Brexit Discussion Thread number 3

[Cuellar]

I see Wetherspoons are still keen to tell people their owner's Brexit views:

https://twitter.com/bizziel/status/1073287706187309056

https://twitter.com/GreenElk_/status/1071839955343892481

There's yer fucking psyop propaganda

'metropolitan elite' fuck off cunt

[Johnny Yesno]

the 5th largest economy in the world

6th since the brexit referendum.

[Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle]

Direct representative democracy of the kind the EU is designed to avoid is a vital foundational part of building a more equal society, in my opinion, as is not been locked into a series of neoliberal structures built to facilitate the pillars of free market fundementalism and international capital, over the needs of people. This is very good on why this is not always an easy argument to make, but the represantion part is so crucial http://peterjnorth.blogspot.com/2018/12/brexit-why-we-fight.html

Cheers for the link.  I read it but maybe i'm being a bit dim, not sure how that would relate to you on a personal level. Is there anything about leaving the EU that will directly improve your quality of life?

[Twit 2]

Yeah the solution to to that is to lock ourselves into it forever via a supranational political bureaucracy with no democratic way of escape, rather than have it entirely decided by our own parliament.

We live in a globally connected world. You have an isolationist fantasy that is never going to happen. You are a dangerous fundamentalist who doesn't care about people suffering if it suits your ideology. It's a mindset that has proven disastrous all throughout history. This kind of information is freely available in proper books that you have to read, you might need up stop regurgitating shite off shit websites to make a start in this.

[manticore]

The trick is not to argue with him on the basis that he has power or influence,he's just an internet obsessive with a large axe to grind
and he chooses to do it on here .
He'll change no ones mind on here and no one will change his.This is his religion.

I've learned quite a lot from critically reading what biggytitbo has to say on this, and the links he provides. I can define and clarify my views in both agreement and disagreement with him. That's the case despite that I think he's dogmatic and reckless, and I think the there are many people on the Remain side who are dogmatic and reckless too. The liberal elitist snobs  monkfromhavana describes are a big part of why the Remain side is so alienating to a lot of people and is confirming them in their commitment to leaving.

Which is all why the left should be getting behind these people, who try to address the anxieties and concerns of both remainers and brexiteers:

https://diem25.org/manifesto-long/

[king_tubby]

Wow.

https://twitter.com/andrew_lilico/status/1073200950272294912

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

It's twitter

[biggytitbo]

Yes that's what all very dysfunctional systems do - they double the dose don't they, like Macron. The solution to the collapse of neoliberalism isn't an alternative political philosophy more suited to the conditions of the present, its to have more, stronger, purer neoliberalism.

More excellence from the always great Matt Taibbi on this subject here https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/france-protests-yellow-vests-768810/

The inability of pundits to make sense of the plummeting popularity of "centrism" is a long-developing story in the West.

Over and over, a daft political class paternalistically implements changes more to the benefit of donors than voters, then repeatedly is baffled when they prove unpopular.

I won't quote the whole thing but much of what he then writes about the end of history and the golden straight jacket applies directly to the EU.

Moreover, as even the Economist observed, even when the "straitjacket" did produce economic growth, that "cannot outweigh the loss of political sovereignty and democratic legitimacy that the straitjacket also entails."

These dolts don't seem to get that a gasbag like Trump only became a plausible political choice after decades of false promises and misgovernment by people who think we should be ruling the world in pith helmets, and lack the sense to avoid saying things like "What's wrong with elitism?" out loud.

Their evangelical insistence on pushing centrism — which is just a nicer word for "trickle-down economics" — is what got us into this mess in the first place.

We don't need a new front to make centrism cool. We need to move on from centrism, to something a little less elitist. Which is different from being elite, as most of the world seems to have realized by now.

Unfortunetly the fatal mistake of much of the left - let's move on from centrism at this historic pivot point by locking ourselves permanently into the greatest centrist body ever created.

[biggytitbo]

We live in a globally connected world. You have an isolationist fantasy that is never going to happen. You are a dangerous fundamentalist who doesn't care about people suffering if it suits your ideology. It's a mindset that has proven disastrous all throughout history. This kind of information is freely available in proper books that you have to read, you might need up stop regurgitating shite off shit websites to make a start in this.

We live in a globally connected world so let's lock ourselves into a protectionist trade zone that only represents 7% of the world population in the slowest growing region of the globe. Makes sense.

Also from the NOBS list, watch yourself -

Moralisation

[Depressed Beyond Tables]

I see Wetherspoons are still keen to tell people their owner's Brexit views:

https://twitter.com/bizziel/status/1073287706187309056

https://twitter.com/GreenElk_/status/1071839955343892481

Haha, I've just shat all over my pants. That's like Ronald McDonald giving an anti Obamacare message in his happy meals. Desperate.

[Replies From View]

Yeah the solution to to that is to lock ourselves into it forever via a supranational political bureaucracy with no democratic way of escape, rather than have it entirely decided by our own parliament US corporations and lobbyists.

[Twit 2]

We live in a globally connected world so let's lock ourselves into a protectionist trade zone that only represents 7% of the world population in the slowest growing region of the globe. Makes sense.

More regurgitated bollocks. Pathological inability to understand the world around you.

[the hum]

He is incapable of giving a shit about your thoughts/feelings/ideals. Why do ye persist?

[Head Gardener]

Brexit : The Movie

[Paul Calf]

When the scaremongering doesn't work, double down! End of civilization itself will be your next post.

