Tip jar

If you like CaB and wish to support it, you can use PayPal or KoFi. Thank you, and I hope you continue to enjoy the site - Neil.

Buy Me a Coffee at ko-fi.com

Support CaB

Recent

Welcome to Cook'd and Bomb'd. Please login or sign up.

March 28, 2024, 03:23:59 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Bond villain strikes again, again?

Started by Isnt Anything, July 04, 2018, 05:48:57 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Isnt Anything

Quote from: biggytitbo on July 06, 2018, 07:24:03 AM
In the usual merrygoround of falae stories fed to the press, they're reporting today the Novochik was on a cigarette butt. Why would it be on a cigarette butt 12 miles away from where  the skripal where poisoned by their door handle? And how did it survive 4 months of rain, snow and sun?

ffs the park they were in was in Salisbury not Amesbury, you keep making this same mistake, they travelled to Salisbury for their day in the park, the Guardian article i linked above - why did i bother ?! - even drew you a nice map

here it is again
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/04/wiltshire-unknown-substance-leaves-pair-critically-ill-in-salisbury-hospital
(cannot hotlink the map itself as it wont let me)

sorry ..... i was gonna write that much more nicely when i finally got to come back to this thread properly, but you repeatedly stating this inaccuracy and then drawing specious conclusions from it is irritating the motherfucking tits off me.

Sorry again, but how can we take what you say seriously when you dont even pay attention to which fucking town they were poisoned in ?!

Dont get me wrong there are some very valid points to be made on all this including the ever-changing properties of Novichok (NOT 'Novochik') but for the love of God please quit with the 12 miles thing.

ZoyzaSorris

Quote from: Isnt Anything on July 05, 2018, 10:39:32 PM
the event itself or this awful thread ?

which i will be coming back to at some point when i have enough time to bang my head on a wall

The event, or at least the official portrayal thereof. Absolute motherfucking horseshit.

biggytitbo

Quote from: Isnt Anything on July 06, 2018, 07:54:01 AM
ffs the park they were in was in Salisbury not Amesbury, you keep making this same mistake, they travelled to Salisbury for their day in the park, the Guardian article i linked above - why did i bother ?! - even drew you a nice map

here it is again
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/04/wiltshire-unknown-substance-leaves-pair-critically-ill-in-salisbury-hospital
(cannot hotlink the map itself as it wont let me)

sorry ..... i was gonna write that much more nicely when i finally got to come back to this thread properly, but you repeatedly stating this inaccuracy and then drawing specious conclusions from it is irritating the motherfucking tits off me.

Sorry again, but how can we take what you say seriously when you dont even pay attention to which fucking town they were poisoned in ?!

Dont get me wrong there are some very valid points to be made on all this including the ever-changing properties of Novichok (NOT 'Novochik') but for the love of God please quit with the 12 miles thing.

Calm down mate. They don't know where they were 'poisoned', hence why multiple areas, most of them in Amesbury, were cordoned off. You should get in touch with the police, you clearly know more about the case than they do.

metaltax

Quote from: biggytitbo on July 06, 2018, 07:00:24 AM

So do you think its unreasonable, if thwy are free people, for some independent third party just to talk to them and ask some basic questions about their welfare and what happened? I'm not asking she gets her tits out for a centre spread in the sun.

Yes. It's not the business of anyone except the appropriate authorities.

biggytitbo

I commented on the guardian thread about this yesterday and asked why the guardian weren't doing more investigative reporting into the incident and pointed out women on cctv with the red bag, and the questions about where Nick Bailey was poisoned as questions they might try and find answers to for us, and they deleted my comment.


Is that against their moderation rules?

biggytitbo

Quote from: metaltax on July 06, 2018, 08:17:33 AM
Yes. It's not the business of anyone except the appropriate authorities.


What isnt? Are the Skripals free to go or not? Its a really simple question, if they are then what do ';appropriate authorities' have to do with anything? Why can't a third party verify this and that they're OK?

metaltax

Quote from: biggytitbo on July 06, 2018, 08:19:00 AM

What isnt? Are the Skripals free to go or not? Its a really simple question, if they are then what do ';appropriate authorities' have to do with anything? Why can't a third party verify this and that they're OK?

Their welfare is nobody else's business, that's what.

biggytitbo

Quote from: metaltax on July 06, 2018, 08:25:20 AM
Their welfare is nobody else's business, that's what.


How do you know what their welfare is? Thats the point. Everything we know is getting filtered through the British government who are not a disinterested party, reliable or unbiased. Imagine if Putin was holding two British subjects under such close control, and the only reassurances we had that they were ok and not been held under duress were tightly stage managed Kremlin press releases. That'd be fine wouldn't it?


Whats their welfare got to do with an independent third party verifying that they are free to go?

Paul Calf

Where are you pulling these talking points from, biggy?

Crisps?

