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It turns out everyone is horrible (tw: possible GamerGate thread)

Started by Barry Admin, August 06, 2018, 11:30:15 AM

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Zetetic

I'll try to make it simpler:

If you decide that
1) your game should depict discrimination on the basis of skin colour, or gender or the like, and
2) that players can choose the colour of their character's skin, or their character's gender and so on
then you should make that choice have at least some impact in the world you expect given the discrimination you've chosen to depict.

Skyrim doesn't do that. Characters who hate people with pointy ears don't give any indication of caring if the player character has pointy ears.

This doesn't involve writing multiple 'different games' with 'different gameplay'. It might involve some people saying different things to different player characters, and it might involve some choices (and some parts of the game) being available to some players but not others.

If you don't do this, then - at best - you undermine your depiction of the discrimination.

BeardFaceMan

So to clear, youre not relating this to the real world in anyway, you just think if elves and orcs dont like each other in a game then if you choose to be an orc then elves should talk to you differently and give you different game paths than if you chose to be an orc? And youve narrowed it down to Skyrim specifically for some reason rather than rpgs in general? And this ties in with diversity and Gamergate somehow? Nope, sorry, I'm having a brainfart, still confused.

Ferris

Quote from: Zetetic on August 11, 2018, 06:01:20 PM
Skyrim doesn't do that. Characters who hate people with pointy ears don't give any indication of caring if the player character has pointy ears.

It absolutely does do that, though. Play through as a Dunmer or Khajiit and you get shit from all the guards.

Zetetic

I'm assuming - perhaps generously - that the concepts of the 'political' plot of Skyrim are meant to sufficiently recognisable to us as to be 'related to the real world' in some way.

I picked on Skyrim because FerriswheelBueller highlighted its free choice of "ethnicity and gender"*. I think that this is somewhat undermined by making that choice meaningless in a world where we're told that these things do have meaning.  It's nice to have cosmetic diversity, sure - but there's something a bit strange and a little disappointing about depicting discrimination in a manner that's so bloodless in the player's experience of it.

(Tying this back to GamerGate, for what that's worth, needs more work - will try to follow up.)

* 'Ethnicity' is an interesting euphemising choice there, because it's not ethnicity, it's very definitely 'race'.

Zetetic

Quote from: FerriswheelBueller on August 11, 2018, 06:32:51 PM
It absolutely does do that, though. Play through as a Dunmer or Khajiit and you get shit from all the guards.
Oh, barks, sure. Little else. No impact on joining the Stormcloaks for example.

Zetetic

No dialogue difference from Ulfric Stormclock either.

(I note, again, that this isn't limited to the irrelevance of race. As I say, Bethesda increasingly seems to have a general policy that players choices should generally not exclude them from content without extreme predictability - which has positives, but arguably makes choices shallower and less meaningfully.)

Ferris

It gives you a free choice of your character & you can marry who you like. Both fairly progressive "culture-war" type things (especially in 2011 - you could get a same-sex marriage in Riften before that was possible in Arkansas). My point was nobody cared, because Bethesda didn't present them to people in a "holier-than-thou" way.

My conclusion was "people who play video games (or take part in any form of mass-media) are probably about as liberal as society as a whole, and probably a bit more so due to age/personality type. What people object to are the way messages are presented as if they are handed down from on high."

Interactions change based on the character you play as, but it doesn't majorly alter the game (aside from the plot decisions you make, of course). The game couldn't really accommodate huge changes based on every character decision you make that because it would be infinite content, and I don't think that's feasible. It's not a weakness of the game, certainly.

Re: GG. I disagreed with the characterization of people who play video games as braying reactionary morons. There are definitely people who fit that stereotype, but I wanted to draw an example from a popular game with a progressive feature that was considered so passé that it didn't draw any comment from the "gaming community" at large.

