Men dressed as ladies in comedy

[Clownbaby]

There's so many of varying quality, you get the Carry On types where it's a massive hairy actor clomping about in a wonky wig and talking in a fake high voice, and then the really convincing ones like Reece Shearsmith in this clip looking quite pretty

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IQJNwvtkmg

I feel like the trick to being a convincing female character if you're a man is to actually not do a silly high girly voice

[Default to the negative]

There's so many of varying quality, you get the Carry On types where its massive hairy actor clomping about in a wonky wig and talking in a fake high voice,

The Pythons did that too, and I was never a fan of those sketches.

The TLOG guys do it well, of course. But they are among the few exceptions. Most of the time this stuff it is just naff.

I don't think the high-pitched voice, or lack of it, is the key. The guy on Mrs. Brown's Boys doesn't use a high-pitched voice and it still comes across as bottom-of-the-barrel 'man dressed as a lady' comedy.

[Clownbaby]

The Pythons did that too, and I was never a fan of those sketches.

The TLOG guys do it well, of course. But most of the time this stuff it is just naff.

I don't think the high-pitched voice, or lack of it, is the key. The guy on Mrs. Brown's Boys doesn't use a high-pitched voice and it still comes across as bottom-of-the-barrel 'man dressed as a lady' comedy.

Well yeah the not-high voice isn't a surefire way to do a good lady but I've never heard anyone do a squeaky voice and ever be convincing. To be fair, Even though I think Mrs. Brown's Boys is shite I think he's got the crass leathery old matriarch stereotype down.

I'm not a big fan of Monty Python (ducks behind table) and I totally can't stand the squeaky woman thing, even if it's meant to be bad, which it probably is

[bgmnts]

The Pythons did that too, and I was never a fan of those sketches.

Hello Mrs Premise.
Hello Mrs Conclusion.

Gets me every time.

[Sebastian Cobb]

It was quite funny in Life of Brian when it was Men playing Women playing Men.

[Default to the negative]

I'm generally against 'man-dresses-as-lady' comedy because I feel it inevitably leads down the path to hoary old music hall jokes. So for example, the man in drag will fall off his chair and we all see his bloomers. And that's the joke.

9 times out of 10, it would probably be better to just get a woman to play those characters. I don't say this for feminist reasons - I only want to spare us from such cheap gags.

[Clownbaby]

Yeah the bloomers and periods angle is naff as shit. That's why I prefer the League of Gentlemen's attitude to playing female characters. They're good at it and the characters are fully formed. And acting's just about being what you're not, convincingly. In the commentary at some point Steve Pemberton says something like "Being Pauline isn't a joke about me being a man in drag, it's just the character." (Not that I don't like drag and drag queens but that's a different thing when it's JUST that and they're not shoehorned into a programme) Also sometimes I think (like with The League or Limmy's Show) it sort of adds to the vacuum of 4 guys doing characters (League) or 1 guy (Limmy) if there's as few outside people as possible

[St_Eddie]

Well yeah the not-high voice isn't a surefire way to do a good lady but I've never heard anyone do a squeaky voice and ever be convincing...

It's the same with women playing men; there's a tendency for them to fall into the trap of doing this completely over the top, incredibly deep, cockney type of voice...

"I'm a bloke, I am.  Weeyyyhhhhhh!  Fooooottttie!  Giiiiirrrrls!  Laaaaaaagerrrr!  Weeyyyhhhhhh!" 

It's never remotely convincing.  I think that the key to being convincing at portraying the opposite sex is a subtle approach and not to fall into the broad stereotypes of gender.

[Artemis]

As always, the answer lies in context and intent.

[Clownbaby]

It's the same with women playing men; there's a tendency for them to fall into the trap of doing this completely over the top, incredibly deep, cockney type of voice...

"I'm a bloke, I am.  Weeyyyhhhhhh!  Fooooottttie!  Giiiiirrrrls!  Laaaaaaagerrrr!  Weeyyyhhhhhh!" 

It's never remotely convincing.  I think that the key to being convincing at portraying the opposite sex is a subtle approach and not to fall into the broad stereotypes of gender.

Yeah that makes me cringe more than men badly imitating women, probably. I like Carrie Brownstein as a man cause the pitch on her voice is just slightly lowered and it's more odd and subtle than a really over the top caricature

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldQGPwuHhkM

[Sebastian Cobb]

Morgana Whatsherpuss can play male characters quite well, because much like tlog it's all about the character and not the person performing it.

I got the impression with tlog the reason they played women was originally because when they started they didn't have the option to employ actors and also because I think some of the characters weren't scripted so much as existed inside their heads.

[Clownbaby]

Morgana Whatsherpuss can play male characters quite well, because much like tlog it's all about the character and not the person performing it.

I love Morgana, she's underrated.

[lankyguy95]

I feel like the trick to being a convincing female character if you're a man is to actually not do a silly high girly voice

Absolutely this. The voice often feels like overkill.

And if they're going for the simple "man pretending to be a woman is funny" then I think playing it otherwise straight makes the clothes/makeup aspect funnier.

