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It turns out everyone is horrible (tw: possible GamerGate thread)

Started by Barry Admin, August 06, 2018, 11:30:15 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Zetetic

Ok. I'm not sure what this has to do with the 'opposing side' boycotting anyone.

I'm asking about those who claimed the mantle of 'consumer rights' advocates worried about 'ethics in gaming journalism'. Did they boycott, concertedly, the gaming press and the companies they felt were at fault? What other consumer rights tactics did they use?

Funcrusher

Quote from: Zetetic on August 06, 2018, 07:20:13 PM
Ok. I'm not sure what this has to do with the 'opposing side' boycotting anyone.

I'm asking about those who claimed the mantle of 'consumer rights' advocates worried about 'ethics in gaming journalism'. Did they boycott, concertedly, the gaming press and the companies they felt were at fault? What other consumer rights tactics did they use?

A conversation about consumer rights and boycotts is one for someone else I guess. I'm more interested in Barry's point about gamers as folk devils.

bgmnts

I play video games regularly but I am not mysoginistic or anything.

Am I a gamer or a man who enjoys video games? What if I want to identify as a gamer?

Funcrusher

Quote from: bgmnts on August 06, 2018, 08:13:04 PM
I play video games regularly but I am not mysoginistic or anything.


Sorry, this isn't possible.

Zetetic

Quote from: Funcrusher on August 06, 2018, 07:26:56 PM
A conversation about consumer rights and boycotts is one for someone else I guess. I'm more interested in Barry's point about gamers as folk devils.
I don't think they're unrelated, insofar as they're both about the perceived and actual behaviour of 'gamers' (self-identified or labelled by others).

Taking the 'Gamergaters' as interested in consumer rights and so on, we can compare the activity of that group with other such groups. Boycotts are interesting because they rely on truly mass action, and fail (to surface or to be effective) if you can't muster that.

I think there's also something in that about the relationship of 'gamers' with the people that produce stuff for them - I wonder whether that's mirrored in comedy or other sets of consumers and fans. People don't to tend watch comedy performed and written by people they profess to despise (Derek threads on CaB aside). (Perhaps it's a bit more common for comedians to despise their fans...)

Pdine

I reckon when people try to make sense of the current era in the future they will need to find a good way to talk about the internet communities that posted mainly on auto-deleting message boards and originated Anon, Gamergate and elements of the Alt Right. In a way it's a bit like the pamphleteering mania that happened in the C17th in that it's para-literature/para-history. 

Funcrusher

Quote from: Pdine on August 06, 2018, 08:25:20 PM
I reckon when people try to make sense of the current era in the future they will need to find a good way to talk about the internet communities that posted mainly on auto-deleting message boards and originated Anon, Gamergate and elements of the Alt Right.

They would also need to understand the growth of SJWism and identity politics via academia, Tumblr and widening inequality.

Mister Six

Quote from: Barry Admin on August 06, 2018, 01:33:51 PM
That's what interests me, to perhaps explain the thread a little better.  Is it fair that "gamers" are routinely maligned, when all subsets of fandom contain mouthy obnoxious cunts?

The shitfest that was Gamergate came about because the mouth-breathers were trying to (no pun intended) gatekeep the term "gamer". They identify with the term so much - it's so foundational to their sense of being - that if the definition "gamer" were to change substantially, then they would lose their own sense of self.

That is, "gamer" to them means a male, straight, game fan who plays certain approved types of games (Bloodborne and that kind of thing - "proper", "hardcore" games), so if women, or players of Candy Crush or whatever, get to call themselves "gamers" then their primary identifying trait is eroded.

And as they flocked to this identity because they felt excluded from other identities - jock, sportsman, cool kid, playboy - that threatens to rob them of the only thing they have.

That's why it was so important to attack Sarkesian and the lass that made Depression Quest - not because the Sanctity of Videogame Journalism must be protected from half-assed YouTube videos and zero-budget indie games, but because if "gamer" was allowed to include SJWs and people who question the necessity of yet another game about big, burly brick shithouses and enormo-titted whoresluts then they would no longer have any way of boosting their own egos.

