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March 28, 2024, 11:08:20 AM

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This anti-Trump's visit protest

Started by garbed_attic, June 25, 2018, 07:39:36 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Buelligan

Quote from: Funcrusher on June 25, 2018, 11:17:46 PM
I don't think that Trump is the figurehead of any juggernaut - the Republican establishment opposed him to the death, largely because they thought he would lose, as did the Democrats. He isn't part of any cunning plan - the Republican establishment are just doing as much as they can of what they would have done under a Ted Cruz presidency, which is probably what they wanted. Capitalism may die, or just metamorphose into neo-feudalism. If anti-Trump protesters stand together but fail to engage non-believers then he will win the next election as well.

He will win the next election if ordinary people allow the extraordinarily awful things he says and does to pass without demur.  The reason he won is because, like a playground bully, all the little people are either shuffling along trying not to draw attention to themselves by making a fuss and hoping they'll be able to carry on as normal or dreaming of the day that they too will put a bit of stick about.  Our united disgust at the way he behaves and the (lack of) values he espouses needs to be made abundantly clear to the whole world.  Popularity matters to cunts like him, it's how they get their traction.

And he is part of a cunning plan and part of the cunning plan is to make what he does seem so hopelessly directionless and meaningless that opposition doesn't bother because we're told it's like shouting at a rain cloud.  Think Steve Bannon.

Quote from: The IndependentSteve Bannon, Donald Trump's former chief strategist, sought to promote a "culture war" and persuade black people not to vote using Cambridge Analytica's data collection, it has been claimed.

The Breitbart co-founder "saw cultural warfare as a means to create enduring change in American politics", a former whistleblower told US senators in an evidence session on Wednesday.

Alberon

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

Of course you have to protest. We're in a dangerous phase here. Trump rampages around with the temper tantrums and attention span of a three year old. If someone got in who truly understood how to really manipulate and control this new extremist politics we are all fucked.

So do something.

Funcrusher

Quote from: Buelligan on June 25, 2018, 11:30:19 PM
He will win the next election if ordinary people allow the extraordinarily awful things he says and does to pass without demur.  The reason he won is because, like a playground bully, all the little people are either shuffling along trying not to draw attention to themselves by making a fuss and hoping they'll be able to carry on as normal or dreaming of the day that they too will put a bit of stick about.  Our united disgust at the way he behaves and the (lack of) values he espouses needs to be made abundantly clear to the whole world.  Popularity matters to cunts like him, it's how they get their traction.

And he is part of a cunning plan and part of the cunning plan is to make what he does seem so hopelessly directionless and meaningless that opposition doesn't bother because we're told it's like shouting at a rain cloud.  Think Steve Bannon.

But Trump has kicked Steve Bannon out. Trump will win the next election if he gets more votes than the Democratic candidate, same as last time. The left needs to convince enough people to vote the right way by convincing them that they're right.

Alberon

Quote from: Funcrusher on June 25, 2018, 11:38:41 PM
But Trump has kicked Steve Bannon out. Trump will win the next election if he gets more votes than the Democratic candidate, same as last time. The left needs to convince enough people to vote the right way by convincing them that they're right.

Toxic as Clinton was, and she was the only person who could lose to Trump, she did actually get more votes than him.

Funcrusher

Quote from: Alberon on June 25, 2018, 11:36:57 PM
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

Of course you have to protest. We're in a dangerous phase here. Trump rampages around with the temper tantrums and attention span of a three year old. If someone got in who truly understood how to really manipulate and control this new extremist politics we are all fucked.

So do something.

What, just anything? Maybe presenting a more appealing alternative might be a good solution. But you have to understand what that is, not just characterise the other side as nasty.

Funcrusher

Quote from: Alberon on June 25, 2018, 11:40:29 PM
Toxic as Clinton was, and she was the only person who could lose to Trump, she did actually get more votes than him.

Democrats can win in the US. Obama did it twice, Sanders could probably have done it again.

rjd2

Quote from: Buelligan on June 25, 2018, 11:30:19 PM
He will win the next election if ordinary people allow the extraordinarily awful things he says and does to pass without demur.  The reason he won is because, like a playground bully, all the little people are either shuffling along trying not to draw attention to themselves by making a fuss and hoping they'll be able to carry on as normal or dreaming of the day that they too will put a bit of stick about.  Our united disgust at the way he behaves and the (lack of) values he espouses needs to be made abundantly clear to the whole world.  Popularity matters to cunts like him, it's how they get their traction.

