Brexit Discussion Thread number 3

[biggytitbo]

That's rich coming from a man who clearly loves the free market fundamentalist EU so much he continually obsessively defends it page after page, thread after thread like a religious zealot. Nobody could possibly love anything as much as you do unless they were either a) a liar, or b) the very fundamentalist he accuses others of.


This by the way, is one of my biggest bugbears with the remain camp, even during the referendum most of them were relatively nuanced and heavily qualified in their support of the EU. Since then its become a deeply improbable love fest, wrapping themselves in the flag as if their very existence depended on it. It's so phony I wonder what's behind it really?


Is it just fear or what? Let's be honest here for once?

[Replies From View]

That's rich coming from a man who clearly loves the free market fundamentalist EU so much he continually obsessively defends it page after page, thread after thread like a religious zealot.

What?  You don't get to just invent things about people you disagree with.  It doesn't give me much confidence in your ability to assess and understand any of this when you come up with shit like this as part of your reality.


Here's a question:  faced with only two choices, staying in the EU or entering a trade deal with the US led by the lobby groups and private interests currently controlling our government, which would you pick?

[Twit 2]

Biggy would like people to be honest. Biggy thinks people are being disingenuous.

Let's just enjoy this moment.

[biggytitbo]

I would just like to know why since the referendum the EU has become something even it's defenders were less than enamoured with to becoming some kind of existential article of faith? What's going on? The way it's now defended on here makes no sense. What's really behind it?

[Twit 2]

Fucking hell.

[Johnny Yesno]

The Sorosian Agenda-da-da-da!

[jobotic]

That's rich coming from a man who clearly loves the free market fundamentalist EU so much he continually obsessively defends it page after page, thread after thread like a religious zealot. Nobody could possibly love anything as much as you do unless they were either a) a liar, or b) the very fundamentalist he accuses others of.


This by the way, is one of my biggest bugbears with the remain camp, even during the referendum most of them were relatively nuanced and heavily qualified in their support of the EU. Since then its become a deeply improbable love fest, wrapping themselves in the flag as if their very existence depended on it. It's so phony I wonder what's behind it really?


Is it just fear or what? Let's be honest here for once?

You've made all of that up.

[Johnny Yesno]

There'll be an ickle puppee thread soon.

[Replies From View]

Here's a question:  faced with only two choices, staying in the EU or entering a trade deal with the US led by the lobby groups and private interests currently controlling our government, which would you pick?

Was this an unreasonable question?

[biggytitbo]

What I've made it up that there's page after page, thread after thread of totally improbable EU defending on here? I don't think so, anyone can see it for a fact. It could of course just be some people like taking the absolute opposite view I do on anything, but I'm not sure even that's the case as I see threads I don't post on infected with the same thing.


It doesn't make sense as I'm sure before the referendum there was no such zealotry about the EU, nor qualified cynicism. Has it, I wonder, become a proxy for something else?

[Johnny Yesno]

Your mum

[Twit 2]

What I've made it up that there's page after page, thread after thread of totally improbable EU defending on here? I don't think so, anyone can see it for a fact. It could of course just be some people like taking the absolute opposite view I do on anything, but I'm not sure even that's the case as I see threads I don't post on infected with the same thing.


It doesn't make sense as I'm sure before the referendum there was no such zealotry about the EU, nor qualified cynicism. Has it, I wonder, become a proxy for something else?

Fucking hell.

Most remainers probably don't think the EU's amazing. They are, however, rightly worried about the alternatives and our government of cunts. CAN YOU WRAP YOUR FUCKED HEAD AROUND THAT?

[pancreas]

People's views that leaving is the wrong thing to do have obviously hardened given the shit-show thus far. That's it—no conspiracy, no brainwashing—just watching and despairing. People are now more likely to defend the EU against attacks because they know more about how those attacks are bullshit and they would more strongly prefer to remain.

We all remember Greece, Ireland, unemployment in the southern EU states. The EU needs reform, especially with respect to its monetary policy. We all know that. That is still factored into the decision.

[DrGreggles]

What I've made it up that there's page after page, thread after thread of totally improbable EU defending on here?

Maybe you should read* some of it.