So to some extent it is fair - because the obnoxious cunts are deliberately excluding anyone who might not be an obnoxious misogynistic cunt from their ranks.

This shit, incidentally, is why I don't have any truck with identity politics. As someone up there said, if something you do or something you are becomes your primary identifying characteristic then you're probably hideously boring at best.

Barry Admin

Probably a good time to link one of the "Gamers are Dead" articles referenced earlier: https://archive.fo/l1kTW

Funcrusher

Quote from: Mister Six on August 06, 2018, 08:52:12 PM
The shitfest that was Gamergate came about because the mouth-breathers were trying to (no pun intended) gatekeep the term "gamer". They identify with the term so much - it's so foundational to their sense of being - that if the definition "gamer" were to change substantially, then they would lose their own sense of self.

That is, "gamer" to them means a male, straight, game fan who plays certain approved types of games (Bloodborne and that kind of thing - "proper", "hardcore" games), so if women, or players of Candy Crush or whatever, get to call themselves "gamers" then their primary identifying trait is eroded.

And as they flocked to this identity because they felt excluded from other identities - jock, sportsman, cool kid, playboy - that threatens to rob them of the only thing they have.

That's why it was so important to attack Sarkesian and the lass that made Depression Quest - not because the Sanctity of Videogame Journalism must be protected from half-assed YouTube videos and zero-budget indie games, but because if "gamer" was allowed to include SJWs and people who question the necessity of yet another game about big, burly brick shithouses and enormo-titted whoresluts then they would no longer have any way of boosting their own egos.

So to some extent it is fair - because the obnoxious cunts are deliberately excluding anyone who might not be an obnoxious misogynistic cunt from their ranks.


Hyperbole much? This is just the mirror image of Jordan Peterson ranting about cultural Marxism. I think that Barry's version that it's about some people getting tired of joyless fun-sucking faux left puritanism is a bit more reasonable than this deranged rant about nerd bogeymen.

Twed

I liken the entire thing to Trump supporters versus Centrists. They're all genuine idiots inflicting themselves on the world, and it's soul-crushing for the rest of us to have to grudgingly support the ones who at least aren't misogynist overt racists. The best you can hope for is to not get too much of the dogfood of it all in your own mouth.

Eis Nein

Quote from: Barry Admin on August 06, 2018, 03:18:43 PM
It was partly about ethics in games journalism, yes.

Ahaha. Don't forget free speech. Molyneux. Peterson. Yaxley-Lennon. Their light must shine for us all.

Thread almost entirely as expected, but the John Bain eulogies are an added bonus. Good night, sweet prince.

Pdine

Quote from: Funcrusher on August 06, 2018, 08:49:19 PM
They would also need to understand the growth of SJWism and identity politics via academia, Tumblr and widening inequality.

There's a lot there to comment on, and I'm not sure you are actually inviting that. Suffice it to say that you're eliding and obfuscating an awful lot there.

Funcrusher

Quote from: Pdine on August 06, 2018, 10:05:01 PM
There's a lot there to comment on, and I'm not sure you are actually inviting that. Suffice it to say that you're eliding and obfuscating an awful lot there.

How on earth am I doing that? I was just adding the flavour of ideological dogma fuelling the other side of the argument that you had inadvertently left out.

BritishHobo

I think Jim Sterling summed up GamerGate by saying he was reading the word 'whore' far more than he read the word 'journalist'. Zoe Quinn was the hate figure and the journalists rarely referenced.

Anita Sarkeesian is the real ground zero though, I think. There'd be no GamerGate without that. A woman doing basic critical analysis treated by gamers like she was the ultimate villain - to the extent that those dopey skull-twats who made the anti-Sarkeesian documentary interviewed Jack Thompson of all people, about how Sarkeesian's moral righteousness was harmful to gaming. Like interviewing Mary Whitehouse about how offended and censorious SJWs are.

It's not even just a sexism and racism problem either, although that's obviously a key aspect. Gaming culture is rife with a juvenile inability to act with any kind of civility or critical thinking. It's a culture that desperately wants to be taken seriously while simultaneously soaking in the depths of toxic abuse any time anyone diverges. One bloke at a news outlet plays a shit game of Cuphead, not even reviewing it or blaming the game, and you have weeks of genuinely hateful outrage about how all games journalists are shit poser cunts.

