Six white Oxbridge blokes

[biggytitbo]

If you're going to assemble a team now it's not going to be six Oxbridge white blokes.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/06/19/oxbridge-white-blokes-like-monty-python-have-had-day-says-bbc/

The head of BBC comedy made this apparent slight against Monty Python in a recent interview, and it caused a bit of nontroversy and a backlash, including this from John Cleese-



To me 'diversity' is absolutely the least of the problems with british comedy right now. The Pythons were comic geniuses, whereas the BBC hasn't produced a sketch show, black, white, male or female, that was any good in 20 years.

I think the problem is not whether the members are black, white, male, female, posh or working class, as they have tried virtually every combo imaginable and yet they've all being shit for at least an entire comedy generation.

Why is it really that sketch comedy (and arguably British tv comedy full stop) is dead?

[doppelkorn]

Have you not heard of Man's Not Hot?

[Danger Man]

Have The Pin died in vain?

[rasta-spouse]

Why is it really that sketch comedy (and arguably British tv comedy full stop) is dead?

That's a something I've been wondering. Purely subjective, but it always felt like in the late nineties when sketch comedy was getting tediously naturalistic and boiled down to the minimal (Big Train, Smack the Pony etc.), Ricky Gervais' The Office came along and made everyone embarassed and nervous about making anything overtly "ha-ha" and "this is comedy". It always seemed like an attitudinal extinction event. There was Little Britain during that period, yes. So that's the 2000s covered.

I try to keep a finger on the pulse with sketch comedy. I've seen The Pin, The Beta Males, and Daphne etc. and it's pretty poor stuff. The problem is unlike a career at the Foreign Office comedy isn't a graduate job. The comedians of the past were genuine one-offs who seemingly had innate talent and something real to offer. The comedians of 2018 have seen a few box sets and all of Stewart Lee's stuff and are having a good try at it, but they're not the real deal. And the net result is nothing groundbreakingly novel enough to put on tv. 

Also from a tv producer's point of view it doesn't make sense to put sketch on tv. It's less work to do a panel show and have five comics and Thomas K. Shitbrick from Reality Fuckfest who'll most definitely draw a bigger demographic. They have whole departments now that monitor tweets during broadcasts, so that's a clue.

I did enjoy the work of Jigsaw though, they were a bit Python with a modern twist, but they're no longer going I hear.

[RedRevolver]

Firstly, if you're going to insult Limmy, be gone with you.

Second of all, for some reason no one here seems to like it (I don't think) but Monkey Dust will always be my favourite sketch show/animated show.

I've been thinking of a lot of jokes that would work better as sketches than stand up recently. But I think good sketch shows need to come from finding good sketch groups...and not fairly boring groups of friends.

How would one go about finding a good comedy troupe to get behind, anyway?

[Glebe]

I think there's to many of 'em in comedy.

Send 'em back.

[Ferris]

I think there's to many of 'em in comedy.

Send 'em back.

We're all thinkin' it.

[Cuellar]

Cowards was good (three white Oxbridge blokes and a Tim Key)

Limmy is great (one white ned)

[biggytitbo]

Firstly, if you're going to insult Limmy, be gone with you.

Second of all, for some reason no one here seems to like it (I don't think) but Monkey Dust will always be my favourite sketch show/animated show.

I liked that too but even that was 15 years ago.

[Theremin]

There's definitely a homogeneity to TV Comedy at the moment. Part of that comes from unadventurous commissioning, but it also hugely comes from the lack of diversity in people who are given opportunities.

Check out BBC3's recent online content and pilots over the past couple of years - regardless of whether or not you personally like it - you'll see they have a brilliantly broad selection of faces, personalities and approaches. That all comes from hoovering up a wider variety of new talent from different backgrounds.

That approach doesn't even hurt anyone else.

The Oxbridge blokes of the future will be fine, they always are. The social padding for them to be successful is already in place.

[checkoutgirl]

Firstly, if you're going to insult Limmy, be gone with you.

Second of all, for some reason no one here seems to like it (I don't think) but Monkey Dust will always be my favourite sketch show/animated show.

Limmy was my first thought because that's less than 10 years ago, never mind 20 (biggy). I liked Monkey Dust but that one ended 13 years ago so not a great argument for the health of current sketch comedy.

Little Britain is a great example of the death of British sketch comedy. Not because it existed but because it got 3 series. The second series was quite bad but apparently not bad enough to prevent a third series which was an atrocity, grotesque humour replacing any last hint of an idea.

Stuff like Spoons, Man Stroke Woman, Smack the Pony, The Sketch Show, Noel Fielding's Luxury and Tramadol Nights are very good exhibits for the prosecution. Just middle of the road to downright terrible.

Burnistoun, Mitchell and Webb Look and Cardinal Burns were okay. And let's not forget there was shite like Lenny Henry about in the eighties so there's always going to be trash on the telly.

