Wrestling Thread: the New Generation

[BeardFaceMan]

I disagree with the statement that its wrestling for people that dont really like wrestling. That absolutely makes zero sense.

It makes perfect sense. Thats why they rarely listen to a crowd and change direction with a character and try and push on with their original plans. They don't care about that, they care about TV ratings. And they care about being accepted into the mainstream and being as popular as possible. Which means dong things that actual wrestling fans don't care for, in order to do what they think they have to in order to be more popular. WWE is for wrestling fans the same way Pop Idol is for music fans.

That's not to say that if you are a wrestling fan there's nothing there for you, just that it's not aimed at you, you're not the target audience.

[Timothy]

No, it makes no sense at all. WWE has shit shows and good shows. Same goes for NJPW, Impact and the indies.
For example I thought All In was quite mediocre. No proper storytelling and no build up. Bad PPV quality as well.

They don't care about that, they care about TV ratings.

Same goes for every single other wrestling promotion that's on TV or sells PPV's.

[BeardFaceMan]

Nope, still makes pefect sense. Of course other feds care about ratings but they try not to water down their product to do that. WWE will literally do anything for money, look at Saudi Arabia. And they are a PG company so they're going for the family audience so they're trying to appeal to everyone. Because what Vince wants most is mainstream acceptance. He already has the wrestling fans hooked, theres no need to appeal to them any more, now he's going after everyone else.

ETA and of course Vince was responsible for the phrases 'sports entertainment' and 'superstar'. That tells you what he thinks of wrestling and wrestlers.

[Timothy]

That there's no need to appeal to wrestling fans anymore because they are already hooked is also BS. With that you're saying that we don't care what's on WWE tv, we will watch nonetheless. Couldn't be further from the truth.

Saying that WWE is wrestling for people that don't really like wrestling is just an ignorant statement to make. There are tons of great wrestling matches on all shows. NXT is gold. Who cares if they're called entertainers or wrestling. As long as I can see great matches as Gargano vs Ciampa or Rollins vs Styles or Mysterio vs Almas I couldn't care less.

[BeardFaceMan]

That there's no need to appeal to wrestling fans anymore because they are already hooked is also BS. With that you're saying that we don't care what's on WWE tv, we will watch nonetheless. Couldn't be further from the truth.

No it isnt, its exactly whats happening, people watching for nostalgia, watching because theyve watched for a long time and think WWE is wrestling, watching because its a social thing, just look at some of the posts in this thread, people acknowledging they put up with a load of dogshit because there might be one or two decent matches on a card. After all the bullshit WWE has pulled if youre still watching then yes, you are absolutely watching nonetheless.

[sevendaughters]

For example I thought All In was quite mediocre. No proper storytelling and no build up.

I'm no Cody/Young Bucks fan but this is patently false. The Aldis/Cody feud not only had loads of David Lagana-produced promo videos, but it drew on one of the participant's own father as a signifier for importance. Similarly the Amell-Daniels match had some great back and forth promos and build too. Sure there were some things that were built as 'dream matches' but they don't need build really, like, it's just great that Omega v Pentagon exists.

I agree with BeardFaceMan. WWE is not aimed at "wrestling fans" which is not to say "wrestling fans" can't enjoy it. It is primarily for children, casuals, and a global market, which flies in the face of wrestling's historical existence as a regional pursuit that fans would return to week after week. NXT is its cynical attempt to produce a 'quality product' which it does with some success, but it's as cynically-engineered as Raw or Smackdown. The fact is it is entirely true that WWE fans (not wrestling fans) will just watch anything and you don't care, because you're still all here and there has been no real great period since the failed Invasion, only patches of greatness that had to be done under Vince's nose (Smackdown Six) or under extreme duress (Bryan push).

[BeardFaceMan]

Saying that WWE is wrestling for people that don't really like wrestling is just an ignorant statement to make.

Not really, I've been watching WWE/F for 30 years. Well, until recently.

There are tons of great wrestling matches on all shows.

In isolation, that usually make little sense in the context of a storyline and those are usually good matches because of the wrestlers, not because of the booking. Tons? That's a stretch, even for the most ardent WWE fan.

Who cares if they're called entertainers or wrestling.

The wrestlers do.

As long as I can see great matches as Gargano vs Ciampa or Rollins vs Styles or Mysterio vs Almas I couldn't care less.

Which contradicts your first paragraph and agrees with what I'm saying, you will put up with anything on WWE tv as long as you get one or two good matches out of it.

The fact is it is entirely true that WWE fans (not wrestling fans) will just watch anything and you don't care, because you're still all here and there has been no real great period since the failed Invasion, only patches of greatness that had to be done under Vince's nose (Smackdown Six) or under extreme duress (Bryan push).

A fucking men.

[Utter Shit]

That there's no need to appeal to wrestling fans anymore because they are already hooked is also BS.

I'm not sure it is TBH. I mean...at this point the output has been not just underwhelming but consistently terrible for, depending on your mileage...a few years I'd say? And most long-term fans don't dispute this. The ratings are never going to completely tank because there are some people that still enjoy it, plus kids who don't really have any quality control or awareness of how good it used to be...but the general consensus among long-term fans is that it's been terrible for a long time, yet the ratings aren't completely going over a cliff. So logically that must mean there are a lot of people who just keep watching no matter how bad it gets.