"Ah!" you may say, "Ferris! That's all well and good, but what about those self-appointed 'gamers' who act as figureheads for the GG movement?" To which I'd reply they are an assortment of unpleasant, unelected dickheads, juveniles, and bandwagon chasers and not worthy of my time (or yours), who represent a loud but tiny minority of people. I could go into more depth (mis-characterization of obsessive hobby types like myself is, ironically, something of a hobby horse) but it's saturday and I'm supposed to make dinner for friends so I'm logging off.

All the best!

Ferris

Quote from: Zetetic on August 11, 2018, 06:44:21 PM
Oh, barks, sure. Little else. No impact on joining the Stormcloaks for example.

Imagine if a game went "nope, you can't join the Stormcloaks because of the character you selected". Imagine it. People would rightly be pissed off, and pick another character, and allegations of race-selection would be all over the place. That isn't a commercially viable decision.

Ok, now I'm logging off. Sunshine outside!

Zetetic

Quote from: FerriswheelBueller on August 11, 2018, 06:54:49 PM
Interactions change based on the character you play as, but it doesn't majorly alter the game (aside from the plot decisions you make, of course). The game couldn't really accommodate huge changes based on every character decision you make that because it would be infinite content, and I don't think that's feasible.
This is a strawman, of course.

Race is a major part of one-half of the plot. The Stormcloaks are led by a racist. They themselves are discriminated against in virtue of their race.

The player is then allow to choose to their race and the leader of the Stormcloaks doesn't even have a comment on this, let alone, perhaps, being less interested in dealing with you.

It's not about making every player choice produce "huge changes", it's about a choice that the game itself is supposedly interested in being completely ignored. They didn't have to make a game that leans on racism so heavily in its plot, but they did.

In the context of this thread, it makes the apparent diversity in Skyrim's choice of player character a bit... vacuous.

QuoteIt's not a weakness of the game, certainly.
Lots of people would disagree with you about that. It's a far from uncommon opinion that Skyrim (and Fallout 4) have significantly reduced the impact of player choices, and in particular the idea of choices cutting you off from future options, than previous Bethesda RPGs and other RPGs.

Zetetic

Oh, and my point about Battlespire is that - while it did like tits a lot - it also allowed you to pick any race and gender back in 1997.

I assume pretty much every Bethesda game and most RPGs would allow this, because that's considered a basic feature of these sorts of RPGs, and the tabletop RPGs that they were heavily inspired by. (What's interesting is how they've treated it differently over time. One choice - that people have complained about of course - is that gender used to impact starting stats, while it almost always doesn't now.)

Ferris

I'm trying to discuss in good-faith and add value to the conversation. I'm not "doing a straw man", and strongly disagree with your definition. My point there was the very definition of a polite, thought-out attempt at replying to one of your points - no exaggeration, just a statement of what I think is realistic.

You're intent on scoring points against me on the racial overtones present, or otherwise, in Skyrim, no less. I don't know why because that isn't what the thread is about and I'm being pretty friendly and open.

Ok, really, now I'm logging off!

Zetetic

Apologies if it came off like that - that wasn't my intention. I do think that claiming either that I'm insisting on "huge changes based on every character decision" and "infinite content" doesn't accurately represent my position.

I'm suggesting that a particular choice about something that the game claims to be interested in should have had more impact than it did.




Quote from: FerriswheelBueller on August 11, 2018, 06:56:16 PM
Imagine if a game went "nope, you can't join the Stormcloaks because of the character you selected". Imagine it. People would rightly be pissed off,
After 10 hours of "Ulfric Stormcloak is a massive racist", "Ulfric Stomcloak wouldn't like the look of you" and so on?
Quoteand pick another character
Imagine, a plot-relevant player choice having an impact on the game.

Quote, and allegations of race-selection would be all over the place.
Race-selection? What is the player trying to do at the point he or she decides to throw their lot in with racist Ulfric Stormcloak, having walked through his city - past its ghetto - and observed some racism he's in favour of?

I think one thing to remember is that I didn't force Bethesda to make an RPG with a plot concerned with racism. They chose to do that and then they chose to have that racism have little impact on the player.

