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This anti-Trump's visit protest

Started by garbed_attic, June 25, 2018, 07:39:36 PM

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Zetetic

No.

I'm saying it didn't work, which I would have thought would be a fairly uncontroversial analysis given the fact of the invasion.

(More controversially, perhaps, that it didn't work - along with the whole hideous process - proved immensely disheartening to many people, not just those there.)

Funcrusher

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on June 25, 2018, 10:00:08 PM
It's the same with tedious floating-above-it-all whybotherism. RRR.

It's don't-do-things-which-are-probably-actively-counterproductiveism. Real Recognise Rubbish.

Funcrusher

Quote from: Zetetic on June 25, 2018, 10:14:19 PM
No.

I'm saying it didn't work, which I would have thought would be a fairly uncontroversial analysis given the fact of the invasion.

(More controversially, perhaps, that it didn't work - along with the whole hideous process - proved immensely disheartening to many people, not just those there.)

With the benefit of hindsight it didn't work. No one on the march had access to the TARDIS, so weren't to know this, as is the case with any protest. Are you saying that protests are worthwhile or pointless?

Funcrusher

Quote from: Zetetic on June 25, 2018, 10:02:34 PM

I don't know what constructive response you might imagine was possible to that. "No, gout_pony should rot in hell, the useless cunt."?

I think I've given a more constructive response than 'AAAAAAH'.

I would like to state for the record that I hope gout_pony and Jobotic have a nice day out with the Tooting Popular Front.

Zetetic

I'm not sure you have given a more constructive response to "Cohering and hardening the identity is useful for the group, but are the group useful to anyone else?". Does this do anything other than dismiss gout_pony and his fellows as not "useful to anyone else"?

Quote from: Funcrusher on June 25, 2018, 10:19:20 PM
With the benefit of hindsight it didn't work. No one on the march had access to the TARDIS, so weren't to know this, as is the case with any protest.
What is the point of all of this?

QuoteAre you saying that protests are worthwhile or pointless?
Protests as a way of re-enforcing group identity seem sensible - it's hard for this not to work.

To raise the profile of an issue? Sure, noting that you're probably somewhat dependent on others'.

To convince either politicians or the wider public? I think that's a lot more complicated, and you position of dismissing any protest that doesn't have a clear change-goal seems to ignore that many protests with such goals - possibly most, possibly increasingly in the West - have little impact to their supposed end and that in the process they can exhaust people's will.

Funcrusher

Quote from: Zetetic on June 25, 2018, 10:23:38 PM
Protests as a way of re-enforcing group identity seem sensible - it's hard for this not to work.

To raise the profile of an issue? Sure, noting that you're probably somewhat dependent on others'.

To convince either politicians or the wider public? I think that's a lot more complicated, and you position of dismissing any protest that doesn't have a clear change-goal seems to ignore that many protests with such goals - possibly most, possibly increasingly in the West - have little impact to their supposed end.

So you dismissing the Iraq War protests is fine, but I can't dismiss the Trump protest? My concern is that it serves to re-enforce the identity of the alt-centre while failing to appeal to a wider public.

Zetetic

How have I dismissed the Iraq War protests?

By pointing out that they didn't stop the Iraq War?

Funcrusher

Quote from: Zetetic on June 25, 2018, 10:27:22 PM
How have I dismissed the Iraq War protests?

By pointing out that they didn't stop the Iraq War?

Uh, yes. Their purpose was to stop the war, not cohere a group solidarity.

Zetetic

I agree. And they failed at that.

It seems a bit unfair to say that I've 'dismissed' them by noting this fact. I've not said that people who were on it were wrong. At most, I've suggested what enabled the Government of the time not to have to respond to them in a meaningful way.

Or do you want me to pretend that they succeeded? Or, in the context of discussion about the outcomes of protests just ignore the whole thing?

rjd2

Quote from: Funcrusher on June 25, 2018, 10:26:40 PM
So you dismissing the Iraq War protests is fine, but I can't dismiss the Trump protest? My concern is that it serves to re-enforce the identity of the alt-centre while failing to appeal to a wider public.

Its tricky.

