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It turns out everyone is horrible (tw: possible GamerGate thread)

Started by Barry Admin, August 06, 2018, 11:30:15 AM

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Barry Admin

I've been thinking about this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-44950274

By chance - while looking for stuff actually about games - I'd previously encountered the Polygon article that was recently published:

QuoteIn the gaming community, women face abuse from "angry men, trolls, racists and misogynists", which is something Newsbeat looked into in 2016.

While looking at a YouTube video of Gilbert Gottfried doing his Seinfeld impression, I noticed a vein of tedious misogyny running through the comments:

Quote
TheHumanity!
The hole....
1 year ago
5

goober pea
That's the best Seinfeld impression there is
1 month ago
4

tommy k
Who's the unpleasant woman?
2 months ago
2

Dustin Nunn
LMAO! HE DOES A REALLY GOOD JERRY SEINFELD!
2 months ago
5

mikemoair
holy cow, look at that head of hair on that chick. if she don't trim "down there" it would be like Woodstock man.
9 months ago
3

Those are all the comments visible on the video at the minute, with the number of upvotes underneath them. "The hole" is a charming term for a female (radio) presenter which comes from the now defunct Opie and Anthony show...they would audibly recoil in horror at such, and their more moronic fans have obviously continued the practice.

I found it interesting that the lions share of comments were about the woman, rather than about Gilbert.

Taking these examples into account, I'd like to know why and how gamers have garnered such a reputation for misogyny.

(The "trigger warning" isn't serious, I just want to deter people from shitting the thread up with comments about how they're not interested.)


Funcrusher

I need to be doing some work today, but I'm not sure how your post goes from a BBC story that leads with a man leaving the internet because of abuse to a YouTube thread that has only 10 comments to gamers are misogynists. Not trying to be a cunt here. 

Icehaven

I read that newsbeat article a few days ago and I get a real stab of anger and frustration when I read about anyone 'quitting' a social media platform (or all of them) after being bullied and harassed there, because that's exactly what the bullying cunts want, it's a victory for them, and it's fucking infuriating to think they'll think they've won. I don't blame the leavers for doing it of course, they have to do whatever's best for them and if that's what they need to do then it's absolutely the right thing, and more often than not it's not worth the time and mental energy anyway, it's just as a stubborn, bloody minded type who refuses to be intimidated it really sticks in my craw. I can't imagine the feeling of having hundreds or possibly thousands of abusive messages directed at me so it's easy for me to say that but I'd like to think I'd dig my heels in up to my knees if it was me and do whatever it was that was upsetting them so much ten times more than I already was.
I had a conversation with a younger colleague a while back who genuinely suggested anyone getting harassed online (in this instance it was women and sexist abuse specifically we were talking about) should just stop using the sites they're getting stick on - simple! I managed not to rip him a  new one and calmly explained the myriad ways that wasn't an answer, it wasn't fair, it wasn't a good ending for anyone except the bullies and apart from anything else where does it end? Sexual harassment at work? Quit your job, simple! Getting comments in the street, stop going outside, simple! You should never let anyone think they've got the right to set the atmosphere of anywhere, a website, a workplace, a public place, and make you feel it's theirs and not yours, because it isn't so they can fuck off. And to his credit he actually got it and agreed, it was as if he hadn't even thought of it that way before.

biggytitbo

When Totalbiscuit died recently a surprisingly number of people thought it was a great idea to shit all over him online literally within minutes of the announcement, including people actually employed in the industry. This is apparently because he was involved in gamergate (a controversy I totally missed at the time and still have no idea what it really is).


But what ever happened to just basic decency and manners? Whatever he did he was ultimately just a bloke who played games on youtube, not Henry Kissinger.

Funcrusher

The reporting of Gamergate remains just about the most one-sided I've ever seen. Maybe apart from 'this looks bad for Corbyn'.

Benjaminos

Just euthanize anyone who defines themselves as 'a gamer', as opposed to 'someone who enjoys video games, as well as having other interests'. I've said this before, but if you hang your entire personality on, for example, liking Star Trek - you're probably a bit of an arsehole.

Not sure why 'gamers' seem to exemplify this trait more than others, given that every subset of humans has its fair share of cunts. Probably because they're all virgins.

Funcrusher


Barry Admin

Quote from: Benjaminos on August 06, 2018, 01:11:19 PM
Just euthanize anyone who defines themselves as 'a gamer', as opposed to 'someone who enjoys video games, as well as having other interests'. I've said this before, but if you hang your entire personality on, for example, liking Star Trek - you're probably a bit of an arsehole.

Not sure why 'gamers' seem to exemplify this trait more than others, given that every subset of humans has its fair share of cunts. Probably because they're all virgins.

That's what interests me, to perhaps explain the thread a little better.  Is it fair that "gamers" are routinely maligned, when all subsets of fandom contain mouthy obnoxious cunts?

samadriel

I think the maligning of 'gamers' comes from genuine experiences of them being cunts at least a little bit more than everyone else -- what other reason is there to malign them?  Snobbery?  I think that would generate a different variety of complaint.

