Brexit Discussion Thread number 3

[The Culture Bunker]

They're already accusing Corbyn of "running scared" because he's insisting on a proper debate instead of whatever Tory-friendly whitewash they've cooked up with the BBC. If they do pull out, I bet they blame it on Corbyn's intractability.

Not hard to imagine May (or her people) now wanting any debate to involve anyone possible to minimise Corbyn's screentime: get into Cable, Farage, Rees-Mogg, SNP, DUP, any other fucker, plus take questions from the audience.

If nothing else, they can spin it as everyone bullying poor Mrs May when they lay into her for being chronically useless.

[Replies From View]

Not hard to imagine May (or her people) now wanting any debate to involve anyone possible to minimise Corbyn's screentime: get into Cable, Farage, Rees-Mogg, SNP, DUP, any other fucker, plus take questions from the audience.

If nothing else, they can spin it as everyone bullying poor Mrs May when they lay into her for being chronically useless.

"SEXIST ATTACK ON BORDERLINE-RETIRED BINT"


That's the planned front page Sun headline for the next day, and looking closely I think it's slightly hypocritical that they're intending to go with "bint" there.

[king_tubby]

Project Fear.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/12/01/eurosceptics-warn-eu-judges-will-rule-britain-brexit-high-legal/

Eurosceptics warn that EU judges will rule over Britain after Brexit while high on legal cannabis

[BlodwynPig]

Christ, end this mouthpiece of madness.

[olliebean]

Fucking hell, I assumed that would be some spoof news site until I saw the URL. Brexit has just jumped the shark.

[Alberon]

That's a big step further into madness than Farage has ever gone before.

[jobotic]

He's right. I demand that my overlords be pissed up on room temperature Worthingtons.

[manticore]

Any 'solution' is going to be a half-baked mess and even no-deal would be deeply compromised by the impossibility of escaping the orbit and influence of the EU votex,

What?

'You can check out but you can never leave'. My understanding is that the idea of 'leaving' the EU is to a great extent illusory.

That's nice, but it's still incompatible with the need for a backstop regarding Northern Ireland. Unless you mean "time-limited ... with a backstop", in which case it's not really time-limited.

With a time-limited Norway deal there would be a backstop - no hard border - for the period specified,  when the agreement comes to be negotiated again.

"Beyond the five-year period, Mr Varoufakis said Northern Ireland could, with enough goodwill, remain within the single market with "nominal" jurisdiction and sovereignty from London.

"We need to be innovative," he said. "We need to create new forms of sovereignty."

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/uk-needs-norway-style-deal-post-brexit-says-varoufakis-1.3287359

What a mess.  It's never been easy to understand the full effect and wider ramifications of this thing, but it seems that it is now completely impossible to understand what any of practical options actually are are let alone what they actually mean.

It's such a relief when I see someone acknowledge that.

[Zetetic]

My understanding is that the idea of 'leaving' the EU is to a great extent illusory.

If you want to maintain all the benefits of membership, yes.

You certainly can leave; there's no good reason for the UK to do so by almost anyone's standards.

With a time-limited Norway deal there would be a backstop - no hard border - for the period specified,  when the agreement comes to be negotiated again.

That's not a backstop. The point of a backstop is what do you do if you don't manage to renegotiate - it remains in place until both sides agree that a new arrangement (that prevents a hard border) has been decided.

(In the current situation, we're supposed to be agreeing a 'new relationship' deal with the EU during the transition period. The backstop kicks in if we don't manage to do this before the end of the transition period, until we manage to do this.)

[thraxx]

Cox says he can't be held in contempt of parliament because the instructions he was given on the legal advice were 'too vague'.  That has to be the most mealy mouthed, get off on a semantic, excuse for anything ever.

[Alberon]

The government is also, according to the Guardian, considering offering opposition leaders access to the full document under Privy Council terms.

Don't think that will be enough, though.

[jobotic]

The government is also, according to the Guardian, considering offering opposition leaders access to the full document under Privy Council terms.

Don't think that will be enough, though.

What does it mean? That they can see it but not discuss it publicly? What is point?

[thraxx]

THE DEBATE IS ON.
ON THE STREETS.
THE DEBATE IS (DOOF DOOF DOOF DOOF DOOF DOOF DOOF DOOF) ON.

[Replies From View]

"Privy terms" means you're only allowed to read it while you are parked on the bog shitting.

[thraxx]

What does it mean? That they can see it but not discuss it publicly? What is point?

The point is this: "will this do?  will you shut up and leave us alone now?"

[olliebean]

The government is also, according to the Guardian, considering offering opposition leaders access to the full document under Privy Council terms.

Don't think that will be enough, though.

No, isn't the whole point that Parliament as a whole needs to see it in order to deliver a properly informed vote?