*and ideally understand

[biggytitbo]

Thanks, that's obviously more honest. I just wish people would admit their excessive advocacy of the EU is ultimately political and their doom mongering is politically/advocacy motivated.


There was an interesting piece in the new statesman the other day about how remain might win a second referendum and the two takeaways were stop banging on about how people were tricked in the first referendum and stop doom mongering. Instead, try saying something, anything positive to the 17m people who voted leave. Got anything?

[Twit 2]

I just wish people would admit their excessive advocacy of the EU is ultimately political and their doom mongering is politically/advocacy motivated. Yes

In this post biggy mentions he would like other people to admit when they have an excessive bias.

[BlodwynPig]

Thanks, that's obviously more honest. I just wish people would admit their excessive advocacy of the EU is ultimately political and their doom mongering is politically/advocacy motivated.


There was an interesting piece in the new statesman the other day about how remain might win a second referendum and the two takeaways were stop banging on about how people were tricked in the first referendum and stop doom mongering. Instead, try saying something, anything positive to the 17m people who voted leave. Got anything?

A new series of Beasts on ITV and the return of The Flumps.

[Replies From View]

Thanks, that's obviously more honest. I just wish people would admit their excessive advocacy of the EU is ultimately political and their doom mongering is politically/advocacy motivated.

Incredible that in the same post as this fiction you're bemoaning Leavers being mischaracterised as brainwashed and "tricked" into voting Leave.  Almost as if you lack self-awareness.

Instead, try saying something, anything positive to the 17m people who voted leave. Got anything?

What are you fishing for here?  A "thank you for voting Leave"?  A cake for winning the referendum?

Just what planet are you living on?


And when have you ever said anything positive?

[Cuellar]

Thanks leave voters! Thanks for all this. I'm having a Wales of a time

[pancreas]

Thanks, that's obviously more honest. I just wish people would admit their excessive advocacy of the EU is ultimately political and their doom mongering is politically/advocacy motivated.

'What are you doing biggy?'

'Oh I'm just reconfiguring the world so that I can be right about the liberal elites.' * whistles *

[jobotic]

Thanks! Even the natural world is grateful.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/08/eu-wildlife-grants-brexit

Who would have foreseen that the Tories, whose brexit this is, wouldn't step up?

[Johnny Yesno]

Thanks, that's obviously more honest. I just wish people would admit their excessive advocacy of the EU is ultimately political and their doom mongering is politically/advocacy motivated.

Zetetic demonstrating what a total know-nothing you are stings, huh.

[manticore]

Cuh! You people and your 'cooperation'. You should take more notice of heavyweight commentators on international relations, such as this fella:

I'm talking specifically about the remain lies in the 2016 referendum, but if you want to go trawling through the past let's not forget the biggest and most important lie in this entire thing, the one from 1973 and 1975, when we were told we were joining a common market with some 'cooperation', when they knew full well we were actually surrendering sovereignty and decided to withhold that from the voters -



https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/acft/FCO+30+1048.pdf

Priti just wants to 'supervise important decision making' and exercise her 'freedom of action', m'kay?

On that particular point biggy was right though. The British people were lied to back then, and the EU is an undemocratic institution dedicated to the dominance of the 'free market'. It's just that the only thing worse than being in it is not being in it.

Also wouldn't it be better if the left Remain side made it clearer that it was still aware of the flaws in the EU and concentrated on talking more about the sort of reforms it would want to make if we stayed? That might give some Leavers more confidence that they weren't being talked to by a bunch of rarified liberals.

It might be easier to convince people that we should stay if you said 'we should stay because it'll be even worse if we leave, but this is what we're going to try to do make the EU a better place to stay in.' Like these people:

https://diem25.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/diem25_english_short.pdf

[Uncle TechTip]

I would just like to know why since the referendum the EU has become something even it's defenders were less than enamoured with to becoming some kind of existential article of faith? What's going on? The way it's now defended on here makes no sense. What's really behind it?

Rights I've had since I was born are being taken away from me without my permission. All for people who think "there are too many Europeans here".
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/07/to-hull-and-back-catching-the-zebrugge-ferry-in-brexits-shadow

You'll like this, it's about Hull. Your people. Like the article points out, a city built on free trade.

[Paul Calf]

Priti just wants to 'supervise important decision making' and exercise her 'freedom of action', m'kay?


