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It turns out everyone is horrible (tw: possible GamerGate thread)

Started by Barry Admin, August 06, 2018, 11:30:15 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

j_u_d_a_s

Quote from: Funcrusher on August 08, 2018, 03:45:47 PM
The likes of Milo and Cernovich were just prominent because they had a platform - no one ever bothered to talk to rank and file Gamergate people. Anything more on Christina Hoff Sommers ousting?

Oh come on, Milo and Cernovich made their name via gamergate. Not to mention youtubers like Totalbiscuit (who did later renounce his support tbf to him), mundanematt, the ralph retort, kingofpol (rip), Sargon, Thunderf00t etc etc I could go on?


Quote
Whatever. I'm a member of the alt-right who's attacking the left, and yet pay my Labour Party subs every month. The Sam Seder piece is worth a listen for anyone who's interested

Again, you're getting defensive over things I've not actually said. You did watch that JRE vid I linked right? Stop turning yourself into a victim.

Quote from: Funcrusher on August 08, 2018, 03:50:38 PM
I'm not offering anything that could be called a criticism of a medium. I followed Gamergate enough at the time to comment on it.

And again, your only interest in gamergate seems to be as a way to attack identity politics. Ironically a key point of gamergate was against critics who didn't know much about videogames and here you are defending gamergate while... not knowing anything about videogames. Right.

Funcrusher

Quote from: j_u_d_a_s on August 08, 2018, 04:04:29 PM
Oh come on, Milo and Cernovich made their name via gamergate. Not to mention youtubers like Totalbiscuit (who did later renounce his support tbf to him), mundanematt, the ralph retort, kingofpol (rip), Sargon, Thunderf00t etc etc I could go on?


This will just go around forever - made their names via Gamergate, but were not really part of its inception. I've given examples of women involved in Gamergate, to counter your claim that Gamergaters hatred and fear of women was such that, for example, Christine Hoff Sommers was 'quickly hounded out' - citation still needed.

Quote from: j_u_d_a_s on August 08, 2018, 04:04:29 PM

Again, you're getting defensive over things I've not actually said. You did watch that JRE vid I linked right? Stop turning yourself into a victim.


Quote from: j_u_d_a_s on August 08, 2018, 02:27:43 PM

From your posts on this thread, you don't seem interested in gaming at all, just latching on to gamergate as a way to attack the left.

Quote from: j_u_d_a_s on August 08, 2018, 04:04:29 PM

And again, your only interest in gamergate seems to be as a way to attack identity politics. Ironically a key point of gamergate was against critics who didn't know much about videogames and here you are defending gamergate while... not knowing anything about videogames. Right.

I'm unapologetically a critic of identity politics, and so I was interested in Gamergate because their antagonists were pushing this dumbed down faux-left identity and privilege based hokum that was suddenly claiming the mantle of the progressive liberal/left. Also because it was getting such a ridiculously one-sided coverage from the media, largely because you can say pretty much whatever you like about geeky males without fear of reproach, which I find objectionable.

j_u_d_a_s

Quote from: Funcrusher on August 08, 2018, 04:28:26 PM
This will just go around forever - made their names via Gamergate, but were not really part of its inception. I've given examples of women involved in Gamergate, to counter your claim that Gamergaters hatred and fear of women was such that, for example, Christine Hoff Sommers was 'quickly hounded out' - citation still needed.

Yes but were there enough women to make a sizeable proportion of gamergate supporters? Quite a few GG friendly twitter accounts were found to be astroturf sockpuppets Alison Prime being the most notable https://np.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/3rm7cb/drama_unverified_but_alisonprime_may_be_a_male/

And again I say it's totally possible that women can be misogynists too. Gamergate was still a white male majority, because it has its token women changes nothing about its direction. CHS is a vocal opponent of modern feminism.

Quote
I'm unapologetically a critic of identity politics, and so I was interested in Gamergate because their antagonists were pushing this dumbed down faux-left identity and privilege based hokum that was suddenly claiming the mantle of the progressive liberal/left. Also because it was getting such a ridiculously one-sided coverage from the media, largely because you can say pretty much whatever you like about geeky males without fear of reproach, which I find objectionable.

Now here we get to the heart of it. You're anti identity politics because it criticises geeky white men (and I certainly am one). So you align yourself with a movement that was essentially a recruitment drive for the far right https://www.cnet.com/news/gamergate-donald-trump-american-nazis-how-video-game-culture-blew-everything-up/
Yeah, you're definitely the smart lefty here son.