I cannot understand how anyone can spend any substantial length of time on a gaming forum and not come away reeling from the juvenile spite and cruelty.

Funcrusher

Quote from: BritishHobo on August 06, 2018, 10:13:19 PM
A woman doing basic critical analysis

Mate

Quote from: BritishHobo on August 06, 2018, 10:13:19 PM

It's not even just a sexism and racism problem either, although that's obviously a key aspect. Gaming culture is rife with a juvenile inability to act with any kind of civility or critical thinking. It's a culture that desperately wants to be taken seriously while simultaneously soaking in the depths of toxic abuse any time anyone diverges.

Yeah, I mean the anti-Gamergate side is always so civil and mature and open to diverging views.

Quote from: Eis Nein on August 06, 2018, 03:05:14 PM
The knicker sniffer looks up from the drawer. I'll start a thread, he muses.


Twed

Quote from: BritishHobo on August 06, 2018, 10:13:19 PM
I think Jim Sterling summed up GamerGate by saying he was reading the word 'whore' far more than he read the word 'journalist'. Zoe Quinn was the hate figure and the journalists rarely referenced.

Anita Sarkeesian is the real ground zero though, I think. There'd be no GamerGate without that. A woman doing basic critical analysis treated by gamers like she was the ultimate villain - to the extent that those dopey skull-twats who made the anti-Sarkeesian documentary interviewed Jack Thompson of all people, about how Sarkeesian's moral righteousness was harmful to gaming. Like interviewing Mary Whitehouse about how offended and censorious SJWs are.

It's not even just a sexism and racism problem either, although that's obviously a key aspect. Gaming culture is rife with a juvenile inability to act with any kind of civility or critical thinking. It's a culture that desperately wants to be taken seriously while simultaneously soaking in the depths of toxic abuse any time anyone diverges. One bloke at a news outlet plays a shit game of Cuphead, not even reviewing it or blaming the game, and you have weeks of genuinely hateful outrage about how all games journalists are shit poser cunts.

I cannot understand how anyone can spend any substantial length of time on a gaming forum and not come away reeling from the juvenile spite and cruelty.
They also made it so that any reasonable criticism of Sarkeesian would be impossible, because it would be interpreted as a statement of allegiance to misogynists. Bit of an own goal. It all feeds off itself. Every reaction to any figure involved becomes an act of culture war.

Barry Admin

As I'm playing Mass Effect Andromeda at the minute, it spurred memories of "FemShep" - wasn't the female Shepard widely celebrated by gamers at the time? And didn't they actively lobby for more inclusive sexual orientations to be catered for in other Bioware games like Dragon Age?

I'm not sure how we moved from that, to the idea that gamers all hate women. Although I do realise that it's become increasingly fashionable in recent years to sneer at "straight white males", and that seems wrapped up in all this. 

Pdine

Quote from: Funcrusher on August 06, 2018, 10:26:29 PM
Mate

Thing is, she was just doing standard cultural criticism. The problem was, I reckon, that most gamers hadn't taken much interest in cultural criticism up to that point, and some saw it as an affront.

BritishHobo

Quote from: Funcrusher on August 06, 2018, 10:26:29 PMYeah, I mean the anti-Gamergate side is always so civil and mature and open to diverging views.

What bearing does this have on my assessment of gamers? Does the possible nastiness of a group's reaction to gamers refute my points about gamers themselves?

Pdine

Quote from: Barry Admin on August 06, 2018, 10:32:11 PM
As I'm playing Mass Effect Andromeda at the minute, it spurred memories of "FemShep" - wasn't the female Shepard widely celebrated by gamers at the time? And didn't they actively lobby for more inclusive sexual orientations to be caters for in other Bioware games like Dragon Age?

I'm not sure how we moved from that, to the idea that gamers all hate women. Although I do realise that it's become increasingly fashionable in recent years to sneer at "straight white males", and that seems wrapped up in all this.

Mass Effect Andromeda is just a badly written, badly resourced game, though. Its faults are not political but creative.