And he is part of a cunning plan and part of the cunning plan is to make what he does seem so hopelessly directionless and meaningless that opposition doesn't bother because we're told it's like shouting at a rain cloud.  Think Steve Bannon.

To be fair plenty of the media time is taken up with attacking Trump and there is a booming resistance grifter industry milking the masses (hello krassentein fuckwits).

The problem is Trump wants the culture war and everyone keeps talking the bait. For the Dems to beat him in 2020 they need to offer someone more inspiring than the likes of Brooker and Harris as even if they do win, both will be vulnerable to a more savvy Republican in 2020.

Its a  bit like the Macron issue in France, nobody really focused on him as there was a Nazi on the other side, but looking at his polling etc, he could be vulnerable if Le Pen get there house in order in a few years.

Alberon

Quote from: Funcrusher on June 25, 2018, 11:41:47 PM
What, just anything? Maybe presenting a more appealing alternative might be a good solution. But you have to understand what that is, not just characterise the other side as nasty.

I apologise for not setting out a multi page manifesto as I should have done before daring to confront something wrong. Trump has in the last couple of weeks introduced a deliberately cruel anti-immigration policy and then advocated cutting out the judicial process in removing illegal immigrants. That's enough on its own to get him labelled 'nasty'.

Buelligan

Quote from: Funcrusher on June 25, 2018, 11:38:41 PM
But Trump has kicked Steve Bannon out. Trump will win the next election if he gets more votes than the Democratic candidate, same as last time. The left needs to convince enough people to vote the right way by convincing them that they're right.

Yes but Steve Bannon's strategies and ideas - these aren't just random things, these ideas about changing America's (the World's) culture, big ideas that you can bet sit cosily right at the bottom of all this chaos Trump is unceasingly creating. 

The constant sackings and inquiries and scandals, so constant in fact that no one ever has time to really think about them before the next one arrives.  As soon as the feminists are provoked into action the focus is dragged across to the threat of Russia or we need to talk about children in cages or Melania's fashion choices, the tweets and the porn-fuckings and little by little terrible, terrible, stuff becomes normal because we're all so used to it.  A bit like school shootings or terrorist attacks, it has to be a really big one now to get anyone interested at all. 

This is not a mad accident.

Isnt Anything

Quote from: gout_pony on June 25, 2018, 07:39:36 PM
Anyone else going?

Well they might if you happened to mention when and where it was happening ....

Funcrusher

Quote from: Buelligan on June 25, 2018, 11:49:06 PM
Yes but Steve Bannon's strategies and ideas - these aren't just random things, these ideas about changing America's (the World's) culture, big ideas that you can bet sit cosily right at the bottom of all this chaos Trump is unceasingly creating. 

The constant sackings and inquiries and scandals, so constant in fact that no one ever has time to really think about them before the next one arrives.  As soon as the feminists are provoked into action the focus is dragged across to the threat of Russia or we need to talk about children in cages or Melania's fashion choices, the tweets and the porn-fuckings and little by little terrible, terrible, stuff becomes normal because we're all so used to it.  A bit like school shootings or terrorist attacks, it has to be a really big one now to get anyone interested at all. 

This is not a mad accident.

The Trump presidency is a mad accident, and it was not part of Steve Bannon's master plan to get kicked out of the administration. If one is opposed to the encroachment of the military-industrial complex and general corporatism and American imperialism there are worse offenders than Trump, but he's more crass and vulgar and vocal because he's an idiot and crazy, so he makes for a better villain.

manticore

Quote from: Buelligan on June 25, 2018, 11:49:06 PM
Yes but Steve Bannon's strategies and ideas - these aren't just random things, these ideas about changing America's (the World's) culture, big ideas that you can bet sit cosily right at the bottom of all this chaos Trump is unceasingly creating. 

The constant sackings and inquiries and scandals, so constant in fact that no one ever has time to really think about them before the next one arrives.  As soon as the feminists are provoked into action the focus is dragged across to the threat of Russia or we need to talk about children in cages or Melania's fashion choices, the tweets and the porn-fuckings and little by little terrible, terrible, stuff becomes normal because we're all so used to it.  A bit like school shootings or terrorist attacks, it has to be a really big one now to get anyone interested at all. 

This is not a mad accident.

No indeed it's not - it's very largely the doing of a media system that concentrates on and emphasises the wrong things - a lot of the things you mention above.  As funcrusher says, the biggest problem is the Republican Party, and it wouldn't be much different if Ted Cruz was president rather than Trump.