Over and out.



biggytitbo


Funcrusher

Quote from: j_u_d_a_s on August 08, 2018, 05:00:40 PM

And again I say it's totally possible that women can be misogynists too. Gamergate was still a white male majority, because it has its token women changes nothing about its direction. CHS is a vocal opponent of modern feminism.


So if they're a part of Gamergate then they must be misogynists, because Gamergate was misogyny and only misogyny. I guess it's safe to assume that the Christina Hoff Sommers 'hounding out' citation isn't coming at this point.

Quote from: j_u_d_a_s on August 08, 2018, 05:00:40 PM

Now here we get to the heart of it. You're anti identity politics because it criticises geeky white men (and I certainly am one). So you align yourself with a movement that was essentially a recruitment drive for the far right https://www.cnet.com/news/gamergate-donald-trump-american-nazis-how-video-game-culture-blew-everything-up/
Yeah, you're definitely the smart lefty here son.

Over and out.

No, I'm anti identity politics because it's a bastardised version of serious left politics which is making the actual left look like shit and has to some degree driven the rise of Trump and the creation of the alt-right. This school of thought is finally catching on it seems, and not before time. And I will continue to object to geeky males (irrespective of ethnicity) being an endlessly legitimate target, about which any nonsense can be written - such as their 'hounding out' CHS.

Over and out indeed.

Maybe Barry can get this thread back on track.


Funcrusher

Quote from: biggytitbo on August 08, 2018, 05:13:54 PM
That cnet article is ludicrously trite

Every one of these articles is the same - Anita and Zoe versus the evil anonymous nerd-borg. The writer never tries to get a quote from someone from the Gamergate Reddit, or someone like the Honey Badgers on YouTube to get the other side of the story.

Lemming

Haven't read the thread so sorry if it's been said already, but Funcrusher, what's the meaning of Gamergate to you? Because you say it's a movement opposed to identity politics, but in the early days, almost every respectable person involved claimed it was about ethics in games journalism and a movement against the clique of shit journalists accepting bribes from developers and major publishers. Most of those people later dropped out when it became clear that the movement was not actually about that at all.

If it's a movement against identity politics, what's that got to do with video games at all? What would you say were the core goals of Gamergate, and did it achieve them?

Also, do you have a problem with Anita Sarkeesian and/or Zoe Quinn? If so, what is it?

biggytitbo

I presume that's where totalbiscuit came in, he was always on about the various ethical issues in gaming but i dont think I ever heard him make any disparaging remarks about women in the industry or progressive values in games. Seems a bit unfair to mix him up with all the toxic stuff to the point where you celebrate his death.

Lemming

Yeah, a lot of people were legitimately interested in consumer rights and against the demonstrable corruption and bribery in mainstream games journalism, and from what I saw he was one of them.  I used to be part of assorted gaming communities back when it started and I was also interested in those issues, but it didn't take long for it all to come undone, and when most people declared KotakuInAction and fucking 8chan to be the homes of "the gamergate movement", it was clear that it was no longer about journalism or consumer rights at all.

manticore

I'm one of the annoying people who knows hardly anything about video games, so I looked up 'Doom' as it was mentioned here and it sounds to me like a game to designed to exploit and celebrate people's aggression and violent feeling at a world which makes them despair. 'Call of Duty' the same, and 'Grand Theft Auto'. Am I wrong?


j_u_d_a_s

Quote from: Funcrusher on August 08, 2018, 05:15:28 PMAnd I will continue to object to geeky males (irrespective of ethnicity) being an endlessly legitimate target, about which any nonsense can be written.

Why tho? Geeky males aren't an oppressed minority.

Quote from: biggytitbo on August 08, 2018, 05:34:50 PM
I presume that's where totalbiscuit came in, he was always on about the various ethical issues in gaming but i dont think I ever heard him make any disparaging remarks about women in the industry or progressive values in games. Seems a bit unfair to mix him up with all the toxic stuff to the point where you celebrate his death.

I'll admit my bias straight up and say I've never been a fan of Totalbiscuit. To his credit, he wasn't ever overtly bigoted but he often indulged low level transphobia and defended a transphobic joke contributed by a backer to a kickstarted game. https://soundcloud.com/totalbiscuit/pillars-of-transphobia

And he was happily feeding into the anti-press sentiment for years as well as attacking Leigh Alexander repeatedly.
IMO self proclaimed consumer advocates like TB and Jim Sterling contribute enormously to the toxicity in gaming culture with their sensationalist approach.

