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"The living embodiment of global Britain"

Started by Fambo Number Mive, June 25, 2018, 11:30:40 AM

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Shoulders?-Stomach!

"Sorry, meant to say depravity's herniated rape alarm"

Funcrusher

Quote from: Zetetic on June 25, 2018, 04:28:28 PM
I think that's getting away from the point - not that the campaigns were particularly effective in themselves (and I've already agreed that they depended on the decades of setup), but that by voting with them at that time you were inevitably endorsing the views set out in them and those setting them out (and giving a mandate to those liable to be in government to respond to these).

Which is what is happening. And so, Johnson does now represent Leavers - he is one of their most prominent representatives (even as many of them come to despise him).

People don't get to choose what their vote meant, other than by recognising how it would be interpreted, by looking at the context in which it would be cast. (As is the case with all such acts of course, except that in this case it's even harder for voters to explain themselves after the fact.)

Well, people have reasons for voting (which may or may not be well informed) which are what their vote means. By voting for remain I didn't consider myself to be endorsing the views of hardcore Europhiles, it was just the best choice on balance.

And I'm not sure what wagging one's finger at Leave voters achieves. They will just dig in further and become more enmeshed on that side and the divison wiil become wider. Part of me would like Corbyn to come out against Brexit, but I get why he is taking the line that he is. What leave voters vote will mean in terms of the UK economy won't be clear for years yet - each side is trying to claim better or worse than expected quarterly figures for X or Y prove their case but that's bollocks. Saying I told you so if it all goes to shit at that point will be way too late. And for right now it's possible to make the case that Brexit will turn out just fine.

Zetetic

#62
Quote from: Funcrusher on June 25, 2018, 05:19:46 PM
Well, people have reasons for voting (which may or may not be well informed) which are what their vote means.
No, that's not how meaning works. You don't get to decide how your actions are interpreted, you only get to choose your actions.

QuoteBy voting for remain I didn't consider myself to be endorsing the views of hardcore Europhiles, it was just the best choice on balance.
Would anyone have thought otherwise, given that the emphasis of the campaign was "it's just about better to stay than not, pragmatically speaking"?

QuoteAnd I'm not sure what wagging one's finger at Leave voters achieves.
Oh, not very much. (But who was suggesting that it did? The starting point for this discussion was me finding it slightly funny that quoting the PM now, given particular view of Johnson at least, seemed to be denigrating people who voted for Leave in a manner that some of us have tried to police the Brexit thread against.)

QuoteAnd for right now it's possible to make the case that Brexit will turn out just fine.
I think that minimises the upset and damage done to some people already by the campaign, the result and the process to date, whatever happens next.

Don't get me wrong - it would be nice if someone was able to propose a coherent, positive, socially liberal and economically socialist vision for leaving for the EU and push that as the alternative narrative to the 'Global Britain' and 'Taking Control of Borders' wank. (That's not going to happen for a broad set of reasons, but one of which is who the vote empowered as representatives of Leaving.)

Funcrusher

Quote from: Zetetic on June 25, 2018, 05:26:03 PM
No, that's not how meaning works. You don't get to decide how your actions are interpreted, you only get to choose your actions.


Interpreting someone else's action is surely just an interpretation, it's not anymore definitively what it means that their own interpretation. I guess. Conversations with you do lead down some strange paths.

Quote from: Zetetic on June 25, 2018, 05:26:03 PM

Oh, not very much. (But who was suggesting that it did? The starting point for this discussion was me finding it slightly funny that quoting the PM now, given particular view of Johnson at least, seemed to be denigrating people who voted for Leave in a manner that some of us have tried to police the Brexit thread against.)


I'm still not sure I get why quoting May's comment denigrates leave voters. Which I don't think people should do - the message for the Left has to be that if a majority vote for Brexit or Trump, or embrace the alt-right, then the Left has at some level failed, in maintaining its grassroots connections and in getting it's message across. If you aren't denigrating Leave voters you seem to want to hold them to account for the mess which they are not alone in causing

Quote from: Zetetic on June 25, 2018, 05:26:03 PM

I think that minimises the upset and damage done to some people already by the campaign, the result and the process to date, whatever happens next.

That may be so, but a lot of Leave voters see this as payback for their own issues going unaddressed, rightly or wrongly.