Buelligan

Quote from: Funcrusher on June 25, 2018, 11:59:51 PM
The Trump presidency is a mad accident, and it was not part of Steve Bannon's master plan to get kicked out of the administration.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that this is Steve Bannon's plan, I meant that these ideas, ideas which are apparent in the actions of Steve Bannon are not isolated, IMO, they underlie the philosophy, goals and strategy of Trump's whole team. 

newbridge

Has Funcrusher been arguing for 3 pages and counting that people should not protest Donald Trump? Is that where we're at?

Mister Six

Quote from: Funcrusher on June 25, 2018, 07:51:02 PM
And what is the point in protesting against Trump? He won the election, focus on beating him next time.

Or... do... both?

MoonDust

How far does a President of the USA have to go before it's okay to protest against them getting the red carpet treatment in the UK with our money, instead of saying "meh, wait till election time"?

Banning people from majority muslim countries entering the US? Refusing to condemn terrorism at the hands of white supremacists by saying "the other side of the protests were bad too."? Inadvertently emboldening White supremacists across the US and beyond, but yet refusing to distance himself from such people? Bringing the world close to war with North Korea because of childish spats on Twitter? Locking up children in cages? Using language of actual fascists to whip up anti-immigration hatred in light of detaining such children?

Apparently, according to some, all of the above isn't enough to protest against his visit. Let's just ignore him until the next election, eh?

Christ, what more does he have to do? Build concentration camps? Annex Canada? Nuke Mexico?

Plus, look around the world and you see the established order crumbling before our eyes. This includes the checks and balances we had in place to ensure despots don't exploit democracy. Not perfect though is it? In recent years, Hungary, Poland, Turkey, and to some extent the UK, the normal democratic process is failing in their own way, allowing governments and strongmen to rule more and more as they wish. Who can say the USA is immune to that? Who can say the next US election won't have a spiked increase in voter intimidation? Maybe vote rigging? Maybe not Trump himself, but there are certainly people in the GOP or supporters from without who would actually love to see the USA become a far-right dictatorship. Just look at the aforementioned white supremacists who are now emboldened. Or that Republican politician who said all that Nazi shit at some speech.

So yes, by all fucking means, protest his visit. Block the fucking roads if you have to. I dream we go further and the unions grow some balls and call for a strike on the day. Because this is a message to Theresa May as well. It's about appeasement. It's about her doing nothing beyond platitudinous answers to the press over Trump's abhorrent and genuinely fascist policies. It's about her being the first to jump on the fucking phone to invite him for tea before Trump had a chance to warm his chair in the Oval Office. It's about more than Donald Trump being simply a bad man. It's about saying no to allowing the world to once again slide into chaos and barbarism like it did eight decades ago, and saying no before it's too late, because such chaos and barbarism has already begun to happen. We've been asleep to it for too long, but now it's time to wake the fuck up.

So don't listen to the sceptics. Protesting against Trump's visit isn't going to harm Trump's position, true. But it will send a message of hope and solidarity at a time when such things are seriously lacking in the world right now. So protest to your heart's fucking content, you beautiful cunts!

jobotic

Thank you, I will. Spot on.

I wish I was more cool and rational and detached though, like Funcrusher and Co.

Pdine

#77
This is fun:

https://yougov.co.uk/opi/browse/Donald_Trump

What traits are statistically correlated with approving of Donald Trump (for UK respondents)?

* Liking pork scratchings
* Working in the military or defence industry
* Liking Taylor Swift (very strong correlation there)
* Liking the movie Predator
* Liking Adidas and Hugo Boss clothing
* Liking Dad's Army, and specifically Arthur Lowe

edit to add: https://yougov.co.uk/profileslite#/Taylor_Swift/demographics <- confirms my suspicion that Taylor Swift fans are also disproportionately involved with mining and quarrying.

edit to add: I'm in favour of the protest, but it's made me think of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=qfTlGMCeuDE

ieXush2i

Quote from: Old Nehamkin on June 25, 2018, 09:20:30 PM
What if it's less 'Donald Trump is a nasty man' and more 'Donald Trump uses his platform to appease white supremacists and promote ethno nationalism?' Because I think the latter is very much worth speaking out about tbh.

Well he's not so much "appeasing" and "promoting" those things insofar as "being one" and "putting into practice".