QuoteThat isn't a commercially viable decision.
Some popular RPGs do, of course, only allow some interactions depending on your character's background - including your race and gender. Divinity: Original Sin, IIRC, to pick a reasonable big one. (Although I note that party RPGs can soften this quite a bit, however, since parties will often have someone capable of the interaction.)

Bethesda has certainly decided that the correct approach is to gate as little content - for whatever reason - as possible on the basis that most players will only bother with a single playthrough. It's not the only commercially viable approach, but I do understand the reasoning.


Lemming

It is pretty laughable that you can play as a High Elf, and the Stormcloaks still love you and the Thalmor still treat you with automatic suspicion. Morrowind at least tries to get around it by implying that your accent identifies you as an "outlander", which is why Dark Elves are racist towards you even if you're a Dunmer yourself.

Other than Divinity, have there been any RPGs where your race significantly affects content available to you? I remember Arcanum sort of gestured towards it but I don't remember anything much coming of it.

Zetetic

Dragon Age: Origins (2009), and possibly the later games for all I know, has racial discrimination with actual 'mechanical' outcomes for player characters, IIRC. (Certainly major characters interact with you differently if you're an elf.)

(You can, of course, choose almost any [Edit: Nah, I was thinking of a later one] one of several species and almost any gender in DA:O because it's that sort of RPG.)

Zetetic

Stupid memory: Dragon Age: Origins explicitly has multiple 'origin' stories that you can only play as particular race-class combinations.

Mister Six

Quote from: Funcrusher on August 11, 2018, 12:23:49 PM
What is this claim actually based on?

It's based on the entirety of Gamergate starting with Zoe Quinn's ex complaining that she shagged games journos while they were dating. That is, an indie maker of free text adventures supposedly getting favourable coverage (she didn't) from the men she had sex with. That's literally ground zero of Gamergate. Everything that followed came from there. Not big publishers bribing mags and sites for favourable reviews (which is actual corruption, and a real problem).

QuoteI absolutely agree, but I'm sure that if I called Zoe Quinn an idiot someone would be astride their white charger to call me a misogynist.

I don't see what your imaginary straw man has to do with me

Funcrusher

Quote from: Mister Six on August 12, 2018, 01:04:14 PM
It's based on the entirety of Gamergate starting with Zoe Quinn's ex complaining that she shagged games journos while they were dating. That is, an indie maker of free text adventures supposedly getting favourable coverage (she didn't) from the men she had sex with. That's literally ground zero of Gamergate.

Oh well, I guess no amount of Barry or anyone else listing other things Gamergate might have been about can absolve the original sin of besmirching the honour of a lady.

MojoJojo

I may be mis-remembering this, but wasn't Quinn a hated figure by misogynist arseholes before gamergate, because depression quest didn't represent *real* depression, because real depression involves no one wanting to have sex with you and as a woman she could obviously have sex whenever she wanted?

I haven't paid close attention so I don't know if she really deserves the hate she's got or was just unlucky in becoming a target.

marquis_de_sad

Quote from: MojoJojo on August 12, 2018, 07:48:17 PM
I may be mis-remembering this, but wasn't Quinn a hated figure by misogynist arseholes before gamergate, because depression quest didn't represent *real* depression, because real depression involves no one wanting to have sex with you and as a woman she could obviously have sex whenever she wanted?

I haven't paid close attention so I don't know if she really deserves the hate she's got or was just unlucky in becoming a target.

https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/814181-quinnspiracy

j_u_d_a_s

Quote from: MojoJojo on August 12, 2018, 07:48:17 PM
I may be mis-remembering this, but wasn't Quinn a hated figure by misogynist arseholes before gamergate, because depression quest didn't represent *real* depression, because real depression involves no one wanting to have sex with you and as a woman she could obviously have sex whenever she wanted?

I haven't paid close attention so I don't know if she really deserves the hate she's got or was just unlucky in becoming a target.