Zetetic

Quote from: Funcrusher on June 25, 2018, 05:46:32 PM
Interpreting someone else's action is surely just an interpretation, it's not anymore definitively what it means that their own interpretation.
It is for the person on the other side - if I shout "fucking cunt" at you, then I can hardly complain that you take it a certain way.

I might try to explain what I meant by "fucking cunt" - although you probably won't be listening by this point - and you can point out that really I should have known how anyone was going to interpret it given the context of how people have used "fucking cunt" for hundreds of years. (Edit: Monggate was in 2011, apparently.)

So it goes for endorsing a position mostly campaigned for on and supported by misinformation, xenophobia and misplaced frustration, particularly when the position itself as posed is utterly nebulous and you don't have the chance for all several-million-of-you to explain yourselves afterwards in way that the Government will take any notice of. (And that's being generous and not counting the General Election as many people doubling down on the least charitable interpretations available.)

QuoteI'm still not sure I get why quoting May's comment denigrates leave voters.
Because it casts Boris Johnson - to me and you, an utter cunt - as the living embodiment of post-Brexit 'Global Britain' - it's difficult to distinguish, on the face of it, from someone crudely parodying either Theresa May attempting to crassly appeal to Leave voters or what Leave voters actually want from post-Brexit Britain.

QuoteThat may be so, but a lot of Leave voters see this as payback for their own issues going unaddressed, rightly or wrongly.
Which has nothing to do with my response or what I'm responding to there. It's a bit irritating when you do this - you give a non-sequitur response as if I'm disagreeing with whatever novelty you're trying to stuff in.

QuoteIf you aren't denigrating Leave voters you seem to want to hold them to account for the mess which they are not alone in causing
I think this is a broader discussion that has been done to death in the Brexit threads themselves.

Funcrusher

Quote from: Zetetic on June 25, 2018, 05:59:35 PM
So it goes for endorsing a position mostly campaigned for on and supported by misinformation, xenophobia and misplaced frustration, particularly when you don't have the chance for all several-million-of-you to explain yourselves afterwards in way that the Government will take any notice of. (And that's being generous and not counting the General Election as many people doubling down on the least charitable interpretations available.)


Leave voters at this point don't think they have to explain themselves because they think they did the right thing because the misinformation worked, and because their misplaced frustrations continue

Quote from: Zetetic on June 25, 2018, 05:59:35 PM

Because it casts Boris Johnson - to me and you, an utter cunt - as the living embodiment of post-Brexit 'Global Britain' - it's difficult to distinguish, on the face of it, from someone crudely parodying either Theresa May attempting to crassly appeal to Leave voters or what Leave voters actually want from post-Brexit Britain.


I think that her comment is vague enough to be open to interpretations, including that it's a knock against Johnson for behaving like a globalist, or that it's just May keeping the peace. And neither Johnson or May or their respective camps can say anything very meaningful about Brexit because their stances on it are full of internal contradictions, like their positions on most things.

Quote from: Zetetic on June 25, 2018, 05:59:35 PM

Which has nothing to do with my response or what I'm responding to there. It's a bit irritating when you do this - you give a non-sequitur response as if I'm disagreeing with whatever novelty you're trying to stuff in.


It's not a non-sequitur at all or stuffing in any kind of novelty. Your argument that Brexit has caused harm to some already would just get a response from a Leave voter in the current polarised state of things along the lines of 'no one was bothered about..' -insert whatever their main concern is (de-industrialisation, offshoring of jobs, casualisation of work etc).

Zetetic

What has your imagined conversations with Leave voters got to do with the existing negative impact of the whole debacle?

It's still a non-sequitur - it does nothing to address that impact.

QuoteLeave voters at this point don't think they have to explain themselves
Ok. Which is leading them to be interpreted - uncharitably by people who didn't vote leave, but also by our Government - as having desires for Brexit in-line with the campaign and the espoused views of its most prominent proponents.

If they're happy with that, that's fine, I guess, although the point being made by some is that it's unfair to assume that they share these views.

Zetetic

Quote from: Funcrusher on June 25, 2018, 03:55:14 PM
Many of those involved in the campaign, like Farage, have largely fucked off now
Like Farage?

That's an odd kind of fucking-off.

Funcrusher

Quote from: Zetetic on June 25, 2018, 10:31:31 PM
What has your imagined conversations with Leave voters got to do with the existing negative impact of the whole debacle?

