I thought Firefly was a bit shit tbh

[Gulftastic]

Yeah, but after season 2, Angel gave us

[phantom_power]

I thought Angel got better and better as it went on. In the final season it had some interesting stuff to say about morality and the futility or nobility of fighting for good in an evil world

[chveik]

Fred's death was the saddest in the Buffyverse. Illyria was a great character though.

[Gulftastic]

I thought Angel got better and better as it went on. In the final season it had some interesting stuff to say about morality and the futility or nobility of fighting for good in an evil world

It did in the second half, once they knew the cancellation was certain. Prior to that, they were under instruction to keep it more 'monster of the week'. The confirmed axing let them ignore that a bit and concentrate more on the arc.

[phantom_power]

Shit yeah. The episode where Fred dies is one of the saddest things I have seen. More so than The Body even. The fact that they state plainly that even her soul has been destroyed makes it all the more unbearable, and the way she lingers for a bit before going makes it almost too much

[phantom_power]

It did in the second half, once they knew the cancellation was certain. Prior to that, they were under instruction to keep it more 'monster of the week'. The confirmed axing let them ignore that a bit and concentrate more on the arc.

One of my favourite phrases, or paraphrases, is that if nothing we do matters then the only thing that matters is what we do

[Gulftastic]

Shit yeah. The episode where Fred dies is one of the saddest things I have seen. More so than The Body even. The fact that they state plainly that even her soul has been destroyed makes it all the more unbearable, and the way she lingers for a bit before going makes it almost too much

When Wesley was dying and she pretended to be Fred again. That got me.

[NoSleep]

My view of Angel was a bit different. I liked early noir Angel, hated the end of season 2 after really liking it up to that point, thought seasons 3 and 4 were a bit blah, quite liked the final season. But not seen any of it for years and years.

Yeah, that's my remembrance of Angel, too; began well and then squandered whatever it was that kept me watching. I vaguely remember an Irish character being killed off or disappearing and that was the end of it.

[mothman]

That was a bit tragic. He was let go for drug use, and it later killed him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Quinn

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

I haven't watched Firefly/Serenity in at least a few years but, the last time I did, I liked it. I was never that taken with Buffy/Angel, so I regarded Firefly with some skepticism (especially all the comparisons to Cowboy Bebop, of which I was a big fan). Eventually though, my best friend borrowed the box set off a colleague and told me that it was worth watching - he was not wrong. After that I bought Serenity on DVD and found that to be even better.

There are things I don't like about the show, mainly relating to budgetary restrictions, which is probably half the reason why I like the film more. It's hard to feel like they're in a whole solar system, when nearly every planet they visit looks the same. The swearing in Mandarin is irritating and barely even makes sense, given that we see almost no trace of Chinese culture (or people) otherwise. Most of the supporting actors are terrible - the bloke that Malcolm has a sword duel with might well be the worst actor I've ever seen.

These (mostly minor) gripes aside, the main cast are all good and I could have happily watched them potter about for another few series.

Quite an idiosyncratic career that Whedon's had: Buffy went from a flop film to two successful telly series; then Firefly went the opposite direction, minus any of the success; then he had a mega hit with Avengers, that spun off into a far less successful (though eventually rather good) telly show.

Quite enjoyed [Cowboy Bebob] when I watched it. I made the mistake of buying the DVD collection off of ebay, the subtitles where useless. Had to download a fansubbed one.

Watch the English dub. It's reet good and makes it easier to appreciate the visuals.

[Zetetic]

The 'Mandarin' is close to unintelligible, I thought. (A minor point, I appreciate.)

Nice that we had it, in retrospect it probably was enough.

[phantom_power]

I don't know. I think Objects in Space pointed to how good the show could be, along with how Whedon shows tend to improve in their second season, often expanding the remit of the show beyond its initial limited constraints (I am thinking mainly of Angel and Dollhouse here, especially the latter)

[NoSleep]

Although the seeds of what Dollhouse became were there from the very start. I think it opened out according to plan (albeit much ended up crammed into the second season that could have lasted several more).

[FredNurke]

The 'Mandarin' is close to unintelligible, I thought. (A minor point, I appreciate.)

A Chinese flatmate told me that a few of the crew were pretty good at pronouncing it, but that Alan Tudyk in particular was just hopeless. Also, he said some of it was Cantonese and Hokkien and maybe other languagesdialects as well.

[phantom_power]

Although the seeds of what Dollhouse became were there from the very start. I think it opened out according to plan (albeit much ended up crammed into the second season that could have lasted several more).

But I don't think you could predict where Dollhouse would go when it was being criticised in season 1, and on that vein we might not be able to guess where Firefly might expand given a second season

[NoSleep]

Indeed. I think we got a fair (but extremely truncated) indication of where Firefly might have gone, if allowed, in Serenity.