There was an example of this posted in this thread. Someone was talking about their Polish partner being in tears at the way she'd been treated by the government and civil service as a direct result of Brexit.  The other example was from a Facebook post by someone I know. Your determination to dismiss the fears of people in order to sell your idiotic fantasy of a re-energised British Empire ruling the waves is disgusting. I really think you should take a step back and think about what you're saying and doing because you seem impervious to rational argument and incapable of empathy with people inconvenient to the narrative you've written for yourself.

[BlodwynPig]

It's twitter

No, no longer can twitter users hide behind that.

[Blue Jam]

He is incapable of giving a shit about your thoughts/feelings/ideals. Why do ye persist?

I'm really sick of politics threads getting clogged up by certain people (not you, the hum) attacking Biggy. Most of it just seems to be putting words in his mouth too- "Biggy probably thinks this",  "Biggy will be along in a minute to say that" etc. Jeez, get a hobby guys...

[BlodwynPig]

I'm really sick of politics threads getting clogged up by certain people (not you, the hum) attacking Biggy. Most of it just seems to be putting words in his mouth too- "Biggy probably thinks this",  "Biggy will be along in a minute to say that" etc. Jeez, get a hobby guys...

"It's just twitter CaB"

[Replies From View]

Most of it just seems to be putting words in his mouth too- "Biggy probably thinks this",  "Biggy will be along in a minute to say that" etc. Jeez, get a hobby guys...

Are people doing this?

[DeadBishop]

I'm really sick of politics threads getting clogged up by certain people (not you, the hum) attacking Biggy. Most of it just seems to be putting words in his mouth too- "Biggy probably thinks this",  "Biggy will be along in a minute to say that" etc. Jeez, get a hobby guys...

There's an element of that, but to be fair he posts in these threads more than any other poster, comes out with pretty wild nonsense, fails to back up his positions without just restating them, over and over again, in the exact same language, and implies that everyone who disagrees with him is some sort of brainwashed tool of the controlling global elite. He gets some unfair treatment too, but it's not as if people's frustration comes from nowhere.

[Cuellar]

I wish Tony Blair would shut up

[Paul Calf]

Yeah. Surely he must realise that everything he touches turns to Fuck Off You Cunt.

[greencalx]

ERG considering a commons strike apparently (which I take to mean abstaining on votes). I guess this is just more sabre rattling - they'll never vote against May in a confidence vote, so presumably this is just an attempt to force May into making concessions to them in order to get anything through Parliament.

ETA: which could backfire if May decides to put a 2nd ref without a 'no deal' option to vote...

[Emotional Support Peacock]

What's so wrong with being part of the metropolitan liberal elite anyway?

[Head Gardener]

[biggytitbo]

There was an example of this posted in this thread. Someone was talking about their Polish partner being in tears at the way she'd been treated by the government and civil service as a direct result of Brexit.  The other example was from a Facebook post by someone I know. Your determination to dismiss the fears of people in order to sell your idiotic fantasy of a re-energised British Empire ruling the waves is disgusting. I really think you should take a step back and think about what you're saying and doing because you seem impervious to rational argument and incapable of empathy with people inconvenient to the narrative you've written for yourself.

I refuse to be emotionally blackmailed by anecdotal stories about what might happen, weaponized to push a political agenda. Sorry if this makes me Hitler. Any large scale political change (or indeed any large scale change) involving millions of people will cause some issues for at least some people - that's just the nature of changing anything. If we used this as an excuse to never do anything we'd literally would never do anything. And perhaps if we cared a bit more about the millions of people left on the scrapheap by globalisation we might not be in this situation at all?

[biggytitbo]

What's so wrong with being part of the metropolitan liberal elite anyway?

Is it cos they fucked up the whole world?

[Paul Calf]

I refuse to be emotionally blackmailed by anecdotal stories about what might happen, weaponized to push a political agenda. Sorry if this makes me Hitler. Any large scale political change (or indeed any large scale change) involving millions of people will cause some issues for at least some people - that's just the nature of changing anything. If we used this as an excuse to never do anything we'd literally would never do anything. And perhaps if we cared a bit more about the millions of people left on the scrapheap by globalisation we might not be in this situation at all?

These are things that are happening now. Now. To actual human beings who live and breathe and work and pay taxes in Britain.

"Emotionally blackmailed"? Is this ignorance or callousness, biggy?

[Alberon]

ERG considering a commons strike apparently (which I take to mean abstaining on votes). I guess this is just more sabre rattling - they'll never vote against May in a confidence vote, so presumably this is just an attempt to force May into making concessions to them in order to get anything through Parliament.

ETA: which could backfire if May decides to put a 2nd ref without a 'no deal' option to vote...

A strike would stop the government getting anything else done and they could always decide to temporarily suspend it if something Brexit related came to the vote. Done properly it could totally destroy May's attempt to cling on to number 10 (I refuse to say 'in power' as she clearly isn't already) without risking a general election.

I don't know if the ERG can stay united behind a strike. The inability to get a confidence vote going a few weeks back shows it's a bit like herding cats.

[greencalx]

A strike would stop the government getting anything else done and they could always decide to temporarily suspend it if something Brexit related came to the vote. Done properly it could totally destroy May's attempt to cling on to number 10 (I refuse to say 'in power' as she clearly isn't already) without risking a general election.

This is as opportunistic as fuck, though. So right up the ERG's street. (I appreciate this is in the wrong thread; sorry).