It's insane how terrible it is at the moment, when you look at the reach the WWE has. The overall roster is as deep as it has ever been (while admittedly not having the main event depth of other eras) and they can get more or less any elite wrestler in the world they want outside of Japan and a handful of indie/Japan-loyalists. There is no excuse for putting out such a shoddy, boring product when everything is in their favour.

[Ja'moke]

"WWE is wrestling for people who don't like the wrestling" is the most obnoxious thing I've ever seen posted in this thread.

It doesn't even make sense because wrestling encompasses so many things. Wrestling to me isn't just work-rate. It's character, it's flamboyancy, drama, comedy, amazing feats of athleticism, over the top stories, grand spectacle, shocking moments, emotional moments, and so on. No one company is more wrestling than another.

Also, it's not like any other company is consistently putting out A+ material every show. Other companies have their flaws too.

[New Jack]

I still watch and enjoy Smackdown, Raw can get fucked. I'm a wrestling fan.

If WWE includes NXT, as well as UK and the odd tournament like the Mae Young Classic it is for wrestling fans. I'm probably more of a Network fan than a fan of the company!

If you're gonna saw WWE is shit you should just explicitly say WWE RAW is shit because it is. But even lowly ol 205 Live is closer to a wrestling show than mere entertainment.

IMO the only thing holding them back is creative. Boy, you'd think with their finances in such shape they'd feel free to experiment a bit. But no, you even see the same shoulder into post bump every match, the creative is stagnant

God, Vince will never retire. He will just die. Just terrified Steph will uphold her father's vision. I was watching the Paul Heyman documentary and she was even on that, acting like she was qualified to say what Heyman is good at, and why he's such a creative genius. Fuck off love, seguing from ECW to Omniscient Talking Head Steph was the future of this company: McMahons everywhere.

[Ja'moke]

As I said previously, NXT has been the most consistently entertaining wrestling show this year. Everything has been clicking, from the match quality, to the characters, to the storylines. The TakeOver War Games card looks absolutely insane.

Just in the past couple of weeks, Evolution was a brilliant ppv, not a bad match on the card, and a potential MOTY from Becky and Charlotte. Raw had Drew v Kurt which had really good storytelling and put Drew over massively. And Smackdown had Usos v New Day and Almas v Mysterio, both of which were top quality matches. Smackdown also had Shane getting showered in boos, Miz & Bryan delivering some nice comedy moments, another stellar Becky promo plus surprise debut, and solid Joe v Hardy match.

[BeardFaceMan]

"WWE is wrestling for people who don't like the wrestling" is the most obnoxious thing I've ever seen posted in this thread.

It may be obnoxious, it doesnt stop it being true though, in the same way Pop Idol isnt made for fans of music, its for casuals.

[New Jack]

It may be obnoxious, it doesnt stop it being true though, in the same way Pop Idol isnt made for fans of music, its for casuals.

According to Meltzer, the WWE fan base is essentially hard core fans at this point. But maybe they're WWE hardcores which is worrying!

[Ja'moke]

It may be obnoxious, it doesnt stop it being true though, in the same way Pop Idol isnt made for fans of music, its for casuals.

Just because you're sat on your high horse doesn't make your opinion fact.

[sevendaughters]

Wrestling to me isn't just work-rate. It's character, it's flamboyancy, drama, comedy, amazing feats of athleticism, over the top stories, grand spectacle, shocking moments, emotional moments, and so on.

No one denies this. The point is that WWE aren't doing these things well. Their matches are rote, their scripts suck, it reeks of corporate speak and think, and now they've got a Saudi murder down their shirt.

[New Jack]

Tags: are you not sports-entertained?

[Ja'moke]

No one denies this. The point is that WWE aren't doing these things well. Their matches are rote, their scripts suck, it reeks of corporate speak and think, and now they've got a Saudi murder down their shirt.

Some of their matches are rote. Some of their scripts suck.

And as I said, NXT have done all those things brilliantly all year.

[Timothy]

"WWE is wrestling for people who don't like the wrestling" is the most obnoxious thing I've ever seen posted in this thread.

It doesn't even make sense because wrestling encompasses so many things. Wrestling to me isn't just work-rate. It's character, it's flamboyancy, drama, comedy, amazing feats of athleticism, over the top stories, grand spectacle, shocking moments, emotional moments, and so on. No one company is more wrestling than another.

Also, it's not like any other company is consistently putting out A+ material every show. Other companies have their flaws too.

Exactly my point. Well said. Couldnt agree more.

[BeardFaceMan]

Most, not some. And as I said, just because WWE isnt for wrestling fans it doesnt mean there isnt anything there for wrestling fans to enjoy. Its not me being on a high horse, its just me observing some facts, as have been pointed out by other posters. No need to get pissy because I insulted something you enjoy. You can still enjoy trash while acknowledging its trash and not trying to pretend everything is great and its an amazing product when it blatently isnt.

