minimal bit of money whilst Robbie earned millions off it?

[Better Midlands]

I think often the "star" is barely involved and the cowriting credit is just part of the deal so the artist gets the royalties.

I know especially in EDM/R&B that a lot of the tracks are ghost written/produced and the DJ/famous producer/artist gives the track clout to stand out and make it a hit.

[sevendaughters]

there's definitely been a swing toward giving the named artist some credit in recent years. usually i think they get something because perhaps their voice counts as an original melodic contribution? i rarely think 'oh this person sat down with that team and worked through a piece until completion' (for some reason, possible sexism, i always think of Taylor Swift and her seemingly amazing ability to span 5 different genres).

[kilgore]

I read an article somewhere that said it's becoming standard practice for top, top performers to negotiate a writer's credit on a record.

The performer is essentially skimming an extra percentage off of the royalties for releasing the record and thereby generating massive revenue that the actual writers mightn't have seen if it was recorded by a lesser star. In these cases the performer usually contributes nothing to the composition of the song.

[DrGreggles]

Song written by a relatively unknown songwriter = complete writing royalties of no/few sales
Song written by a relatively unknown songwriter, but recorded by Beyonce* and Beyonce* receiving a token writing credit = lower percentage of writing royalties of millions of sales

Seems to have become an accepted thing, and the artist comes across as looking more creative and earn more money.

*or whoever

[Avril Lavigne]

..what do normally assume their part in writing the song was? I always assume some songwriter has written the melody and arrangement and the star has just written the lyrics. For example Robbie Williams has a co-credit on all of his songs but probably has almost no musical talent.

I remember hearing that the bassline to Trippin' was the first time Robbie actually contributed to writing the music on one of his songs, and that's one of the only tracks he's done that I quite like.

[Nice Relaxing Poo]

I remember hearing that the bassline to Trippin' was the first time Robbie actually contributed to writing the music on one of his songs, and that's one of the only tracks he's done that I quite like.

Yeah Trippin' is the only RW song I like.

[buzby]

Song written by a relatively unknown songwriter = complete writing royalties of no/few sales
Song written by a relatively unknown songwriter, but recorded by Beyonce* and Beyonce* receiving a token writing credit = lower percentage of writing royalties of millions of sales

Seems to have become an accepted thing, and the artist comes across as looking more creative and earn more money.

*or whoever

That's exactly how it works with Beyonce. Sia described the process of working on a Beyonce album in an interview prior to the release of This Is Acting:

The process is like a writing camp, essentially. She flies us all in and puts us all up. We all live in a house together — like five producers and five topline writers. She visits each room and will contribute and let us know what she's feeling and what she's not feeling. Lyrically, melodically, anything. She's very Frankenstein when she comes to songs. She'll say, "I like the verse from that. I like the pre-chorus from that. Can you try mixing it with that?" In the end, she had maybe 25 songs of mine on hold, and I was very excited to get a couple of them back.

Only one of her songs, Pretty Hurts, ended up on the album (Beyonce).  A few of the other big names like Rihanna and Adele have taken to using the 'writer's camp' method now as well.

A lot of times the somgs are already finished when they are shopped around with guide vocals for whoever buys them (and then demands a writing credit) to follow. That's certainly been the case with a lot of the hits Sia has written for other big names, as a lot of her original guide tracks have leaked online and they are usually identical to the released versions other than the singer's voice  (and even then, they often leave Sia's harmony backing vocals in the mix, like on Rihanna's Diamonds).

[Avril Lavigne]

That's exactly how it works with Beyonce. Sia described the process of working on a Beyonce album in an interview prior to the release of This Is Acting:

Wow. As a songwriter I find that process quite vom-inducing.  Maybe I'm just nuts but to me it comes off like a kind of creativity-based version of the human battery farm from The Matrix.

[Brundle-Fly]

Doesn't Simon Cowell have loads of songwriting credits on all his X Factor winners output? He literally only has to add a comma to one of the lines of the chorus and he automatically gets publishing royalties.

[a duncandisorderly]

I read an article somewhere that said it's becoming standard practice for top, top performers to negotiate a writer's credit on a record.

The performer is essentially skimming an extra percentage off of the royalties for releasing the record and thereby generating massive revenue that the actual writers mightn't have seen if it was recorded by a lesser star. In these cases the performer usually contributes nothing to the composition of the song.