There was a fair bit of hate toward Depression Quest because it wasn't seen as a "real game". Various reasons were given like it being a text adventure with no lose state. There's a fair amount of crossover between gamergate supporters and those who cry out for "Objective" reviews. Obviously I don't know her at all or do I know anyone else who does, there were vague rumblings about some drama between her and some (presumably now ex) friends. Tbh all of it sounds like playground politics. Whether or not she's a good person I don't know, and yeah cheating on a partner is a bad thing. But painting her as both a) someone who had way too much power in the games industry and b) someone insignificant hungry for fame is... well it's not a consistent viewpoint.

Quote from: marquis_de_sad on August 12, 2018, 08:11:09 PM
https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/814181-quinnspiracy

"So here's how things probably happened" isn't a great start. Reads like it was written by an incel too.

j_u_d_a_s

Quote from: Funcrusher on August 12, 2018, 04:51:43 PM
Oh well, I guess no amount of Barry or anyone else listing other things Gamergate might have been about can absolve the original sin of besmirching the honour of a lady.

It may have been many things, but a force for good was never one.

bgmnts

Quote from: Lemming on August 10, 2018, 04:54:31 PM
I didn't know people actually masturbated to Dead or Alive. The entire thing is so desperate for you to wank over it that it's impossible to actually do so. You can actually hear the horny middle-aged Japanese game developer whispering "WANK. WANK. WANK." in your ear while you try to play the game. It's one step up from a pornographic doodle on the side of a notebook. It's like when a school bully comes up, shoves you, and says he fucked your mother - the entire thing is such a desperately calculated ploy to make you angry that you can't actually get angry.

And Darkstalkers, fucking hell. My testicles actually shrivelled and ascended back into my body when I saw how dreadful the character designs were. It almost made me lose the ability to be sexually aroused by anything ever again. I would genuinely be fine with all future babies being neutered at birth if it saves us from people drawing designs like that and thinking "oh yeah, this is something to show to other humans. This is something I want my name listed under "CHARACTER DESIGN" on in the credits".

Have there ever been videogames marketed with over-the-top """sexy""" male characters? Not counting bishounen shit or this picture that PC Gamer use for everything Witcher related.

To be honest, is there anything you WON'T wank to as a teenager?

marquis_de_sad

Quote from: j_u_d_a_s on August 13, 2018, 01:34:32 AM"So here's how things probably happened" isn't a great start. Reads like it was written by an incel too.

Quite.

Quote from: Funcrusher on August 12, 2018, 04:51:43 PM
Oh well, I guess no amount of Barry or anyone else listing other things Gamergate might have been about can absolve the original sin of besmirching the honour of a lady.

Multiple ladies.

Remember when they campaigned to get Alison Mack sacked from Nintendo Treehouse because they were convinced she was personally responsible for all the censorship in Fire Emblem and succeeded by slut shaming her en masse?

But, yeah, it's about ethics in games journalism.

Z

Quote from: Huxleys Babkins on August 13, 2018, 03:56:55 PM
Multiple ladies.

Remember when they campaigned to get Alison Mack sacked from Nintendo Treehouse because they were convinced she was personally responsible for all the censorship in Fire Emblem and succeeded by slut shaming her en masse?

But, yeah, it's about ethics in games journalism.
Alison Rapp, Alison Mack is the sex cult Smallville star

Twed

You're all doing great work in this thread, amazing. Please keep relitigating 2014, it's not at all regressive.

Funcrusher

Quote from: Twed on August 13, 2018, 07:13:30 PM
You're all doing great work in this thread, amazing. Please keep relitigating 2014, it's not at all regressive.

Do enlighten everyone about how to be progressive in 2018.

marquis_de_sad

Quote from: Twed on August 13, 2018, 07:13:30 PM
You're all doing great work in this thread, amazing. Please keep relitigating 2014, it's not at all regressive.

Hi guys, just popping in to say that I am better than this thread and would never post in it, unlike like you losers.

Zetetic

I guess I have to move on from worrying about Skyrim's (2011) depiction of racism to discussing the depiction of racism in Skyrim VR (2018).

Mister Six

Quote from: Twed on August 13, 2018, 07:13:30 PM
You're all doing great work in this thread, amazing. Please keep relitigating 2014, it's not at all regressive.

Have you tried fucking off?