It's still a non-sequitur - it does nothing to address that impact.
Ok. Which is leading them to be interpreted - uncharitably by people who didn't vote leave, but also by our Government - as having desires for Brexit in-line with the campaign and the espoused views of its most prominent proponents.

If they're happy with that, that's fine, I guess, although the point being made by some is that it's unfair to assume that they share these views.

It's not about addressing the impact, it's about understanding why the impact is happening. You seem to be saying simultaneously that we shouldn't denigrate Leave voters but also that they have voted specifically for the espoused views of Leave campaigners and any other factors are irrelevant. This makes no sense to me at all.

Zetetic

There's no point denigrating Leave voters to their face.
I don't really mind jokey stereotypes them on here in the Brexit threads.

I think that voting for Brexit was more than a poor choice, it was immoral - because the vote was in the context of a campaign that gave it particular connotations.
Part of me thinks that the people who voted this should be brought to understand their immorality on this point, but I think that's largely fanciful and not useful.
However, those who led them to that vote really should answer for their crimes, but I don't think that they will.
Those connotations are now the vague basis for setting policy, effectively proving the point about the actual meaning of a vote to Leave, here and now.

We can understand that various people had various causes and reasons (noting that these are different) for voting Leave that are different to meaning of that vote.
Given that, we may be able to better serve them with different polices and attempting to force a reinterpretation of that vote.
But we probably won't anytime soon.

Zetetic

Quote from: Funcrusher on June 25, 2018, 10:38:08 PM
It's not about addressing the impact
Right, thank you for admitting this.

Quoteit's about understanding why the impact is happening.
You are of no help to me on this. There is nothing you have given me on this point that I do not understanding myself.

Funcrusher

Quote from: Zetetic on June 25, 2018, 10:46:19 PM
Right, thank you for admitting this.


Thanks for quoting me out of context

Quote from: Zetetic on June 25, 2018, 10:46:19 PM

You are of no help to me on this. There is nothing you have given me on this point that I do not understanding myself.

How many times and in how many ways do I have to say this? Brexit is a product of de-industrialisation, offshoring, mechanisation and various other factors that have led to parts of the UK going into economic decline, which mainstream politics has failed to address, leaving grassroots links to decay and existing within a metropolitan bubble. Brexit is a failure of the left as much as anything else. If you think that confronting Leave voters with their "immorality" will achieve anything other than making matters worse, then you're part of the problem. If no lessons are learned, nothing will changfe, except for the worse.

Zetetic

QuoteIf you think that confronting Leave voters with their "immorality" will achieve
But I don't. I specifically said that I don't. (I only brought it up in the interests of openness! More fool me I guess, what with giving a sentence multiple clauses.)

Why do you keep doing this?

manticore

Quote from: Zetetic on June 25, 2018, 05:26:03 PM
Don't get me wrong - it would be nice if someone was able to propose a coherent, positive, socially liberal and economically socialist vision for leaving for the EU and push that as the alternative narrative to the 'Global Britain' and 'Taking Control of Borders' wank. (That's not going to happen for a broad set of reasons, but one of which is who the vote empowered as representatives of Leaving.)

Okay I actually understand this bit, and I would like to say that as someone who didn't follow the EU referendum campaign closely enough, the thing that finally decided me to vote Remain was the 'Lexit' video I watched on youtube, which was so awful - the nadir being George Galloway actually drivelling about 'Making Britain Great Again' -  that I thought 'if this is the best case the left can make for leaving then stuff it'.

Really I think (supposedly) left-wing people wanting to leave made a terrible choice of making their case, which was a great pity. I wish Benn had still been alive, it would have been interesting to hear him.

Funcrusher

Quote from: Zetetic on June 25, 2018, 11:37:43 PM
But I don't. I specifically said that I don't. (I only brought it up in the interests of openness! More fool me I guess, what with giving a sentence multiple clauses.)

Why do you keep doing this?

Doing what? You are making no sense whatsoever that I can see. You have been going on at length about how voting leave was harmful, immoral, condones the policies of Leave campaigners etc. I think that characterising Leave voters in that way serves no purpose, and is denigrating them, which you say you don't want to do. They have been misled, and the left have failed to counter this, and have lashed out as a result of issues politicians in general have failed to address.


Zetetic

Quote from: Funcrusher on June 25, 2018, 11:49:48 PM
Doing what?
Making out as if I hold positions that I've explicitly said that I don't. What's the point?