I wouldn't wish what happened to TB on my worst enemy but him dying doesn't erase his past actions.

Lemming

Quote from: manticore on August 08, 2018, 06:00:54 PM
I'm one of the annoying people who knows hardly anything about video games, so I looked up 'Doom' as it was mentioned here and it sounds to me like a game to designed to exploit and celebrate people's aggression and violent feeling at a world which makes them despair. 'Call of Duty' the same, and 'Grand Theft Auto'. Am I wrong?

It's actually just John Carmack showing off by trying to write a faster texture mapper than Ultima Underworld.

But no, I've completed a total pacifist run of the first episode of DooM, and a near-total pacifist run of the second episode, killing only the Cyberdemon, who was a dick anyway.

Call of Duty forces you to kill people, but shows pithy anti-war and anti-violence quotes after you get shot, in a desperate attempt to counteract the sheer glorification of war it otherwise offers.

Grand Theft Auto is just silly, and mainly revolves around trying to flip cars onto buildings using the busted physics engine.

Zetetic

Quote from: Lemming on August 08, 2018, 05:40:27 PM
and from what I saw he was one of them.
Even if this was true, it doesn't stop him being a prick. I didn't come across the crowds celebrating his death that biggy unfortunately ran into, but I did come across a couple of people noting that they found him unpleasant, aggressive and arrogant, and prone to covering entitled prickish behaviour with the veil of advocacy. (Which, as Funcrusher would perhaps note, he's hardly alone in but it tempers the view of him as an embattled committed lone voice for true gamers or the like.)

Zetetic

Quote from: j_u_d_a_s on August 08, 2018, 06:04:05 PM
Jim Sterling contribute enormously to the toxicity in gaming culture with their sensationalist approach.

... doesn't erase his past actions.
Although regarding Sterling, changing your position and reflecting on that is notable.

j_u_d_a_s

Quote from: Zetetic on August 08, 2018, 06:14:17 PM
Although regarding Sterling, changing your position and reflecting on that is notable.


?? I was referring to TB. To his credit, Sterling never supported GG.

Funcrusher

All fair questions from Lemming.

Quote from: Lemming on August 08, 2018, 05:28:35 PM
Haven't read the thread so sorry if it's been said already, but Funcrusher, what's the meaning of Gamergate to you? Because you say it's a movement opposed to identity politics, but in the early days, almost every respectable person involved claimed it was about ethics in games journalism and a movement against the clique of shit journalists accepting bribes from developers and major publishers.

As far as I can see it starts off with Gjoni's post, which suggests that gaming journalism is home to a cozy clique of writers and developers scratching each others backs. At that point it's about ethics or lack thereof. Then after this blows up the clique double down with the 'gamers are over' stuff and at that point it becomes a culture war about identity politics because one thing that unites the clique is their faux left check-you-privilege call out culture whatever. And the 'gamers are over' thing is about characterising gamers as misogynist, racist nerdbros - which is what people of that ilk generally do when they're in an argument - see also Berniebros. So the clique of shit journalists using  identity politics intertwines 'ethics in journalism' with identity politics. From there you have DARVOing unreliable narrator Zoe Quinn and her narcissistic comrades on one side and and a largely disorganised rabble of gamers and sundry internet denizens on the other and it all just became a bit of a shouting match, not helped by the anti-GGs fellow travellers in other media printing any old nonsense.

Quote from: Lemming on August 08, 2018, 05:28:35 PM

If it's a movement against identity politics, what's that got to do with video games at all? What would you say were the core goals of Gamergate, and did it achieve them?


In theory identity politics wouldn't have much to do with video games, but with the anti-GG side characterising gaming as a cesspool of misogyny, racism etc who were hating on them because of their fearless commitment to social justice, rather than because they were a clique of shit journalists it ended up being about that. The core goal of Gamergate seemed to be to depose the clique of shit journalists. I don't think they realised the extent of what they were taking on - I don't know whether they would say that gaming journalism has changed for the better.

Quote from: Lemming on August 08, 2018, 05:28:35 PM

Also, do you have a problem with Anita Sarkeesian and/or Zoe Quinn? If so, what is it?