[thraxx]

The Bottom Line: Leadsom basically admitting the contempt proceedings should go ahead, but after Sunday's vote.

[Kelvin]

"Privy terms" means you're only allowed to read it while you are parked on the bog shitting.

I'm sick of your legal mumbo jumbo clogging up these threads.

[Buelligan]

Project Fear.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/12/01/eurosceptics-warn-eu-judges-will-rule-britain-brexit-high-legal/

The European Union's top court could be ruling on British affairs after Brexit while under the influence of mind-bending cannabis, leading Eurosceptic politicians have warned.

The European Court of Justice (ECJ) is headquartered in the tiny country of Luxembourg, whose new coalition government has promised to legalise the recreational use of cannabis.

Nigel Farage has warned that bored EU judges  will be "stoned off their heads on wacky baccy"

This is completely insane.  And even more so because one thick plank of Farage's whingeing about the EU is the idea that states within it can't make their own rules... And yet, here is Luxembourg.  Nestling right in the dark heart of the EU and making its own mind up and rules about whether bent judges can smoke banana skins.  If only Frank Zappa were still with us.

[BlodwynPig]

Rastafar-right

[Paul Calf]

Imagine still saying "wacky baccy"

[manticore]

With a time-limited Norway deal there would be a backstop - no hard border - for the period specified,  when the agreement comes to be negotiated again.

That's not a backstop. The point of a backstop is what do you do if you don't manage to renegotiate - it remains in place until both sides agree that a new arrangement (that prevents a hard border) has been decided.

(In the current situation, we're supposed to be agreeing a 'new relationship' deal with the EU during the transition period. The backstop kicks in if we don't manage to do this before the end of the transition period, until we manage to do this.)

I'm sorry, I'm aware that this is not my field, but surely the point is that for the period of five (or however many years) the soft border would be guaranteed to stay.

Do you think Varoufakis is being irresponsible here:

Beyond the five-year period, Mr Varoufakis said Northern Ireland could, with enough goodwill, remain within the single market with "nominal" jurisdiction and sovereignty from London.

"We need to be innovative," he said. "We need to create new forms of sovereignty."

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/uk-needs-norway-style-deal-post-brexit-says-varoufakis-1.3287359

Sorry if I've missed it over all these threads Zetetic, but do you have a favoured approach? Do you support a second referendum?

[Captain Z]

Rastafar-right

Bring back hanging karma.

[Replies From View]

Imagine still saying "wacky baccy"

Wacko Tobacco, we Michael Jackson fans call it.

[Zetetic]

I'm sorry, I'm aware that this is not my field, but surely the point is that for the period of five (or however many years) the soft border would be guaranteed to stay.

Very nice I'm sure. And after that? The EU doesn't want to sign up to an agreement that okays the introduction of hard border and the violation of the GFA. Meaning you need a backstop for the event of not being able to negotiate a replacement for any time limited agreement.

Varoufakis's suggestion seems to requiring tolerating a border within the (nominal) UK and violating the spirit of the GFA.

Sorry if I've missed it over all these threads Zetetic, but do you have a favoured approach? Do you support a second referendum?

The setting apart of strongly leave-voting areas into autonomous reserves and the urgent ending of these reserves' dependencies on a metropolitan elite that misunderstands and despises their culture - this is the only plan I'm aware of that takes seriously the Leave vote rather than disingenuously patronising them with legalistic fiddles.

Withdrawal of A50, by our elected representatives doing their jobs, and the setting up of a Truth and Reconciliation Commission with powers of lustration, for the rest of us.

[Alberon]

Government's amendment to the contempt vote defeated.

The opposition parties have won the first vote on the government being in contempt of parliament by 311 votes to 307. That is the vote on the government's amendment to the main motion put forward by the opposition.

[Alberon]

Commons votes the government was in contempt of parliament by 311 by 293.

Government caves and will publish.

[Cuellar]

It's like school this isn't it.

"I'm sure the conversation THOSE TWO BOYS AT THE BACK are having is very interesting"

[SteveDave]

I can't wait for the whole thing to be dropped and see rivers of boiled piss flowing throughout the once again United Kingdom. Briatan.

[manticore]

The setting apart of strongly leave-voting areas into autonomous reserves and the urgent ending of these reserves' dependencies on a metropolitan elite that misunderstands and despises their culture - this is the only plan I'm aware of that takes seriously the Leave vote rather than disingenuously patronising them with legalistic fiddles.

Withdrawal of A50, by our elected representatives doing their jobs, and the setting up of a Truth and Reconciliation Commission with powers of lustration, for the rest of us.

No obligation obviously, but I would be interested in your answer. I'm feeling around in the dark here with everybody else, maybe even including you.