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Brexit Discussion Thread number 3

Started by Dr Rock, July 22, 2018, 10:47:12 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Zetetic

Noting that extension likely requires the other 27 member states to accede. It's not something that Commission can safely so on it's own, is it? ('Safely' as in safe from legal challenge either from within or without the EU.)

Not impossible but not certain. Probably sensitive to whether the UK government of the time has shown signs of finally understanding the indivisibility of the four freedoms.

mothman


Twit 2

Quote from: Captain Z on September 24, 2018, 12:17:41 PM
LEAVE MEANS LEAVE rally, Bolton:



If ever a group of people needed cordoning into a depot, swept up by heavy machinery and ejected into a quarry-shaped mass grave, truly it's them.

My wife's uncle: spent his entire life banging on about leaving then died before the vote.
My wife's aunt: politically uninformed, reads the daily mail, voted leave because of her husband, has no house or savings and daughter/granddaughter the very definition of the precariat, total victims of Tory policy and with nothing to gain whatsoever from leaving.

Don't know a single person in my real life who voted leave who isn't either tragically uninformed or a cunt.

Bhazor

Clint Eastwood in the front row there.

Not to sound overly harsh. But I do genuinely wonder how many Brexit voters have died by now and if their deaths (along with the young people now eligible to vote) would be enough to flip the results. I mean I'd say easily half a million brexiters have died over the last 2 and a bit years and a million or so new voters. Certainly the majority of brexiters will be dead before they deal with any of the consequences.

pancreas

Industrial gammon production there. Worse hygiene standards than 2 Sisters Food Group.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

All the same, that's a lot of people to be in the Bolton area. A worrying number.

Can't those Asian gangs they were telling me all about bum and mug them? Cheers

DrGreggles

Quote from: Twit 2 on September 24, 2018, 06:21:37 PM
Don't know a single person in my real life who voted leave who isn't either tragically uninformed or a cunt.

I work at a hospital and know of a few people who fell for the bus bullshit and voted leave because they honestly believed it would benefit the NHS.
These people are neither tragically uninformed or cunts. They were lied to.

Zetetic

That's a variation on tragically uninformed, I think.


Twit 2

Quote from: Zetetic on September 24, 2018, 07:24:28 PM
That's a variation on tragically uninformed, I think.

Yeah, I think you'd have to be fairly naive and uninquistive to buy that lie if you work in the NHS. I can understand people who have no knowledge of the system thinking such things are feasible but when it's your own sector you should have a bit of awareness of the govenment's relationship with it (ie, they'd stop the NHS tomorrow if they could).

I should add that by 'tragically' I meant that as a reflection of the tragic consequences of not being informed, as opposed to the extent to which they are. You have to have your wits about you and know enough about our country and its history so as not to be fucked over, or at least not be surprised when you are.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/24/labour-norway-tories-brexit

Mason reckons Labour should back a 2nd referendum if another election is called

QuoteCorbyn's strategy to date – of spelling out red lines and opposing solutions that crossed them – was always designed to allow Brexit-supporting Labour voters to learn by experience how treacherous the process would be. The Tories had told them that leaving would be easy; it wasn't. They told them the new treaties would be done and dusted by March 2019. They will not be. They assured voters there would be no downsides to a no-deal solution. Now they urge voters to stockpile food in case it happens.

The gameplan worked up to a point. May's chaotic negotiating stance has eroded popular support for Brexit, though not decisively. But the process of learning by experience now has to be supplemented with a positive vision, reinforced by Corbyn and Keir Starmer spelling out a clear Brexit proposal of their own.

Paul Calf

Difficult to sell that over the plangent, plaintive tone of "WHYYYYYYY DON'T WE JUST GET ON WITH IT? LEEEEAVE MEANS LEEEEAVE!"

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Today's tactic by the government is the immigration card - distract the public with a headline about EU and non-EU migrants being treated the same.