[Timothy]

It may be obnoxious, it doesnt stop it being true though, in the same way Pop Idol isnt made for fans of music, its for casuals.

No it isnt. Saying pop idol isnt made for fans of music is just as obnoxious and utter nonsense. You are acting like you decide whats music and wrestling and whatsnot. That irritates us.

And no. You arent observing facts, youre just stating your opinion. That its trash is just your opinion. Nothing more nothing less.

[Utter Shit]

But it's true that Pop Idol wasn't for music fans, isn't it? It's not (necessarily) a criticism, Pop Idol was a light entertainment show rather than really aimed at music fans, in the same way Strictly isn't aimed at ballroom dancing fans. The format takes priority over the theme, hence the emphasis on dramatic chair-swapping in X Factor rather than the music.

I don't think the WWE/Pop Idol comparison is fair, a more accurate comparison would be with Pop Idol and the World of Sport wrestling show - that was clearly aimed at the early evening kids audience rather than wrestling fans. I don't think WWE is bad for that reason, it's aiming at the right people...the problem is it's shooting wildly off target.

[Ja'moke]

Most, not some. And as I said, just because WWE isnt for wrestling fans it doesnt mean there isnt anything there for wrestling fans to enjoy. Its not me being on a high horse, its just me observing some facts, as have been pointed out by other posters. No need to get pissy because I insulted something you enjoy. You can still enjoy trash while acknowledging its trash and not trying to pretend everything is great and its an amazing product when it blatently isnt.

Not most, because NXT has been killing it for almost an entire year.

I'm getting pissy because you're acting like a self-righteous knob.

I've never acted like everything WWE puts out is amazing. I mean, go back through all the wrestling threads on this forum for years, I've always criticised the stuff I don't like from WWE,  but there is still stuff I enjoy too. Because that is wrestling. It's never perfect. No company is putting out a perfect product. I'm not even a usual big WWE defender, just don't like it when people look down on others.

I mean, what SHOULD "real" wrestling fans be watching, almighty one?

[New Jack]

lol @ Observer

WWE CROWN JEWEL POLL RESULTS

Thumbs up 8 (04.3%)

Thumbs down 163 (88.6%)

In the middle 13 (07.1%)

[Timothy]

But that's true isn't it? It's not (necessarily) a criticism, Pop Idol was a light entertainment show rather than really aimed at music fans, in the same way Strictly isn't aimed at ballroom dancing fans. I don't think the WWE/Pop Idol comparison is fair, a more accurate comparison would be with Pop Idol and the World of Sport wrestlinf show - that was clearly aimed at the early evening kids audience rather than wrestling fans. I don't think WWE is bad for that reason, it's aiming at the right people but shooting wildly off target.

A shit I read pop music not idol.
You are right.

[Timothy]

Not most, because NXT has been killing it for almost an entire year.

I'm getting pissy because you're acting like a self-righteous knob.

I've never acted like everything WWE puts out is amazing. I mean, go back through all the wrestling threads on this forum for years, I've always criticised the stuff I don't like from WWE,  but there is still stuff I enjoy too. Because that is wrestling. It's never perfect. No company is putting out a perfect product. I'm not even a usual big WWE defender, just don't like it when people look down on others.

I mean, what SHOULD "real" wrestling fans be watching, almighty one?

Same here.
If the product is bad we criticize it. If we like matches we talk about them. Saying everything or almost everything is crap is just very ignorant and wrong. Smarky and obnoxious.

We like the stuff thats good and dislike the stuff thats bad. But if you dont want to watch WWE thats fine by me. Youll miss a lot of great matches. Thats for sure.

[Utter Shit]

Oh yeah I would definitely agree on that. Good pop music is fucking fantastic. Halsey is my shit at the moment.

[New Jack]

meanwhile, back in 2001:

The World Wrestling Federation needs to, now, commission a study of why they and wrestling in general are losing the over-30 audience so rapidly. This goes
against the company thought process, because despite what may be said publicly,
the company's target age group and strongest demo per capita is Males 12-24.
However, the age group that is losing interest in wrestling the fastest is those
over the age of 30, who make up the vast majority television viewership for most
programs (average viewership age of most network hit shows is early 40s), and
are traditionally the most loyal fans.

Wrestling really is cyclical!

[Utter Shit]

Same here.
If the product is bad we criticize it. If we like matches we talk about them. Saying everything or almost everything is crap is just very ignorant and wrong. Smarky and obnoxious.

I wouldn't consider myself a smark and I'm not particularly effusive in my criticism but I really don't get any joy out of WWE nowadays. It's not a stance, I just think it's rubbish. Luckily the WWE back catalogue is so vast that I'm never stuck for good WWE to watch that I haven't already played to death, but that causes it's own problems because going back and watching old shows from the 88-92 and 2000-2002 only emphasises how shit modern WWE is by comparison.

[Timothy]

I understand that. Theres a lot of stupid stuff on WWE TV. And I canceled my Network description over thr Saudi deal.

But saying that WWE is not for fans of wrestling might be one of the smarkiest things Ive read.

[Utter Shit]

Yeah that is bollocks. It's for fans of wrestling fans held captive by their own memories of when it was good.