I sort of get what you are saying and am somewhat annoyed by the fact that when other despots like Salman of Saudi Arabia visit only a handful of people bother to protest, but the masses will be out and force for Trump. However on the other hand for a man with such a fragile ego its hard not to cheer on the protesters either even if won't change anyone's opinion of Trump one way or other.


Funcrusher

Quote from: Zetetic on June 25, 2018, 10:33:41 PM
I agree. And they failed at that.

It seems a bit unfair to say that I've 'dismissed' them by noting this fact. I've not said that people who were on it were wrong. At most, I've suggested what enabled the Government of the time not to have to respond to them in a meaningful way.

Or do you want me to pretend that they succeeded? Or, in the context of discussion about the outcomes of protests just ignore the whole thing?

So never embark on any activity where failure is a possibility? Most protests fall on deaf ears, so just never bother. My argument against the Trump protests is not that they're pointless, but that they might be actively counterproductive.

Zetetic

Quote from: Funcrusher on June 25, 2018, 10:42:13 PM
So never embark on any activity where failure is a possibility?
No, and I've no idea where you've drawn that from.

Funcrusher

Quote from: rjd2 on June 25, 2018, 10:34:27 PM
Its tricky.

I sort of get what you are saying and am somewhat annoyed by the fact that when other despots like Salman of Saudi Arabia visit only a handful of people bother to protest, but the masses will be out and force for Trump. However on the other hand for a man with such a fragile ego its hard not to cheer on the protesters either even if won't change anyone's opinion of Trump one way or other.

What may happen is that he will go back to the US and whine that a bunch of leftists gave him the finger in England when he was just visiting as the democratically elected president, as is usual, and this will strengthen his support.

Buelligan

Quote from: Funcrusher on June 25, 2018, 09:39:01 PM
Can anyone really say that Trump has any kind of coherent ideology that one can oppose?

I think this is a big reason why he gained and holds power.  We're being encouraged to think that opposing Trump is like opposing rain.  It's not.

Trump is the figurehead on a juggernaut that is chaotically mowing down our culture in an apparently random and meaningless way.  It's not random, just made to look that way so's no one can get a bead on it. Capitalism is dying and this tank is leveling the ground, splitting and isolating opposition, in preparation for a brave new empathy-free world where greed is god and nothing, nothing, is off limits. 

Everyone with any sense at all must oppose it.  Standing together and showing that we share common values and culture that we will not allow to fall is the right thing to do because it will show people everywhere that we will resist and they can too.  Trump is winning because we are not taking this (him) seriously.  This is not a shower of rain, it's a (human and fallible) shower of cunts that must be stopped if we value our peaceful lives.

Funcrusher

Quote from: Zetetic on June 25, 2018, 10:46:51 PM
No, and I've no idea where you've drawn that from.

Are you saying that people should not have marched against the Iraq war? Why does it matter that it didn't avert the war? Why is that relevant?

Zetetic

Quote from: Funcrusher on June 25, 2018, 10:49:03 PM
Are you saying that people should not have marched against the Iraq war?
No. (You can tell by the way that I've not said that.)

QuoteWhy does it matter that it didn't avert the war? Why is that relevant?
Wow.

Twed

I am really enjoying Zetetic today.

Funcrusher

I think I am not being unreasonable in saying that you have characterised marching against the Iraq war rather negatively.

Quote from: Zetetic on June 25, 2018, 09:33:59 PM
It's not very 'useful' though - see the Iraq War. You don't achieve what you want, and feel helpless afterwards.

(Edit: I suppose it's useful for the status quo, insofar as it sucks up energy and replaces it with apathy.)


Zetetic

By the standards of 'usefulness', yes - which you brought up for discussion.

(Which I don't think is the only one, and as is trivially obvious, hard to judge ahead of time.)

They were not useful at preventing what they sought to prevent - that's not my fault. That might be relevant when now trying to understand what's a 'useful' protest and what isn't, and why.

manticore

Quote from: Zetetic on June 25, 2018, 10:10:54 PM
Not until afterwards, no, and then you could be fairly sure when the invasion of Iraq happened, which promoted - I suggest - a feeling of powerlessness and engendered a belief in the pointlessness of mass action.