I don't directly have a problem with either of them because I'm not a gamer, but their brand of silly identity politicking has reared its head in various places and I think it's stupid, dishonest and makes serious left/progressive politics look like shit and alienates potential allies and drives things like the alt-right and Trump. I think Anita has a very simplistic sixth-formerish take on things at best and I think she's somewhat ambitious and calculating. Zoe Quinn seems a bit narcissistic, not very trustworthy, DARVO. I've said before that i have no great issue with her boyfriend writing a ranty blopost about her cheating on him. People who've been cheated on do this all the time -it's probably ill advised and not very mature, but people who've been cheated on tend to be in a bit of an emotional state. I see no reason why it's creepy when a man does it, women do it just as often.

j_u_d_a_s

Quote from: Funcrusher on August 08, 2018, 06:36:44 PM
As far as I can see it starts off with Gjoni's post, which suggests that gaming journalism is home to a cozy clique of writers and developers scratching each others backs. At that point it's about ethics or lack thereof. Then after this blows up the clique double down with the 'gamers are over' stuff and at that point it becomes a culture war about identity politics because one thing that unites the clique is their faux left check-you-privilege call out culture whatever. And the 'gamers are over' thing is about characterising gamers as misogynist, racist nerdbros - which is what people of that ilk generally do when they're in an argument - see also Berniebros. So the clique of shit journalists using  identity politics intertwines 'ethics in journalism' with identity politics. From there you have DARVOing unreliable narrator Zoe Quinn and her narcissistic comrades on one side and and a largely disorganised rabble of gamers and sundry internet denizens on the other and it all just became a bit of a shouting match, not helped by the anti-GGs fellow travellers in other media printing any old nonsense.

Having worked in the games industry and as a freelance journalist, it's less a cozy clique of writers and developers than it is a small niche world where people can't help but know each other because they work in the same field. I know many journos and dev teams. Painting it as a cozy clique was Gjoni's way of getting back at Zoe, yes he was cheated but to write a 10000 word screed about a perceived conspiracy theory isn't a healthy way to get over it.

Quote
In theory identity politics wouldn't have much to do with video games, but with the anti-GG side characterising gaming as a cesspool of misogyny, racism etc who were hating on them because of their fearless commitment to social justice, rather than because they were a clique of shit journalists it ended up being about that. The core goal of Gamergate seemed to be to depose the clique of shit journalists. I don't think they realised the extent of what they were taking on - I don't know whether they would say that gaming journalism has changed for the better.

Welp, it failed in that core goal because those same journalists are still around working in the same field. And it's not a big stretch to characterise gamergate as a cesspool because it was created inside a cesspool as a response to a guy slutshaming his ex.

Quote
I don't directly have a problem with either of them because I'm not a gamer, but their brand of silly identity politicking has reared its head in various places and I think it's stupid, dishonest and makes serious left/progressive politics look like shit and alienates potential allies and drives things like the alt-right and Trump.

Keep seeing this theory pop up and... it's bollocks mate. Attributing the rise of the far right and trump etc to "SJWs" when there's been well documented astroturfing campaigns to manipulate the image of white supremacy and launder it under the guise of "free speech" is sincerely naive or ill informed or wilfully ignorant. Which is it to be?

Quote
I think Anita has a very simplistic sixth-formerish take on things at best and I think she's somewhat ambitious and calculating. Zoe Quinn seems a bit narcissistic, not very trustworthy, DARVO. I've said before that i have no great issue with her boyfriend writing a ranty blopost about her cheating on him. People who've been cheated on do this all the time -it's probably ill advised and not very mature, but people who've been cheated on tend to be in a bit of an emotional state. I see no reason why it's creepy when a man does it, women do it just as often.

Gonna blow your mind here by agreeing that Sarkeesian's form of critique is reductive and cherry picked. But painting her as some ambitious and calculating is more than a bit suspect, especially when Milo, Cernovich and your beloved CHS all leapt on gamergate at the start as a way to further their own agendas. And you seem to be ok with Zoe Quinn's private life being splayed all over the internet by a vengeful acts and justify it by labelling someone you don't know as narcissistic. It's an irony that she got so famous because gamers hated her game depression quest.

Have to say, you leaping onto gamergate because you can't stand dem SJWs while not having the first clue about games or gaming culture is way too precious.