[Mister Six]

Shit yeah. The episode where Fred dies is one of the saddest things I have seen. More so than The Body even. The fact that they state plainly that even her soul has been destroyed makes it all the more unbearable, and the way she lingers for a bit before going makes it almost too much

If it helps a bit, had the series continued it would have turned out that Fred's soul wasn't destroyed and she would have begun to reclaim her body. Something like that.

[AsparagusTrevor]

If it helps a bit, had the series continued it would have turned out that Fred's soul wasn't destroyed and she would have begun to reclaim her body. Something like that.

I think she was brought back in the comics, something to do with all magic being destroyed.

[mothman]

I'm not sure how I'd have felt about that. Of course these days no deaths are final. But back then... it reminds me of how I felt when I recently learnt a sequel to The Long Good Friday was planned (written?) in which 'arold Shand would have survived his abduction in the first few minutes, and in a rather daft (but effective) way.

[phantom_power]

If it helps a bit, had the series continued it would have turned out that Fred's soul wasn't destroyed and she would have begun to reclaim her body. Something like that.

I've got over it now but thanks for the sliver of hope

[Mister Six]

S1E15 Durka Returns is where Chiana is introduced. As I said from there to the end of S1 is immense, and in the main interconnected. But skip the penultimate Bone to be Wild, it is definitely bland.

Wayhey! I fancy her. Cheers - I'll try from there on and watch it through if it tickles my fancy. The first half of the first season seemed like genetic Star Trek aping plots but with puppets; I remember it going bonkers with cartoons and clones and such afterwards so I'm confident it will align more with my tastes as it goes along.

[Endicott]

Wayhey! I fancy her. Cheers - I'll try from there on and watch it through if it tickles my fancy. The first half of the first season seemed like genetic Star Trek aping plots but with puppets; I remember it going bonkers with cartoons and clones and such afterwards so I'm confident it will align more with my tastes as it goes along.

Haha nice. It's obviously a long time since you watched it so I won't bang on too much but since I will always go on a bit about Farscape when I get the chance I will say this much. It ain't Trek. And I say that as someone who likes Trek but got very bored of its 'safeness'.

There's an episode early on in the run that I'm assuming you've seen (ep S1E09 DNA Mad Scientist), in which in order to get what they want, the group violently remove one of Pilot's arms and give it away as payment. Alright, so he grows it back again, but it's a very violent action taken against one of your own. I can't think of any Trek that would countenance it. You'll know that some of the original writers and creator has experience with Trek before they did Farscape, and they hated the Trek straight jacket. There's a time travel episode in S3 (I won't say which ep) where you think they've hit the standard Trek reset button, and then it's revealed that they really, really haven't.

[Small Man Big Horse]

It's just been announced that Whedon is going to be doing a new series for HBO - https://io9.gizmodo.com/joss-whedon-lands-a-new-hbo-series-about-fancy-victoria-1827582098

Joss Whedon Lands a New HBO Series About Fancy Victorian Women With Superpowers

HBO's still the name to beat when it comes to prestige genre television and apparently, it has no intentions of losing that title. The network's teaming up with Joss Whedon for a new series set in a fanciful world of social norms and secret powers.

The Hollywood Reporter has, well, reported that HBO has greenlit Whedon's The Nevers, a series about a group of women in the Victorian era who suddenly find themselves manifesting a number of strange superpowers. Naturally, the women become the targets of those who would cause them harm—and together, they set out on a mission that could change the world.

In a public statement, Whedon described The Nevers as "maybe the most ambitious narrative I've created," which, while very much the sort of thing one says in an announcement about a show they're running and writing, is still rather interesting given his work.

There's no word yet on when The Nevers is set to begin production, who's going to be in it, and when we should expect it. But given how HBO's really committing to genre TV with new upcoming shows like Lovecraft Country and Watchmen, it's safe to assume that the show will be airing at some point in the not-too-distant future.

I wonder how many of the cast he'll fuck this time!

[chveik]

That's good news. I hope it will be different from all the Marvel nonsense.

[Phil_A]

So with impeccable timing, Whedon arrives at HBO just as the whole channel is about to get gutted by the new owners? This is sure to end well.

[Bhazor]

Somewhat tangentally to the Buffy talk I just want to say that Alyson Hannigan is god awful in Fool Us.

[Small Man Big Horse]

Somewhat tangentally to the Buffy talk I just want to say that Alyson Hannigan is god awful in Fool Us.

And also in Date Movie, which is one of the most offensive films I've ever seen, it has a 2.8 rating on imdb and even that is far too generous.

[chveik]

At least she has still a career.

[mothman]

It's true, none of the Buffy or Angel or Firefly casts have really gone on to set the world alight. Hannigan is almost the success story just for being a main cast member of another shit TV show.

[Gulftastic]

It's true, none of the Buffy or Angel or Firefly casts have really gone on to set the world alight. Hannigan is almost the success story just for being a main cast member of another shit TV show.

Nathan Fillion has been pretty successful.