Beware the person who says "what's the point of protesting", their selective nihilism just encourages us all to accept incremental stages along the road before we all realise it's too late.

Pdine, what is it with Taylor Swift fans and white supremacy? https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/ae5x8a/cant-shake-it-off-how-taylor-swift-became-a-nazi-idol

ieXush2i

Quote from: newbridge on June 26, 2018, 02:05:33 AM
Has Funcrusher been arguing for 3 pages and counting that people should not protest Donald Trump? Is that where we're at?

It'll only divide people apparently. Very centrist attitude. Drive for appeasement.

greenman

Quote from: MoonDust on June 26, 2018, 06:27:15 AM
How far does a President of the USA have to go before it's okay to protest against them getting the red carpet treatment in the UK with our money, instead of saying "meh, wait till election time"?

Declare himself king , ban women from driving and make homosexually a capital crime whilst bombing civilians in the country next door? actually perhaps not given a lack of reaction to Salman's visit.

MoonDust

Quote from: greenman on June 26, 2018, 08:47:21 AM
Declare himself king , ban women from driving and make homosexually a capital crime whilst bombing civilians in the country next door? actually perhaps not given a lack of reaction to Salman's visit.

But this is a false equivalence and you know it. True, there should have been more outrage at Salman's visit, but it's different with Trump because of the country he represents. He is the president of the most powerful country in the west,  for better or worse the most important ally of the UK as far as our military interests are concerned (which I totally oppose) and this supposedly democratic country the west looks up to is quickly sliding towards tyranny and fascism.

So no, although of course we send the red carpet out for other despots and human rights abusers, it is totally different when such people are the president of the US. Context is everything, and the context here is the most powerful country in the world is hurtling towards fascism and the UK government seemingly doesn't give a shit.

That is something worth protesting about.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

QuoteThe more you try to criminalise or "demonise" those that don't agree with the latest iteration of identity politics that you only came up with five minutes ago, the more you expand your definition of "bigotry".

Soon the charge loses all meaning as more and more people look at you in wonder and amazement that you can take yourself so seriously.

Quote
Trumps comes not only as the US President an office we should respect , and as a representative of our friends in the USA, but also as our Guest.
Please show him British manners .

All of which is logic that suggests we should apply the same to anyone of any beliefs including fascists. It's simply bigotry if we show intolerance to fascism.

Here's your express pass to a fuck marked Off

Buelligan

Quote from: Mister Six on June 26, 2018, 02:20:58 AM
Or... do... both?

Absolutely.  This needs to be opposed with every reasonable avenue of opposition open to us because it must be stopped.

What if he shows up, and we all just hide, so it's like there's no-one here at all.

And we put up all flyers for an amazing party, like that's where we've all gone. And he's missed it.

And to cheer himself up, he goes to buy a twix, but the shop-man is gone as well.

Everyone's just gone.

How was your trip to the U.K.? The Americans will ask.

Yeah, it was OK, he'll have to say, really good.

Imagine that.

Funcrusher

Quote from: newbridge on June 26, 2018, 02:05:33 AM
Has Funcrusher been arguing for 3 pages and counting that people should not protest Donald Trump? Is that where we're at?

Is it protesting that Donald Trump exists? He'll still exist after the protests. Is it a protest that the country that elected Obama twice and probably would have elected the first Jewish president if they'd been given the chance is a majority nazi country?

Alberon

Maybe we should all go on a diplomatic trip to Afghanistan so avoiding having to make a decision to take a stand or not.

Buelligan

Quote from: Funcrusher on June 26, 2018, 10:02:17 AM
Is it protesting that Donald Trump exists?

If you honestly can't understand why millions of people worldwide abhor Trump and fear him and fear what he will cause to happen in their little lives, if you see nothing more-than-averagely disgraceful or frightening about the things that are done in his name and the direction he's taking the US (and, by extension, the world) in, if there really is nothing to see here for you, then you should probably stay at home and get on with your knitting or something.

Quote from: Funcrusher on June 26, 2018, 10:02:17 AM
Is it protesting that Donald Trump exists? He'll still exist after the protests...

Not long after the protests - he's 84 years old. Couple of well timed party poppers, and he might not even last the trip.

Funcrusher

Quote from: (Ex poster) on June 26, 2018, 08:30:59 AM
It'll only divide people apparently. Very centrist attitude. Drive for appeasement.

I fear that your new role as the scourge of centrism may collapse under its own internal contradictions.