Quote from: Buelligan on July 05, 2018, 10:53:20 PM
And what about Yulia (or her father)?  If you were either one and let's say, you already had experienced being poisoned by someone (maybe you're not even sure who), would you want to wade in and say your bit or would you prefer to be allowed to remain silent and avoid saying something that might make you even more of a target?

Even if they don't want to offer an opinion on whodunnit, which is fair enough, the Kremlin repeatedly claims they're being held against their will and that Yulia wants to return home. (In fact I'm pretty sure she said the latter herself in her video statement; presumably she meant after the current regime that tried to murder her is gone.)

If she can talk about that in a statement approved by the government, I don't see why she can't do it freely in a way not controlled by any government. In fact, as I said, I'd have thought the UK government would leap at the chance to destroy Russia's lies in such a way.

Quote from: metaltaxTheir welfare is nobody else's business, that's what.

The welfare of people held by state authorities is not the business of anyone but the state authorities holding them. Just when you think you've heard it all.

Alberon

Who would you consider an independent third party able to talk to the Skripals, Biggy?

Buelligan

Quote from: Crisps? on July 06, 2018, 09:32:12 AM
Even if they don't want to offer an opinion on whodunnit, which is fair enough, the Kremlin repeatedly claims they're being held against their will and that Yulia wants to return home. (In fact I'm pretty sure she said the latter herself in her video statement; presumably she meant after the current regime that tried to murder her is gone.)

If she can talk about that in a statement approved by the government, I don't see why she can't do it freely in a way not controlled by any government. In fact, as I said, I'd have thought the UK government would leap at the chance to destroy Russia's lies in such a way.

The welfare of people held by state authorities is not the business of anyone but the state authorities holding them. Just when you think you've heard it all.

I don't simply mean an opinion on who did it.  Given that she/they may not be entirely certain who to trust, if you were either one, would you wish to give any sort of statement?  Even if they say something scripted by the people they're relying on for protection (as they may well see it and they may be right in that thought) they know that those words will be precisely the ones that will upset the other party.  They are in a no win situation. 

Plus, in this capitalist world they are almost certainly aware that silence is golden.  Everything is more valuable if released exclusively and now there's a second episode, even more vacuous nose-pokers will be willing to pay for thrills on the actual inside skinny.

Pranet

Quote from: biggytitbo on July 06, 2018, 07:24:03 AM
In the usual merrygoround of falae stories fed to the press, they're reporting today the Novochik was on a cigarette butt. Why would it be on a cigarette butt 12 miles away from where  the skripal where poisoned by their door handle? And how did it survive 4 months of rain, snow and sun?

When I first read it the cigarette butt theory just came from a friend of the couple who said that Dawn Sturgess regularly picked up fag ends so she could have picked up one from the initial poisoning. Obviously this is flawed because she would not have picked up a three month old fag end. But I don't believe that it was ever an official theory, just something from some bloke in Salisbury. 

massive bereavement

Quote from: Buelligan on July 06, 2018, 09:51:48 AM
Given that she/they may not be entirely certain who to trust, if you were either one, would you wish to give any sort of statement?  Even if they say something scripted by the people they're relying on for protection (as they may well see it and they may be right in that thought) they know that those words will be precisely the ones that will upset the other party.  They are in a no win situation. 


So long as her father is still alive, Yulia will have to keep her mouth shut. Her life is in Russia, she will have to return home eventually but she will also want to continue her visits to England to see her dad, who presumably won't be allowed to return to Russia even if he wants to. He also has to avoid upsetting either side for the same reason.

If it's true that Yulia had only her 2nd phone conversation with her cousin on Tuesday, just as the latest poisoning is about to the hit headlines, then the timing of it really is quite extraordinary.




biggytitbo

Quote from: Alberon on July 06, 2018, 09:34:31 AM
Who would you consider an independent third party able to talk to the Skripals, Biggy?


Joan Bakewell.

Buelligan

Quote from: massive bereavement on July 06, 2018, 11:08:11 AM
If it's true that Yulia had only her 2nd phone conversation with her cousin on Tuesday, just as the latest poisoning is about to the hit headlines, then the timing of it really is quite extraordinary.

Yesterday, my work-shoes died, my hoover died and my favourite coffee cup split when I poured in coffee (all true  - I laughed at the sky for the sheer FUCK of it).  I do not suspect a plot.

biggytitbo

I'd say what they're trying to do is retain total control over the narrative of what happened, which is why they can't risk letting the Skripals or Nick Bailey talk to anyone outside of tightly drafted official press releases, even if they don't now what happened and aren't complicit the risk they might reveal something that causes the whole house of cards to collapse is clearly too great are this stage.

4 months on from a major international incident, we don't know the most basic details of what happened, we have no suspects, the British government has provided no evidence for any of it claims, nobody knows if the two victims at the centre of the case are been held under duress because they can't/won't speak to anyone and the entire British media has a terminal case of incuriosity about any of these extraordinary things.

And yet the British government have the gall to demand the Russians explain what is going on.

Alberon

And what secret information did the UK show that pulled so many other countries into expelling so many Russian diplomats?