Funcrusher

Quote from: Barry Admin on August 06, 2018, 01:33:51 PM
Is it fair that "gamers" are routinely maligned, when all subsets of fandom contain mouthy obnoxious cunts?

They seem to be considered fair game to an unlimited degree. The fact that they're assumed to be male and virgins has already appeared twice in this thread so would seem to be central to this.

Hecate

Quote from: biggytitbo on August 06, 2018, 11:55:17 AM
a controversy I totally missed at the time and still have no idea what it really is

Yeah, I still haven't quite got a handle on it. I think it started off as "ethics in games journalism", then it got twisted into "all women are cunts" or something, I don't know.

The sort of men who spend a lot of time on their own yanking their joystick tend to have an angry revenge boner for the opposite sex that has forever spurned their advances and killed their self esteem.
You sprinkle on some boys club instant bonding and I can see the appeal of joining the club.

Not all gamers are men, and not all men that game are cunts, but I think it's always been a very high percentage. I've played games all of my life but I've never felt that I had much at all in common with the majority of other gamers, when I go to gaming forums, it's a very alienating experience. I've never felt like I belong, even down to the sort of films and stuff they like.

Oh god, that's such a crass generalisation, I think I've gone full gamergatergater.

Eis Nein

The knicker sniffer looks up from the drawer. I'll start a thread, he muses.

Quote from: Hecate on August 06, 2018, 01:49:27 PM
Yeah, I still haven't quite got a handle on it. I think it started off as "ethics in games journalism", then it got twisted into "all women are cunts" or something, I don't know.

It was and is "all women are cunts". That's it.

madhair60

Long before GamerGate I was on Gamespy or XBLA hearing dyke, faggot, n**ger, p**i, bitch, slut, whore on the mic. GamerGate was more of the same, with a more unified platform. I would argue that while other fandoms/communities absolutely contain obnoxious cunts, none of them are quite so prevalent and forward-facing as g-g-g-gaming.

Benjaminos

Quote from: Funcrusher on August 06, 2018, 01:49:02 PM
They seem to be considered fair game to an unlimited degree. The fact that they're assumed to be male and virgins has already appeared twice in this thread so would seem to be central to this.

Well, that was obviously a joke, and I was trying to find reasons why they act the way they do, not why they're maligned in the first place. I'd say they're maligned because of their behaviour, or at least the behaviour that's reported on in the media.

I think it's probably a visibility thing. There are horrible people in every group, and those people generally shout the loudest. Gamers are also the kind of people who are online for a large proportion of their life, so have many more opportunities to post terrible opinions/racism/misogyny from behind the veil of internet anonymity - and by the same token, people posting on a game-related internet subforum are probably more likely to know the ins and outs of things like gamergate/4chan drama. If you asked my mum what she thought of 'gamers', she'd probably have much less to say about it.

Barry Admin

Quote from: Hecate on August 06, 2018, 01:49:27 PM
Yeah, I still haven't quite got a handle on it. I think it started off as "ethics in games journalism", then it got twisted into "all women are cunts" or something, I don't know.

It was partly about ethics in games journalism, yes. As I see it, the games media largely twisted it to represent it solely as a misogynistic movement to deflect from their own shortcomings. Which isn't to say it didn't contain misogynists, or people acting in a particularly unpleasant way to female game developers.

There was also a preexisting "gamers are toxic" attitude from sites like Polygon, which many gamers were absolutely sick of. They didn't want progressive preaching and to be insulted, they just wanted to read about games. Anyway, the idea that gamers are dicks was already out there, for what it's worth.

Then you had bitter fedora-tipping m'lady types like Eis Nein, who saw it all as a great excuse to engage in bullying and abuse - hopefully without any culpability - given that anyone even remotely pro-gamergate was characterised as a misogynist. You know those "progressives" who actually just love witch hunts and nastiness, as long as they feel it's seen as morally acceptable so they can get away with it? Yeah, there was a lot of that.

And so the lines were drawn, and you either had to be pro or anti, and a lot of trolls had a field day with such black and white distinctions.

madhair60

I have friends who were very much on board with the anti-gamer/games journo stuff at the time, and me telling them it's a bad look to be under the GamerGate banner given the abuse/harrassment/threats. So, there absolutely were people engaging with GG not directly engaging with/endorsing that hate mob. It was way too tainted for that to go on for long, but there were legitimately frustrated people in there.

madhair60

Aside from the bullying/harrassment/threats, which are and were appalling, I find it quite funny superficially that GamerGate's ultimate effect has been to utterly destroy any ability to discuss shitty games journalism, or corruption in the industry, without it being assumed you're a 'Gater in bad faith. Massive own goal there.

Kryton

Quote from: biggytitbo on August 06, 2018, 11:55:17 AM
When Totalbiscuit died recently a surprisingly number of people thought it was a great idea to shit all over him online literally within minutes of the announcement, including people actually employed in the industry. This is apparently because he was involved in gamergate (a controversy I totally missed at the time and still have no idea what it really is).