[Clownbaby]

Absolutely this. The voice often feels like overkill.

And if they're going for the simple "man pretending to be a woman is funny" then I think playing it otherwise straight makes the clothes/makeup aspect funnier.

Yeah, I like how Carol in Tim & Eric just straight up has Eric's normal voice, it makes her more unassuming and sort of vulnerable somehow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlSHYL9peVc

[Clownbaby]

some of the characters weren't scripted so much as existed inside their heads.

Yeah, they wouldn't turn out quite right if they'd got an outside person to play the characters. Their characters are so specific and odd that it just wouldn't have been as specific through another actor, no matter how good they were

[shh]

Yes Terry J did the pepperpot, but Eric could pull off an attractive woman (...)



Wasn't Pauline originally played by a woman on stage at some point? I think you need a man playing her to achieve the grotesque.

[manticore]

I think that the key to being convincing at portraying the opposite sex is a subtle approach and not to fall into the broad stereotypes of gender.

This is why Alastair Sim as Miss Fritton in The Belles of St. Trinians is the model of how to do it. No mocking or caricature, just subtle obsevervation of little mannerisms, gestures and speech patterns.  The man was an actor, I suppose I'm saying.

[Captain Z]

I'm generally against 'man-dresses-as-lady' comedy because I feel it inevitably leads down the path to hoary old music hall jokes. So for example, the man in drag will fall off his chair and we all see his bloomers. And that's Mrs Brown's Boys.

[studpuppet]

No mocking or caricature, just subtle observation of little mannerisms, gestures and speech patterns.

[Twed]

Louie Anderson as Christine Baskets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WlM3ygjloA

[Clownbaby]

Louie Anderson as Christine Baskets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WlM3ygjloA

I've never seen that, I'm proper intrigued now

[Autopsy Turvey]

There's so many of varying quality, you get the Carry On types where it's a massive hairy actor clomping about in a wonky wig and talking in a fake high voice,

How often did this really happen in the Carry Ons? Bernard Bresslaw posing as a beauty contestant in Girls is irresistible, but unusual. Drag in the Carry Ons was more often about the subtle observation of little mannerisms, like Hawtrey and Williams going undercover in Constable, or Hawtrey as Lady Puddleton in Again Doctor, or even the brief attempt by Kenneth Connor to infiltrate Glamcabs in Cabby. I can't think of an occasion where a man in drag falls over and reveals bloomers (although Kenneth Cope splits his nurse outfit in Matron to reveal black lace knickers), but I am a fan of bloomers, they're an inherently comedic garment.

Male and female impersonators from the Music Halls were also more subtle and intricate than you might think. Vesta Tilley, Hetty King and Malcolm Scott by all accounts amazed audiences with their nuanced observations and focus on character over stereotypical grotesquery. Likewise, Hinge & Bracket were enthralling, sympathetic performances, surprised you don't hear much about them these days, they'd be a dead cert for a BBC4 documentary/repeat run.

Python's Pepperpots were absolutely joyous, as were Cissie & Ada, Miss Fritton and Old Mother Riley. And has nobody mentioned Dame Edna, the funniest woman of all time?

[Phoenix Lazarus]

Generally as tedious and old-hat as blackface routines.

[Autopsy Turvey]

Generally as tedious and old-hat as blackface routines.

Blackface was never used as a way of creating plausible characters though, with anything like the breadth or depth. Male/female impersonation often seems like a form of subversive self-expression for cross-dressers and gender-benders, so it doesn't have those 'oppressive' overtones. That said, when it's done for a cheap laugh it can still be a hoot, whereas blackface just tends to look scary.

[Shaky]

Edna is an excellent example. She's a fully rounded human being in her own right, honed over many decades, rather than a man trying to get laughs simply for wearing a dress. Ditto with the likes of Cissy and Ada - you basically forget that it's Dawson and yer other man after a second or two. The characters completely take over.

The Kids in the Hall made plausible ladies as well. Even when the performances were manic it was never to make the audience go, "Ha ha, look - men in dresses! Funny men taking the piss out of silly women". There was always some sort of comment being made about certain female archetypes and behaviour.

So: intent and decent writing are important if you're thinking of bending gender.

[biggytitbo]

[St_Eddie]

Blackface was never used as a way of creating plausible characters...

I beg to differ...

The very image of a plausible character, right there.

...blackface just tends to look scary.

No it doesn't.  Again, see above.

[Clownbaby]

I beg to differ...

The very image of a plausible character, right there.

No it doesn't.  Again, see above.

"How long 'ave I got?"

This is one of my absolute favourite moments in anything. I proper cried when Maureen died

[smudge1971]

Coogan as Pauline Calf is the top of the shop for me. I bet that is what Courtney Love was on about with the whole Owen Wilson thing; it wasn't smack but Coogan playing hard and fast with Wilson's passion for our Pauline.

[Porter Dimi]

I feel like the trick to being a convincing female character if you're a man is to actually not do a silly high girly voice

I think that might be why I've always liked Chris Morris as Sukie Bapswent. He puts on quite a convincing androgynous-leaning-feminine voice somehow.