Crisps?

Quote from: Buelligan on July 06, 2018, 09:51:48 AM
I don't simply mean an opinion on who did it.  Given that she/they may not be entirely certain who to trust, if you were either one, would you wish to give any sort of statement?  Even if they say something scripted by the people they're relying on for protection (as they may well see it and they may be right in that thought) they know that those words will be precisely the ones that will upset the other party.  They are in a no win situation.

I agree with that, but if the only way they feel/are safe is saying what the UK government wants, that essentially means they are captive, or trapped at least, and what they're saying in that situation isn't (necessarily) authentic.


greenman

Quote from: Crisps? on July 06, 2018, 11:33:11 AMI agree with that, but if the only way they feel/are safe is saying what the UK government wants, that essentially means they are captive, or trapped at least, and what they're saying in that situation isn't (necessarily) authentic.

Plus of course there in a situation where there only getting their information from one source, a lot of potential for manipulation there.

The general lack of focus on any kind of open investigation into what happened originally seems even more strange now doesn't it? I mean some kind of effort to track down those involved would potentially guard against any leftover material being a danger to others.

biggytitbo

Quote from: Alberon on July 06, 2018, 11:30:32 AM
And what secret information did the UK show that pulled so many other countries into expelling so many Russian diplomats?


Nothing, the UK has apparently provided no evidence beyond 'of a type developed by' to their allies. The german parliament had a hearing about the affair and confirmed this.


And by 'so many countries', you do of course mean the usual bunch of NATO countries who always follow the same group think when it comes to the designated enemy.

massive bereavement

Quote from: biggytitbo on July 06, 2018, 11:43:48 AM

Nothing, the UK has apparently provided no evidence beyond 'of a type developed by' to their allies. The german parliament had a hearing about the affair and confirmed this.

There was the door handle advice in the Russian pocket guide to the use of nerve agents, which presumably also contains alternate instructions to hide it in rubbish tips or soak discarded cigs in it for the purpose of bumping off people at random.

Space ghost

Quote from: biggytitbo on July 06, 2018, 07:24:03 AM
In the usual merrygoround of falae stories fed to the press, they're reporting today the Novochik was on a cigarette butt. Why would it be on a cigarette butt 12 miles away from where  the skripal where poisoned by their door handle? And how did it survive 4 months of rain, snow and sun?

intravenous drug users routinely use cigarette butts as filters when preparing shots of heroin. Is it a huge leap of imagination to envisage a scenario where these two unfortunates have discovered some material that resembles some hezza and decided to inject it hence the appearance of this highly contaminated cigarette butt.

Dex Sawash

Quote from: Buelligan on July 06, 2018, 11:11:09 AM
Yesterday, my work-shoes died, my hoover died and my favourite coffee cup split when I poured in coffee (all true  - I laughed at the sky for the sheer FUCK of it).  I do not suspect a plot.


<twirls moustache>

biggytitbo

Quote from: massive bereavement on July 06, 2018, 11:55:12 AM
There was the door handle advice in the Russian pocket guide to the use of nerve agents, which presumably also contains alternate instructions to hide it in rubbish tips or soak discarded cigs in it for the purpose of bumping off people at random.

Yeah the amazingly convenient and almost certainly imaginary Russian assassination guide they found down the back of the sofa once they'd settled on the door nob theory.

Funny to imagine this black op assassinations team that has literally vanished into thin air just tossing their left over novichok out of the car window as they silently and invisibly drove away.

biggytitbo

Quote from: Space ghost on July 06, 2018, 12:16:28 PM
intravenous drug users routinely use cigarette butts as filters when preparing shots of heroin. Is it a huge leap of imagination to envisage a scenario where these two unfortunates have discovered some material that resembles some hezza and decided to inject it hence the appearance of this highly contaminated cigarette butt.


This is the latest theory isn't it, that they were such craven addicts that they saw some 4 month old piece of something that might have slightly resembled skag on the floor and said fuck it, lets inject it. Then pop to the church for a pot roast, as you do.

Space ghost

well yeah if youre a very desperate, semi homeless heroin addict that kind of is what you do.

Buelligan

Quote from: Crisps? on July 06, 2018, 11:33:11 AM


I agree with that, but if the only way they feel/are safe is saying what the UK government wants, that essentially means they are captive, or trapped at least, and what they're saying in that situation isn't (necessarily) authentic.

That's partly my point, they won't feel safe if they say what the UK government wants because (presumably) it will piss off Russia.  Whatever they say, true or not, will piss off someone (and they probably don't know what the truth is either - how can they?).

biggytitbo

Quote from: Space ghost on July 06, 2018, 12:39:32 PM
well yeah if youre a very desperate, semi homeless heroin addict that kind of is what you do.


So you actually inject military grade nerve agent and are still well enough to travel home and have a pot roast at the local church? Novichok - the all purpose magic substance that can literally take on any properties you need it to.

Paul Calf

Is there a collective noun for a massive group of assumptions?