Including one of the female (former) employees of Areanet - Her response (to Totalbiscuit's passing) was sly and disrespectful.

Also she later turned a rather peaceful critique of a particular computer game mechanic into an over-the-top defensive 'how dare you tell me how to do my job just because I'm a woman' - even though the chap in question hadn't insulted her or made any comment of her being female.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/6/17541318/guild-wars-arenanet-jessica-price-peter-fries-fired-reddit

She was later sacked alongside someone else.

QuoteOn July 3rd, narrative designer Price tweeted a 29-tweet thread dissecting the challenges of writing player characters in an MMORPG. A streamer who goes by Deroir responded, "Really interesting thread to read! However, allow me to disagree slightly," and shared a three-tweet explanation of how narrative design influences player expression in the sort of games that Price narratively designs.

Price both replied directly to Deroir, tweeting "thanks for trying to tell me what we do internally, my dude," and retweeted his response with the caption "today in being a female game dev."

Quote"Like, the next rando asshat who attempts to explain the concept of branching dialogue to me — as if, you know, having worked in game narrative for a fucking DECADE, I have never heard of it — is getting instablocked," she added. "PSA." Price's suggestion that Deroir was mansplaining game development — an area where he does not have the same knowledge or experience — sparked anger among the ArenaNet community. She subsequently responded to those criticizing her on Twitter that "I'm not on the clock here. I'm not your emotional courtesan just because I'm a dev. Don't expect me to pretend to like you here." Price was fired shortly after.
--

Pretty thin-skinned in the above example.

There's no doubt that some female's in the industry DO get shit on, but like the example above, I imagine some cases are exaggerated and blown out of proportion.

Funcrusher

There was a certain amount of over-protesting from both sides, which accelerated as it became more polarised, to the point that we're at now. The original Zoe Quinn story didn't reveal Watergate levels of corruption but it did suggest a cosy inner circle doing what they please and not giving much of a fuck about rank and file gamers. The not giving a fuck manifesting itself to a much higher degree in the "gamers are over" pushback, where the inner circle decided that as they were on the uber-woke right side of history fuck anyone questioning them. The Gamergaters were just annoyed by what they perceived as a clique of puritannical SJW types taking the fun out of gaming. It's crazy to me that despite the fact that there were individuals who were the public face of Gamergate, including women, no one in the media ever seemed to bother to ask them for so much as a quote, they just printed the misogynerd rape threat sending narrative, as they continue to do. The two sides could have easily reached a peaceable agreement.

madhair60

I don't agree at all about the Quinn thing. I don't like her much, but her "collusion" amounted to fuck-all.


Funcrusher

Quote from: madhair60 on August 06, 2018, 03:52:21 PM
I don't agree at all about the Quinn thing. I don't like her much, but her "collusion" amounted to fuck-all.

I think that was fairly rapidly lost in the melee. She does seem to be a rather dubious individual, which was a factor in the whole thing spiralling.

biggytitbo

Can someone describe gamergate in a few sentences and why its so bad that people where talking about pissing on his grave within minutes of the announcement of his sudden death?

Twed

GamerGate put a cast of shambling hipster privileged 20-somethings with power and frustrated incel gamer edgelords in the spotlight. That's a lot to stomach, and caused a lot of people to take sides not realising that maybe everybody involved is horrible.

People + anonymity is a particularly depressing combination and I don't think we'll ever see the end of the comments Neil quoted. And the targets will be predictable. Imagining feeling the need to attack a perfectly regular person like that as if they're an abomination. Ugh.

Zetetic

Quote from: biggytitbo on August 06, 2018, 04:52:48 PM
why its so bad that people where talking about pissing on his grave within minutes of the announcement of his sudden death?
I don't think that 'Gamergate' is why people disliked TotalBiscuit. His involvement was perhaps an instance of his tendency towards prickishness under the guise of consumer advocacy.




There's a miserable conjunction here of the gaming 'press' being overwhelmingly captive to a oligopoly of major gaming studios, the bulk of mainstream gaming being - even by the standards of mass media - a hideously stuck medium, its consumers being hideously stuck in their tastes and attitudes (to the point where arbitrary technical criteria remain more interesting than gameplay, narrative or combined critiques) and the bringing together of everyone in forums that encourage twattery by their structure and outright celebration.

Zetetic

Did Gamergate ever produce an effective boycott? What other forms of protest did it engage in?

Funcrusher

Quote from: Zetetic on August 06, 2018, 06:09:22 PM
Did Gamergate ever produce an effective boycott? What other forms of protest did it engage in?

Did the opposing side produce one? Are gamers over?

Zetetic

Why would the 'opposing side' boycott anyone?

'Effective' is perhaps an unfair bar. Protracted?

Funcrusher

Quote from: Zetetic on August 06, 2018, 07:00:24 PM
Why would the 'opposing side' boycott anyone?


Well as I understand it gamers were over and were going to be replaced by a new audience of morally exemplary social justice joystick wielders. Don't think this happened.