I'm suggesting that things that help people overcome that are, all else being equal, a good thing.

I don't really understand this post and I'm confused as I so often am, but if there was a small chance that the demonstration could have an effect on such an important thing, I still think it was worth doing, and I would do the same again in similar circumstances. I don't think people went into it with such high hopes, so I don't think it was such a morale squasher.

It wasn't like the attitude that we must do something exactly because we can do nothing, which isn't a good motivation.

Johnny Yesno

My futile protest is better than your futile protest.

Buelligan

Quote from: Zetetic on June 25, 2018, 11:06:26 PM
By the standards of 'usefulness', yes - which you brought up for discussion.

(Which I don't think is the only one, and as is trivially obvious, hard to judge ahead of time.)

They were not useful at preventing what they sought to prevent - that's not my fault. That might be relevant when now trying to understand what's a 'useful' protest and what isn't, and why.

There are other kinds of useful though.  I was in Bali when that protest took place, lots of Balinese people spoke to me about it, strangers spoke to me when they realised I was British, saying how great it was that British people were showing the world that they did not agree with what their government and that of the US were doing.  I think it made a lot of people think differently about the people of Britain and their values and that's a good thing, I think.

I also think it made Blair and his cohort think again about their god-given right to do whatever the fuck and that needed doing.

Zetetic

Quote from: manticore on June 25, 2018, 11:07:58 PM
I don't really understand this post
I think it's probably good if people are brought back to the general idea of collective action and the validity of standing up for or against things according to your morals.

Where we actually might disagree is how much the Iraq War caused people to disengage from democracy and its various expressions.

I'm not, and have not, said that people were wrong to protest the Iraq War. I have said that this did not prevent the war.

Zetetic

Quote from: Buelligan on June 25, 2018, 11:12:33 PM
I think it made a lot of people think differently about the people of Britain and their values and that's a good thing, I think.
Sure. (I think this is closer, but different from, the stuff about group identity.)

Alberon

Quote from: Funcrusher on June 25, 2018, 10:47:13 PM
What may happen is that he will go back to the US and whine that a bunch of leftists gave him the finger in England when he was just visiting as the democratically elected president, as is usual, and this will strengthen his support.

You're quite right. We must appease Trump.

Funcrusher

Quote from: Buelligan on June 25, 2018, 10:47:29 PM
I think this is a big reason why he gained and holds power.  We're being encouraged to think that opposing Trump is like opposing rain.  It's not.

Trump is the figurehead on a juggernaut that is chaotically mowing down our culture in an apparently random and meaningless way.  It's not random, just made to look that way so's no one can get a bead on it. Capitalism is dying and this tank is leveling the ground, splitting and isolating opposition, in preparation for a brave new empathy-free world where greed is god and nothing, nothing, is off limits. 

Everyone with any sense at all must oppose it.  Standing together and showing that we share common values and culture that we will not allow to fall is the right thing to do because it will show people everywhere that we will resist and they can too.  Trump is winning because we are not taking this (him) seriously.  This is not a shower of rain, it's a (human and fallible) shower of cunts that must be stopped if we value our peaceful lives.

I don't think that Trump is the figurehead of any juggernaut - the Republican establishment opposed him to the death, largely because they thought he would lose, as did the Democrats. He isn't part of any cunning plan - the Republican establishment are just doing as much as they can of what they would have done under a Ted Cruz presidency, which is probably what they wanted. Capitalism may die, or just metamorphose into neo-feudalism. If anti-Trump protesters stand together but fail to engage non-believers then he will win the next election as well.

Alberon

Trump is a symptom of the disease, not the disease itself.

Funcrusher

Quote from: Alberon on June 25, 2018, 11:16:00 PM
You're quite right. We must appease Trump.

Yes, that's exactly what I've said.

Funcrusher

Quote from: Alberon on June 25, 2018, 11:19:24 PM
Trump is a symptom of the disease, not the disease itself.

But why are people voting for a disease?

Twed

Because we keep believing that civility equates to goodness.