"colonel" tom parker arranged for elvis to have a writing credit on "heartbreak hotel" for exactly this reason, & that was almost a million years ago. so this is nothing new. I'm not disparaging elvis, mind you, & it seems to be that the performer does bring a little magic to the song, so I'm not entirely opposed to the practice either.

[a duncandisorderly]

Doesn't Simon Cowell have loads of songwriting credits on all his X Factor winners output? He literally only has to add a comma to one of the lines of the chorus and he automatically gets publishing royalties.

but him- he's just a prize-twat.

[Brundle-Fly]

but him- he's just a prize-twat.

Yes, but a shrewd prize twat with pound signs for eyes.

[purlieu]

(for some reason, possible sexism, i always think of Taylor Swift and her seemingly amazing ability to span 5 different genres).

Reputation is the only Taylor Swift album not to feature a single track written solely by her. Her third album was written entirely by her with no co-writing credits. I'd say of all the big pop stars at the moment, she's least likely to be one of those who has her name added purely for adding an extra 'la la' or whatever.

I've noticed there are an increasing number of people whose contributions do seem genuine in pop, maybe because of the number of 'alt pop' types around. Lorde, for example, comes up with all her lyrics and melodies first, and then her producer writes the backing track around that. Foxes is similar, and Charli XCX, both of whom I believe are trained musicians.

One thing I do find interesting is that, generally, everybody who has a say in the song tends to gets a credit with pop music, unlike with a lot of rock stuff, where very often the main songwriter retains all the credit, despite the rest of the band coming up with their own rhythm pars, solos etc. So it's more respectable in that regard.

[Sebastian Cobb]

Taylor Swift is quite talented but I also get the impression she's got old school suits falling over themselves to help her make them as much money as possible. I'm basing a lot of that on her spat with Spotify and the sense she was just reading from a script.

I've also not completely ruled out the idea that she's an actual robot though.

[kngen]

Wow. As a songwriter I find that process quite vom-inducing.  Maybe I'm just nuts but to me it comes off like a kind of creativity-based version of the human battery farm from The Matrix.

I'd say that's a bit more hands-on and creative than most major pop stars ever get. I'm actually quite impressed.

[Sebastian Cobb]

Something alluded to in kill your friends was that before auto tune could polish even the worst turds it was quite common to just overdub people with session vocalists, often they wouldn't even tell the talent they were doing it.

Spector had form for that, The Crystals were touring and he was still knocking stuff out with a different line-up.

[Avril Lavigne]

I'd say that's a bit more hands-on and creative than most major pop stars ever get. I'm actually quite impressed.

Well I can't really disagree too strongly with someone who has a Husker Du avatar.

[DrGreggles]

Not sure how true this is, but I heard a rumour that Spice Girls (recording group) and Spice Girls (songwriting) were not the same people. The latter was essentially a collection of various writers and producers (plus the girls) who wrote and published their songs under that name.
The reason for this was that the initial story behind the group were that they were originally meant to be a bog standard manufactured girl band, but they rebelled and went off to do their own thing - which included writing their own songs, hence the songwriting credits showing 'Spice Girls'.
Incidentally, Melanie C did contribute quite a bit to some of the writing and was getting royally fucked over by this publishing deal, so she jumped at the chance to go solo and actually get a fair whack of the royalties.
This makes her 'Nesmith Spice'.

[Mark Steels Stockbroker]

Although Morrissey officially gets credited for the words, allegedly he does have input on the melody even though he's a non-musician I'd expect a similar thing with Robbie Williams.

Mark E.Smith's credit process is a category all by itself.

[Mark Steels Stockbroker]

In season 1 of The Sopranos Tony's mate the record producer Heshy admits he still gets royalties for 60s hits where he gave himself a songwriting credit on every black pop act he worked with.

[The Culture Bunker]

Although Morrissey officially gets credited for the words, allegedly he does have input on the melody even though he's a non-musician I'd expect a similar thing with Robbie Williams.

In the Smiths days, I gather the process worked that Marr would hand over a tape of various tracks he'd written, to which Morrissey would add words and vocal melody. Squeeze, on the other hand, worked different in that Difford handed Tilbrook a load of lyrics and the latter did the rest (perhaps excusing the ones Difford sang, like Cool for Cats).

Did read an article on the Guardian the other day where Difford said he only brings in a couple of grand a year in royalties these days, which perhaps excuses songwriters grabbing any chance to cash in while they can by sacrificing a chunk of a song to have it recorded by the current big thing.