On that particular point biggy was right though. The British people were lied to back then, and the EU is an undemocratic institution dedicated to the dominance of the 'free market'. It's just that the only thing worse than being in it is not being in it.

Also wouldn't it be better if the left Remain side made it clearer that it was still aware of the flaws in the EU and concentrated on talking more about the sort of reforms it would want to make if we stayed? That might give some Leavers more confidence that they weren't being talked to by a bunch of rarified liberals.

It might be easier to convince people that we should stay if you said 'we should stay because it'll be even worse if we leave, but this is what we're going to try to do make the EU a better place to stay in.' Like these people:

https://diem25.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/diem25_english_short.pdf

You might remember that this was what Corbyn did during the referendum debate and now every time he tweets there's a rash of replies bellowing "YES JEREMY BUT WHY ARE YOU HELPING THE TORIES WHERE WERE YOU DURING THE REFERENDUM #FBPE #FPTP #FOFM #TTIP #NATO #YOLO

Since the referendum far too many Remainers have been too busy demonstrating their cleverness and 20/20 hindsight by telling everyone else why they were doing it wrong to actually make arguments based on the inability of anyy mode of exit to address the problems that prompted the Leave vote.

"People didn't vote Leave for economic reasons". Well, you might as well argue that Germans didn't say "Let's vote for the NSDAP because of France's brutal demands for War reparations and their plans to seize the industrial heartlands of the Ruhr". People might not have given increasing inequality, insecure jobs, zero-hours contracts, the cost of housing, increasingly poor and overstretched health services, huge rises in homelessness, the perceived humiliation of being a part of a former Empire in the terminal stages of post-imperial decline and a political and media estate in retreat from the power of big capital as their reasons to vote Leave but that's what ultimately caused this. It's much easier to say "Im fed up of all these foreigners who've got everything while I've got nothing."

The problem isn't that no-one's listening to people's concerns. The problem is that those who are are drawing the conclusions that most suit their own agendas.

[Johnny Yesno]

On that particular point biggy was right though. The British people were lied to back then

I've not seen any evidence of this. On the other hand, the long list of lies about the evils of the EU has been linked to at least a couple of times upthread.

and the EU is an undemocratic institution dedicated to the dominance of the 'free market'

Zetetic has expended much effort in this thread patiently explaining to biggy why this is wrong. I suggest you read it.

Also wouldn't it be better if the left Remain side made it clearer that it was still aware of the flaws in the EU and concentrated on talking more about the sort of reforms it would want to make if we stayed?

I know that before the vote, I went on about TTIP and how we were going to need to do something about it in the event of a remain win. Of course, any leavers that engaged with it at all totally ignored the repeated caveat that we will strike a similar or more stringent deal with the US once we're out. And I feel bad for bringing it up since I was unaware that it was already dead in the water anyway due to German public hostility towards it.

I also don't hold the opinion that all our woes stem from the EU, so there's only so much reform I would advocate. It's a distraction. This government of absolute fucking cunts, and their predecessors, are the real problem and brexit is just the latest episode in their continuing campaign to lay the blame elsewhere. This is their talking point, and they are using it to drown out pretty much everything else, including the actual deaths caused by their policies. Interesting that biggy lets the tories off so lightly, eh?

[Zetetic]

I think even the most EU-zealous of us have repeatedly recognised on here the ideological and practical problems of the EU (even if we won't agree that the former is that its a universally and single-mindedly neoliberal organisation).

I'm not sure what that's got to do with responding to lies and suggestions that what we really need, as an alternative to the EU, is ... er... more neoliberalism only harder. (Except when it comes to sending the buggers back. No liberalism then of any kind.)

[solidified gruel merchant]

You've made all of that up.

Not really. Pro eu fanaticism has reached fever pitch among embittered remainers, as is evidenced on this forum.
Own it mate.

[DrGreggles]

the return of The Flumps.

YES! They should have stuck that on their bus!

#BREXITmeansBREXIT

[jobotic]

Not really. Pro eu fanaticism has reached fever pitch among embittered remainers, as is evidenced on this forum.
Own it mate.

To the rescue!

You've made it up as well.

There might be few twats draped in the European flag but not on here. You owning Tommy's march?