Hecate

Why do you keep starting your sentences with welp? What is welp?

Fucking welp. Cancelled to fuck, just for that. I'll take the Nazis any day over that shit.

manticore

QuoteWelp, an alternative pronunciation of well, is an interjection typically used at the beginning of a sentence to express resignation or disappointment.

Don't like the sound of it.

Funcrusher

Quote from: j_u_d_a_s on August 08, 2018, 07:00:22 PM
Having worked in the games industry and as a freelance journalist, it's less a cozy clique of writers and developers than it is a small niche world where people can't help but know each other because they work in the same field. I know many journos and dev teams. Painting it as a cozy clique was Gjoni's way of getting back at Zoe, yes he was cheated but to write a 10000 word screed about a perceived conspiracy theory isn't a healthy way to get over it.


You would say that, you cozy clique cunt

Quote from: j_u_d_a_s on August 08, 2018, 07:00:22 PM

Welp, it failed in that core goal because those same journalists are still around working in the same field. And it's not a big stretch to characterise gamergate as a cesspool because it was created inside a cesspool as a response to a guy slutshaming his ex.


Is it slutshaming to complain about your ex cheating on you? Is it slutshaming if the genders are the other way around?

Quote from: j_u_d_a_s on August 08, 2018, 07:00:22 PM

Keep seeing this theory pop up and... it's bollocks mate. Attributing the rise of the far right and trump etc to "SJWs" when there's been well documented astroturfing campaigns to manipulate the image of white supremacy and launder it under the guise of "free speech" is sincerely naive or ill informed or wilfully ignorant. Which is it to be?


But the 'free speech' canard was handed to them by the antics of SJWs, and silly, preachy rich kids telling other people to check their privilege just helps to stoke the perception of coastal elites, metropolitan champagne socialists etc that the right loves. The likes of Corbyn and Sanders connect with people partly because they don't traffic in this identitarian tosh.

Quote from: j_u_d_a_s on August 08, 2018, 07:00:22 PM

Gonna blow your mind here by agreeing that Sarkeesian's form of critique is reductive and cherry picked. But painting her as some ambitious and calculating is more than a bit suspect, especially when Milo, Cernovich and your beloved CHS all leapt on gamergate at the start as a way to further their own agendas.

At least we agree on something. So you're saying she's no more of a self-publicising cynical opportunist that Milo or Cernovich....

Quote from: j_u_d_a_s on August 08, 2018, 07:00:22 PM

Have to say, you leaping onto gamergate because you can't stand dem SJWs while not having the first clue about games or gaming culture is way too precious.

Yeah, you did this bit already, sticks and stones.

Funcrusher


Lemming

Quote from: Funcrusher on August 08, 2018, 06:36:44 PM
All fair questions from Lemming.

As far as I can see it starts off with Gjoni's post, which suggests that gaming journalism is home to a cozy clique of writers and developers scratching each others backs. At that point it's about ethics or lack thereof. Then after this blows up the clique double down with the 'gamers are over' stuff and at that point it becomes a culture war about identity politics because one thing that unites the clique is their faux left check-you-privilege call out culture whatever. And the 'gamers are over' thing is about characterising gamers as misogynist, racist nerdbros - which is what people of that ilk generally do when they're in an argument - see also Berniebros. So the clique of shit journalists using  identity politics intertwines 'ethics in journalism' with identity politics. From there you have DARVOing unreliable narrator Zoe Quinn and her narcissistic comrades on one side and and a largely disorganised rabble of gamers and sundry internet denizens on the other and it all just became a bit of a shouting match, not helped by the anti-GGs fellow travellers in other media printing any old nonsense.

In theory identity politics wouldn't have much to do with video games, but with the anti-GG side characterising gaming as a cesspool of misogyny, racism etc who were hating on them because of their fearless commitment to social justice, rather than because they were a clique of shit journalists it ended up being about that. The core goal of Gamergate seemed to be to depose the clique of shit journalists. I don't think they realised the extent of what they were taking on - I don't know whether they would say that gaming journalism has changed for the better.