[The Lurker]

Didn't someone on here say that 'Angels' was written mostly with with the help of another guy who got fobbed off with a very minimal bit of money whilst Robbie earned millions off it?

I remember reading about that not long ago. Just looked it up, the guy got £7,500.

https://www.independent.ie/incoming/incoming_dailyfeed/i-played-robbie-this-song-id-been-working-on-it-was-called-angels-26801044.html

[Phil_A]

Simon Cowell is notorious for wrangling songwriting credits for stuff he hasn't written, as in he goes in the studio, plays one note on a keyboard or something and then says, "There you go, I played on that recording so I get royalties."

[PaulTMA]

In the Smiths days, I gather the process worked that Marr would hand over a tape of various tracks he'd written, to which Morrissey would add words and vocal melody. Squeeze, on the other hand, worked different in that Difford handed Tilbrook a load of lyrics and the latter did the rest (perhaps excusing the ones Difford sang, like Cool for Cats).

As far as I know, the only song Difford has made any musical writing contribution was the outtake 'Ain't It Sad' which came out as a bonus track of the Cool For Cats album.  Tilbrook wrote the words for 'Sunny' on the Cradle To The Grave album and 'Rough Ride' on last year's album The Knowledge.

[buzby]

"colonel" tom parker arranged for elvis to have a writing credit on "heartbreak hotel" for exactly this reason, & that was almost a million years ago. so this is nothing new. I'm not disparaging elvis, mind you, & it seems to be that the performer does bring a little magic to the song, so I'm not entirely opposed to the practice either.

In Parker's case, i suspect it was less in Eivis' interest and more that he would be creaming off 25% (later 50%) of the royalty from that credit.

Not sure how true this is, but I heard a rumour that Spice Girls (recording group) and Spice Girls (songwriting) were not the same people. The latter was essentially a collection of various writers and producers (plus the girls) who wrote and published their songs under that name.
The reason for this was that the initial story behind the group were that they were originally meant to be a bog standard manufactured girl band, but they rebelled and went off to do their own thing - which included writing their own songs, hence the songwriting credits showing 'Spice Girls'.

Richard 'Biff' Stannard (ex-writer/producer for gay boyband 2wo Third3) and Matthew Rowe did most of the heavy lifting in the writing process (alongside Paul Wilson and Andy Watkins of Absolute) and were the main producers of the Spice Girls material. for the first two albums, and they are are all credited separately alongside 'Spice Girls' as writers.

For the third album, a wider range of producers were drafted in (LaShawn Daniels, Rodney & Fred Jerkins) and Stannard and Rowe were reduced to a single track as the Girls pursued a more up-to-date R&B sound. The co-writing credits for each song are spilt between the producers and their associated writers and amongst the 4 remaining members, and they didn't all get credits on the same songs.

Stannard and Rowe also had a successful career as remixers on the dance scene as Biff & Memphis and as part of The Immortals. Stannard went on to form a new production and management groups called Biffco, working on Mel C, Mel B and Emma Bunton's solo albums, and managing, co-writing and co-producing Hurts (after working with the Hutchcraft brothers in their previous band Daggers),

[Keebleman]

Elvis was credited as a writer only on his early hits (eg Love Me Tender, Heartbreak Hotel, All Shook Up).  Don't know why it stopped after that, but I can't imagine the Colonel had an attack of conscience.

I always look at the writing credits of a record even if I have no intention of buying it, and if the artist is always credited but never on his/her/their own (except when it's a clear division of labour such as John/Taupin), then I assume it's a situation akin to Elvis in the 50s.

But of course it all begs the question of what is 'songwriting' these days?  Over the last fifty years the once clearly demarcated bounderies between performer, lyricist, composer, arranger and producer have blurred almost into irrelevance. 

[Brundle-Fly]

Simon Cowell is notorious for wrangling songwriting credits for stuff he hasn't written, as in he goes in the studio, plays one note on a keyboard or something and then says, "There you go, I played on that recording so I get royalties."

I said much the same yesterday, Phil. I do think we are all gradually turning senile on CAB.

[The Culture Bunker]

As far as I know, the only song Difford has made any musical writing contribution was the outtake 'Ain't It Sad' which came out as a bonus track of the Cool For Cats album.  Tilbrook wrote the words for 'Sunny' on the Cradle To The Grave album and 'Rough Ride' on last year's album The Knowledge.

I did suspect that was the case, but thought I best put in that "maybe" clause in case a big Squeeze fan was reading!