Although if I was a racist I'd probably not like that, given EU migrants are largely white and from a Christian tradition.

A sad attempt to attract the attention and shore up the support of the bigot section of the Leavers who might be wavering at this point or at least getting lost among the complexity of...anything except being a racist.

katzenjammer

Quote from: DrGreggles on September 24, 2018, 07:21:52 PM
I work at a hospital and know of a few people who fell for the bus bullshit and voted leave because they honestly believed it would benefit the NHS.
These people are neither tragically uninformed or cunts. They were lied to.

It wasn't just the bus, the lies about the NHS went much deeper

https://youtu.be/LtlGN8wVnis

katzenjammer

Quote from: Twit 2 on September 24, 2018, 07:51:50 PM
Yeah, I think you'd have to be fairly naive and uninquistive to buy that lie if you work in the NHS.

You think 'naive and uninquisitive' people don't work for the NHS?

Paul Calf

Quote from: katzenjammer on September 25, 2018, 09:01:08 AM
It wasn't just the bus, the lies about the NHS went much deeper

https://youtu.be/LtlGN8wVnis

Comments are disabled for this video.

Yeah. Will of the people, obviously.

Norton Canes

Quote from: DrGreggles on September 24, 2018, 07:21:52 PM
I work at a hospital and know of a few people who fell for the bus bullshit

To be fair, there's been worse bullshit peddled on the side of red buses

Zetetic

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on September 25, 2018, 08:47:27 AM
Although if I was a racist I'd probably not like that, given EU migrants are largely white and from a Christian tradition.
People don't reliably draw that distinction, and are largely unclear about the EU's role in immigration - in my limited experience.

While I'm probably often trapping them into it to an extent, they'll go on about how the Poles are alright and that it's the Muslims they wanted sorting out by leaving. No, this doesn't make any sense - the conversion of economic stagnation to cultural threat isn't particularly logical ultimately. (That's being kind given many Brexit voters in the SE and personally largely protected from stagnation.)

jobotic

Isn't it that people think we can't stop the Muzzies coming in and destroying our culture because the EU won't allow us to?

Bhazor

Quote from: katzenjammer on September 25, 2018, 09:01:08 AM
It wasn't just the bus, the lies about the NHS went much deeper

https://youtu.be/LtlGN8wVnis

When oh when will the government do something about Nonspecific Fatal Coughing Disease? Literally hundreds of mid morning infomercial actors die of that every week.

mothman

So, that's it then. Game over, comrade! Turns out that just like the Tories, Labour don't give a shit what state the country is in so long as they're in charge. Frankly, I doubt it took much persuading by all those northern MPs to set Corbyn back on the racist and antisemitic straight and narrow.

So, Green it is then.

Replies From View

Quote from: mothman on September 26, 2018, 07:22:42 PM
So, that's it then. Game over, comrade! Turns out that just like the Tories, Labour don't give a shit what state the country is in so long as they're in charge. Frankly, I doubt it took much persuading by all those northern MPs to set Corbyn back on the racist and antisemitic straight and narrow.

So, Green it is then.

What?

mothman

Nothing, sweetums. Just another Blairite Remoaner out to oppress Hard Working British FamiliesTM.

Replies From View

Quote from: mothman on September 26, 2018, 08:02:53 PM
Nothing, sweetums. Just another Blairite Remoaner out to oppress Hard Working British FamiliesTM.

If that's what you're calling yourself - I dunno - but after learning of Labour's socialist plans if they get into government I'm somewhat stunned that anybody who doesn't want a Tory government would now piss their vote away on the Greens.