From my own experience being involved in gaming since the early 2000s, many gaming communities have big problems with unchallenged misogyny, racism, homophobia etc. 10 minutes in virtually any competitive multiplayer game, or reading the live Twitch chat for AGDQ/SGDQ any time a woman or transgender person comes on screen should confirm that beyond a doubt. It's distressing to me that, rather than use the (admittedly awful) "gamers are over" thing as an opportunity to try and tackle those issues and make gaming more welcoming to people who might currently feel excluded, as well as address the elitism and "clique" feel that in my opinion ruins so many gaming forums, many people identifying themselves as part of the gamergate movement instead chose to double down and defend or overlook the behaviour that the journalists were talking about. Nobody likes being talked down to by shithead journalists, of course, but it seems to me like an opportunity was missed to take their criticisms and show that we could address them as a community.

Do you think it's fair to say that gamergate, moreso as time went on, was hijacked by genuine right-wing ideologues (Sargon of Akkad, for example), and many gamers - especially younger ones - were caught up in that, and adopted harmful political and social views as a result? I think it's clear to see that people like Sargon and others used the "gamer" identity, which many people felt strongly tied to in the wake of gamergate, to exploit people and draw them into rightist politics - support for Trump, often aimless rage against anything deemed "feminist" or "progressive", and so on. Funnily enough, it echoes what seemed to happen with the new Atheist movement - what starts as a genuinely good thing is eventually taken over by bizarre far-right ideology that has nothing to do with the original goal, and the movement is ruined. And big publishers are still bribing games journalists, because the movement that could have exposed and stopped that is, at this point, too busy complaining that r/fatpeoplehate got banned and defending Donald Trump from criticism.

QuoteI don't directly have a problem with either of them because I'm not a gamer, but their brand of silly identity politicking has reared its head in various places and I think it's stupid, dishonest and makes serious left/progressive politics look like shit and alienates potential allies and drives things like the alt-right and Trump. I think Anita has a very simplistic sixth-formerish take on things at best and I think she's somewhat ambitious and calculating. Zoe Quinn seems a bit narcissistic, not very trustworthy, DARVO. I've said before that i have no great issue with her boyfriend writing a ranty blopost about her cheating on him. People who've been cheated on do this all the time -it's probably ill advised and not very mature, but people who've been cheated on tend to be in a bit of an emotional state. I see no reason why it's creepy when a man does it, women do it just as often.

I agree about Anita Sarkeesian, she represents probably the most boring brand of liberal feminism I've ever seen, and all the good points she makes in her videos are things that, as you say, a sixth-former who's just realised inequality exists could have come up with.

The reason I brought them up is precisely because they're both so boring and unremarkable - Anita is someone who just points at obvious examples of sexism in videogames, calls it sexism, smirks at the camera, and that's her entire thing. Zoe is an absolute nobody with a text adventure game who cheated on her boyfriend, which is a terrible thing to do, but thousands of people around the world will have done the same thing to their partners today. I think it's interesting that we're still talking about either of them in 2018, and I think the reason for that is because of the ridiculously over-the-top reaction they both got from people in gamergate. When I try to think about why people got so enraged - many enough to send death threats - at these two completely unremarkable people, neither of who is actually a mainstream games journalist, I have trouble coming up with many explanations other than some form of misogyny, combined with the mad unjustified panic that "feminists are coming to ruin our video games" by... making text adventures about depression that nobody plays.

Funcrusher

Quote from: Lemming on August 08, 2018, 08:45:39 PM
From my own experience being involved in gaming since the early 2000s, many gaming communities have big problems with unchallenged misogyny, racism, homophobia etc. 10 minutes in virtually any competitive multiplayer game, or reading the live Twitch chat for AGDQ/SGDQ any time a woman or transgender person comes on screen should confirm that beyond a doubt. It's distressing to me that, rather than use the (admittedly awful) "gamers are over" thing as an opportunity to try and tackle those issues and make gaming more welcoming to people who might currently feel excluded, as well as address the elitism and "clique" feel that in my opinion ruins so many gaming forums, many people identifying themselves as part of the gamergate movement instead chose to double down and defend or overlook the behaviour that the journalists were talking about. Nobody likes being talked down to by shithead journalists, of course, but it seems to me like an opportunity was missed to take their criticisms and show that we could address them as a community.


'Gamers are over' doesn't really offer a great opportunity for change, as it was just the clique decreeing that rank and file gamers could just fuck off - so did anti-Gamergate win, I wonder? Are gamers over? And if there are actual issues that could be addressed, that cause isn't helped by the likes of Anita finding toxic masculinity everywhere.