It's hard to deny that sketch comedy in Britain is going through a rough patch and yer Mock the Weeks and yer McIntyre Roadshows and yer Russell Howard's Newses making big money and getting big audiences are not going to do much to improve the situation. Also the fragmentation of the media and a basic lack of talent could also contribute. I think the 1990s was the last great decade for sketch comedy and we will probably never see its like again. There will be pockets of decent stuff here and there but the 90s will be looked back on as a silver age of sketch comedy with the 60/70s being the golden age. Or vice versa depending on your taste.

[checkoutgirl]

There's definitely a homogeneity to TV Comedy at the moment. Part of that comes from unadventurous commissioning,

I remember Stewart Lee or maybe Richard Herring saying executives saying things like "We want a comedy set in a bookies" or "We don't want a show with two men as the main characters." This kind of thinking is really wrong because it doesn't matter the setting or premise but the ideas within. So you might get someone going "We don't want Oxbridge white males" which is mad if that is the best on offer at the time.

[Brundle-Fly]

They also used to say "can we get Johnny Vaughan in it?". How times have changed.

[New Jack]

I'm a comedy meritocracist, in that the only comedians I want have to be funny

I'm obviously excluded myself. And you can't spell 'comedy meritocracist' without 'eco-trim comedy racist'

[thenoise]

I can't read the rest of that article, and certainly can't be arsed to look up the source interview, but I don't think Mr BBC dude was saying Monty Python weren't original at the time.  Just that he doesn't want this generation's comedies to be the same sort of thing, which seems fair enough.  Although obviously I'll judge his commissioning policies by the quality of whatever comes out over the next few years, not on whether he is ticking the correct boxes.

[thenoise]

Won't they just hire a few more posh white women and call it 'diversity'?  After all, being in the Cambridge footlights never gave the same kind of career boost to eg Emma Thompson, Olivia Coleman, Mel and Sue, Morwenna Banks, Lucy Montgomery, Sandi Toksvig, Sophie Winkleman...

[thenoise]

Best UK sketch comedy show of recent years:




Ethnic minorities, check, women, check, I think one or two of them might even be state educated.

[rasta-spouse]

Would an edgy evening sketch show look out of place on BBC1 or BBC2 these days? They're more likely to send a comic and his mum on a travel show.

I understand there's Tracey Breaks the News, I haven't seen it but I'm guessing its shit. From the still images it looks like a decently budgeted show that's as MOR as fuck. But its got a glossy look that dullards in the home counties might mistake for sophistication.

[kalowski]

Best UK sketch comedy show of recent years:




Ethnic minorities, check, women, check, I think one or two of them might even be state educated.

Correct. But especially series 1-5. Partly written by Steve Punt, of course.

[petril]

[tag]drinking cheap lager in a Camden boozer[/tag]

[Soup]

I think for a fair amount of time sketch comedy was seen as a natural way in to comedy for young up and comers (/oxbridge graduates) in a way that just isn't true anymore. Part of it is how popular and mainstream stand-up has become over the last few years, on these shores probably going back to the rise of Mock the Week, followed by your roadshows and live at the apollos. It's possibly a broader phenomenon of the anglophone sphere, when you consider how much comedy programming in the U.S became "barely fictionalised comedian being a comedian", although that does seem to be receding a bit. In fact, if you look at the enormous boom in podcasts where comedians talk to comedians, there does seem to be a much reinvigorated sense of the comedian as funny individual saying funny things, rather than more ambitious attempts at collaboration, fiction, interesting projects etc.

[Ignatius_S]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/06/19/oxbridge-white-blokes-like-monty-python-have-had-day-says-bbc/

The head of BBC comedy made this apparent slight against Monty Python in a recent interview...

I know this goes against the grain, but looking at the remarks and the context they were made in, suggests it wasn't a slight.

In any case, Allen has said he was misinterpreted (cue Mandy Rice Davies): http://www.chortle.co.uk/news/2018/06/22/40308/white_oxbridge_comedy_has_not_ceased_to_be%21

....To me 'diversity' is absolutely the least of the problems with british comedy right now...

Yeah, not overly surprised by that remark – or the inverted commas.

The BBC get complaints about too many repeats and the same could be applied elsewhere.

...whereas the BBC hasn't produced a sketch show, black, white, male or female, that was any good in 20 years...

Rubbish.

Although to be fair, facts aren't your forte. But, as per below, moving goalposts....

That's a something I've been wondering. Purely subjective, but it always felt like in the late nineties when sketch comedy was getting tediously naturalistic and boiled down to the minimal (Big Train, Smack the Pony etc.), Ricky Gervais' The Office came along and made everyone embarassed and nervous about making anything overtly "ha-ha" and "this is comedy"....

It was more, commissioners wanted cringe and non-studio filming, so let's go with Man Stroke Woman and Spoons.

...Second of all, for some reason no one here seems to like it (I don't think) but Monkey Dust will always be my favourite sketch show/animated show...

Not so! (No one liking it here, I mean.)

There's definitely a homogeneity to TV Comedy at the moment. Part of that comes from unadventurous commissioning, but it also hugely comes from the lack of diversity in people who are given opportunities....