Penfold

Did Anita Sarkeesian's kickstarter backers get their moneys worth?

I remember that being a thing by people who didn't back it but were really into consumer rights on that one kickstarter.

Twed

I know I'm essentially asserting things to cheer myself up here, but it's quite good to review the figures involved in a 2014-era high-profile flame war and be absolutely certain that every figure involved is either racist, misogynistic, classist or transphobic. You can categorize them all as people destined for the bin. Just tick 'em all off. Shitters for the bin, inconsequential bin people whose bin exploits became irrelevant as soon as the general bin-waft of it all has dispersed.

Barry Admin

Quote from: Pdine on August 06, 2018, 10:33:24 PM
Mass Effect Andromeda is just a badly written, badly resourced game, though. Its faults are not political but creative.

I've only started it, so haven't made any comment on it, I was referring to the original trilogy, and how I recall the inclusion of a female protagonist being widely accepted as a Good Thing.

Funcrusher

Quote from: BritishHobo on August 06, 2018, 10:32:35 PM
What bearing does this have on my assessment of gamers, which the anti-GamerGate side was a reaction to?

Or alternatively Gamergate was a reaction to "fedora tipping m'ladys" (TM Barry). But of course it's all about the endless demonising of gamers, there's no fault to be found on the other side (like using the cover of being a champion of social justice to be an unpleasant bullying cunt, as in the example cited).

Funcrusher

Quote from: Barry Admin on August 06, 2018, 10:37:00 PM
I've only started it, so haven't made any comment on it, I was referring to the original trilogy, and how I recall the inclusion of a female protagonist being widely accepted as a Good Thing.

Do gamers have a pathological hatred for Tomb Raider?

Barry Admin

Edit: no, she's one of the most beloved game characters of all time. She's also had nude cheats and teenage boys whacking one off to her as she climbs ladders or whatever.

Quote from: Pdine on August 06, 2018, 10:32:20 PM
Thing is, she was just doing standard cultural criticism. The problem was, I reckon, that most gamers hadn't taken much interest in cultural criticism up to that point, and some saw it as an affront.

The accusation of "gatekeeping" definitely seems apt there. People were clearly terrified that someone who didn't know anything about games - and who had professed not to enjoy them - would end up having an influence on their direction.

BritishHobo

Quote from: Funcrusher on August 06, 2018, 10:37:28 PM
Or alternatively Gamergate was a reaction to "fedora tipping m'ladys" (TM Barry). But of course it's all about the endless demonising of gamers, there's no fault to be found on the other side (like using the cover of being a champion of social justice to be an unpleasant bullying cunt, as in the example cited).

Genuinely no combativeness in this question, what do you think of my assessment of gamers independent of any other side? Do you disagree totally? I am interested, I don't want this to be a you gamergate vs me anti-gamergate thing, all thirty pages with neither of us getting anything out of it.

Pdine

Quote from: Funcrusher on August 06, 2018, 10:37:28 PM
Or alternatively Gamergate was a reaction to "fedora tipping m'ladys" (TM Barry). But of course it's all about the endless demonising of gamers, there's no fault to be found on the other side (like using the cover of being a champion of social justice to be an unpleasant bullying cunt, as in the example cited).

From what I can recall, 'Gamergate' was essentially a reaction of the 'core' gamer community to:

(a) feminist cultural criticism being (finally) brought to bear on one of the few areas of popular culture it had yet to reach
(b) the boom in indie gaming brought about by publishing platforms like XBox Live Arcade and Steam, and dev platforms like Unity resulting in games about experiences other than those of putative space marines

Funcrusher

Quote from: BritishHobo on August 06, 2018, 10:45:56 PM
Genuinely no combativeness in this question, what do you think of my assessment of gamers independent of any other side? Do you disagree totally? I am interested, I don't want this to be a you gamergate vs me anti-gamergate thing, all thirty pages with neither of us getting anything out of it.

Your assessment seems to be that gaming is a cesspool of misogyny and racism and that gamers are a single hivemind of fear and hatred. I find it hard to believe that this isn't somewhat exaggerated.