I'd just like to understand what you mean, really.  Is there a particular spin on things that has got into your head?

shiftwork2

Quote from: katzenjammer on September 25, 2018, 09:01:08 AM
It wasn't just the bus, the lies about the NHS went much deeper

https://youtu.be/LtlGN8wVnis

That is just tremendous.  My little department cannot recruit at all from the UK and now cannot tempt any of the previously extremely smart, talented and caring young people from continental Europe, all of whom provide front line NHS services in difficult circumstances.  Our most recent ad attracted nobody.  What a wrong-headed arsehole view of the proposition that video is.  I have never been so seething.  Soon there will be a fraction of the NHS that we need.

mothman

Quote from: Replies From View on September 26, 2018, 08:25:45 PM
If that's what you're calling yourself - I dunno - but after learning of Labour's socialist plans if they get into government I'm somewhat stunned that anybody who doesn't want a Tory government would now piss their vote away on the Greens.

I'd just like to understand what you mean, really.  Is there a particular spin on things that has got into your head?

It's hard to explain. I don't feel like they represent me or have policies that align with my worldview. I still loathe the Tories (I was even shouting at May on the news last night, I believe the words "foul harridan" may have been uttered); the LibDems I will never forgive for their betrayal in 2010. But Corbyn, and Momentum, and all those fucking trade union leaders, McCluskey and his ilk... ugh. So what to do? I don't feel a new centrist party is a realistic avenue. I know that my views are likely to be seen as inimicable to many here. Maybe I'm getting old, too comfortable, perhaps this is how the creeping insidious conservatism of later life sets in. I really don't know what to do. Perhaps Labour are the best chance in the long run. But their current strategy seems to be that the worse things are for the country, the better their chances of attaining power and effecting real change are. But this isn't a game, people's lives are at risk. We don't need a collectivisation famine, a Year Zero, a Cultural Revolution.

Zetetic

What are your Labour candidate's positions on Brexit, collectivisation etc.?

I don't think that the manifesto is irrelevant but on some policies, your MP's views might be quite important.

Replies From View

Quote from: mothman on September 26, 2018, 08:49:44 PM
But their current strategy seems to be that the worse things are for the country, the better their chances of attaining power and effecting real change are. But this isn't a game, people's lives are at risk.

Did you miss the bit where unlike the Tories or any centrist party that follows in their footsteps, Labour under Corbyn will be helping people whose lives are at risk?  I don't know what you think is being treated as a game.  You get to choose what happens rather than continue with more of the same shit (either directly, by voting for the shit, or indirectly, by wasting your vote).  If you want to call that a game then it's up to you, but why complain about the democratic process?

What gives you the impression that Labour are rubbing their hands with glee at all this?  How would you expect them to prepare (and show they are prepared) for a snap election?

I mean for so long people complain that Labour aren't doing anything, and aren't offering anything meaningfully different from the ruling neoliberal parties, but when they offer something meaningfully different people fling their arms in the air and reckon Labour are treating it like a game.  Can you appreciate how infuriating this can be?


mothman

Oh yes. Don't for one second imagine that I have all the answers, or know what I want, or want to do. But I'm not a LINO. I grew up in a socialist-leaning household. And yet I don't feel I have buy-in into Corbyn's Labour. Perhaps it's a tall order, a hopeless pipe dream, but I want to vote for somebody for more than just that they're the least worst option.

Replies From View

Quote from: mothman on September 26, 2018, 09:14:46 PM
Oh yes. Don't for one second imagine that I have all the answers, or know what I want, or want to do. But I'm not a LINO. I grew up in a socialist-leaning household. And yet I don't feel I have buy-in into Corbyn's Labour. Perhaps it's a tall order, a hopeless pipe dream, but I want to vote for somebody for more than just that they're the least worst option.

Corbyn's Labour is singularly the only chance you will ever have to make this change.  With this opportunity on the table, I don't know what anyone could possibly believe they are holding out for.  "Kind of what Corbyn's Labour is offering, but with these things slightly different..."  Well forget it.  After this, if we lose, the neoliberals will seize power of Labour once again and that will be that.  The dream will be over.

A vote for the Green Party now is an admission that you only want to vote in protest, never to actually change anything.  If you want to complain about treating things as a game while people's lives are at risk, point your finger at that.