One of the issues is the commissioning process is such a torturous process – it's very risky for commissioners to err... take risks.

However, schedulers have arguably far, far more power than commissioners and there's a nervousness about putting on comedy at decent times. This article did a good job looking at the latter: https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jan/17/tracey-ullman-uk-comeback-tv-comedy-schedules-bbc

They also used to say "can we get Johnny Vaughan in it?". How times have changed.

To be fair, they then quickly said 'What have we done?'

Would an edgy evening sketch show look out of place on BBC1 or BBC2 these days? They're more likely to send a comic and his mum on a travel show...

What would be an edgy sketch show? In any case, because of timid scheduling, yes it would.

....I understand there's Tracey Breaks the News, I haven't seen it but I'm guessing its shit. From the still images it looks like a decently budgeted show that's as MOR as fuck. But its got a glossy look that dullards in the home counties might mistake for sophistication.

Go on, be a devil – try watching it.

I think for a fair amount of time sketch comedy was seen as a natural way in to comedy for young up and comers (/oxbridge graduates) in a way that just isn't true anymore....

What sort of timeframe are you thinking of?

[Brundle-Fly]

Purely subjective, but it always felt like in the late nineties when sketch comedy was getting tediously naturalistic and boiled down to the minimal (Big Train, Smack the Pony etc.),

Granted, you do say its subjective but both those shows were funny and although the actors didn't give broad performances they were still very comedic in style. How is this tedious or boiled down to the minimal?

[Brundle-Fly]

Little Britain is a great example of the death of British sketch comedy. Not because it existed but because it got 3 series. The second series was quite bad but apparently not bad enough to prevent a third series which was an atrocity, grotesque humour replacing any last hint of an idea.

The first series was brilliant though. They made three series because it was very popular. The death of British sketch comedy isn't because it's unfashionable or anything, it's because they're very expensive to make. All the budgets have since been slashed.

[zomgmouse]

Hi someone give me money I'll make you a sketch show

[Ignatius_S]

The first series was brilliant though. They made three series because it was very popular. The death of British sketch comedy isn't because it's unfashionable or anything, it's because they're very expensive to make. All the budgets have since been slashed.

That's a really good point about budgets - Enfield and Whitehouse have underlined how much budgets have been reduced by.

[rasta-spouse]

Granted, you do say its subjective but both those shows were funny and although the actors didn't give broad performances they were still very comedic in style. How is this tedious or boiled down to the minimal?

Big Train has some nice bits, The Staring contest commentators, Kevin Eldon walking in a funny way past a door. But there are a lot of those one-note undeveloped sketches played out for minutes with no frills or extra jokes. Graham Linehan himself has admitted that the show could have been much funnier in podcasts (those long interviews he gives over the phone with the chirpy American chap, Ken....something). Like Chairman Mao singing Roxy Music, you wonder, is that it? Love the song tho.

And, well, Smack the Pony is that taken to another level. One single (perhaps comical) idea acted out to the point where it's tedious. It's comedic minimalism. Fashionable around the late nineties onwards. Although I must add the performers are good, and so are the performances, but I find it a very stingy form of comedy.

To the chap who encouraged me to watch Tracey Breaks the News - my cursor has been hovering above a youtube link for a half hour...but I daren't.

[Huxleys Babkins]

That's a really good point about budgets - Enfield and Whitehouse have underlined how much budgets have been reduced by.

Vic and Bob too. If you look at the quality of the sketches, sets and props in Shooting Stars over time, you can see how far budgets have fallen. There's a noticeable drop in wardrobe and graphics quality between Geordie Jeans and Geordie Jumpers before it falls off a cliff and gives us Geordie Sofas.

It explains why they are bringing back the "Big Night Out" format rather than the "Smell of/Bang Bang" format too.

[Brundle-Fly]

One of the reasons '00's sketch shows had so many recurring characters because they could reuse the same set six times and the wig budget didn't run into tens of thousands. 

Another thing I find interesting is the comedy that aficionados and Cabbers seem to prefer is never what the general public go for. Geoff Posner once remarked that when he was producing Harry Enfield, the stuff that got their weakest viewing figures was the parodies: Norbert Smith, A Life, Smashie & Nicie- End Of An Era, Norman Ormal, A Political Turtle, The Story Of The 2s.

If you asked the man in the street what his favourite Enfield sketches were, it probably wouldn't be Cholmondeley Warner or Several Pens, it would be Kevin & Perry or The Slobs.

[rasta-spouse]

Norbert Smith, A Life, Smashie & Nicie- End Of An Era, Norman Ormal, A Political Turtle, The Story Of The 2s.

These are peak examples of comedic maximalism, and a pleasure to see them mentioned. But yeah, I couldn't for the life of me quote them down the pub to my mates who've been layed-off because of the robots.


To anyone in the know, why is it BBC comedy budgets have been slashed but every other BBC prestige drama has the budget to be set in three or four different countries? And even if the beeb is in the doldrums, surely C4, ITV or Sky could still eke out a sketch show?