Quote from: Lemming on August 08, 2018, 08:45:39 PM

Do you think it's fair to say that gamergate, moreso as time went on, was hijacked by genuine right-wing ideologues (Sargon of Akkad, for example), and many gamers - especially younger ones - were caught up in that, and adopted harmful political and social views as a result? I think it's clear to see that people like Sargon and others used the "gamer" identity, which many people felt strongly tied to in the wake of gamergate, to exploit people and draw them into rightist politics - support for Trump, often aimless rage against anything deemed "feminist" or "progressive", and so on. Funnily enough, it echoes what seemed to happen with the new Atheist movement - what starts as a genuinely good thing is eventually taken over by bizarre far-right ideology that has nothing to do with the original goal, and the movement is ruined. And big publishers are still bribing games journalists, because the movement that could have exposed and stopped that is, at this point, too busy complaining that r/fatpeoplehate got banned and defending Donald Trump from criticism.


I would argue, as I did at the time, that with the immediate doubling down, the constant misogynerd narrative, the one-sided reporting by the liberal media basically handed Gamergate to the likes of Milo. Stupid, preachy SJWism is turning people off the left, which alarms me no end. I've never known a time when the right were cool to people under 30 to any extent. I don't really see Sargon as much of an ideologue - he's a bit of a windbag who's high on the size of his Patreon and full of his own 'commonsensical objectivity' and has become defined as the mirror image of Sarkeesian et al. He's no Steve Bannon.

Quote from: Lemming on August 08, 2018, 08:45:39 PM

I agree about Anita Sarkeesian, she represents probably the most boring brand of liberal feminism I've ever seen, and all the good points she makes in her videos are things that, as you say, a sixth-former who's just realised inequality exists could have come up with.

The reason I brought them up is precisely because they're both so boring and unremarkable - Anita is someone who just points at obvious examples of sexism in videogames, calls it sexism, smirks at the camera, and that's her entire thing. Zoe is an absolute nobody with a text adventure game who cheated on her boyfriend, which is a terrible thing to do, but thousands of people around the world will have done the same thing to their partners today. I think it's interesting that we're still talking about either of them in 2018, and I think the reason for that is because of the ridiculously over-the-top reaction they both got from people in gamergate. When I try to think about why people got so enraged - many enough to send death threats - at these two completely unremarkable people, neither of who is actually a mainstream games journalist, I have trouble coming up with many explanations other than some form of misogyny, combined with the mad unjustified panic that "feminists are coming to ruin our video games" by... making text adventures about depression that nobody plays.

Everyone wants to say I'm some bad hat for hating on Anita, and yet no one has much good to say about her. Like you say, she's a liberal feminist - her analysis is all about identity, with zero structural critique of the fundamentals of class and money.

You don't have a high opinion of either Anita or Zoe - so why must the low opinions of Gamergaters be misogyny and 'fear of feminists '?

BritishHobo

A question that's just occurred to me is, in a medoum dominated by massive global corporations making billions off of their consoles and big-budget franchises, Mario and Call of Duty dominating, games that cost fifty quid on consoles that cost three hundred, why was it such a staggering deal that one individual woman's free-to-play web-based text-based interactive fiction game about depression got mentioned a couple of times by one games journalist who her ex-boyfriend claims she LATER slept with? It's nothing.

BritishHobo

Fucking helk I'm delving back into this now and despairing all over again at how NOTHING it all was. Nathan Grayson mentioned Quinn in three articles. He interviewed her, amongst others, for an article on Steam Greenlight. He wrote an article about a controversial Game Jam, and he mentioned her, because she took part in it. And then finally he posted a list of fifty new games coming to Steam Greenlight, and wrote this sentence:

QuoteAnyway, standouts: powerful Twine darling Depression Quest, surrealist Thief usurper Tangiers, and sidescrolling epic Treasure Adventure World.

That's the scandal. That's the scandal that showed Zoe Quinn for the villain she is, and exposed the nepotistic SJW orgy that is games journalism.

FUCK GAMERGATE. What a load of FUCKING shit.

Funcrusher

And on the basis of that gamers were declared to be OVER

falafel

Quote from: Funcrusher on August 08, 2018, 10:08:17 PM
'why must the low opinions of Gamergaters be misogyny and 'fear of feminists '?

Because rather than a gentle lapping wave of indifference or criticism it was a tsunami of  disproprtionate outrage and unpleasant personal attacks?

Yeah, that.

Zetetic