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It turns out everyone is horrible (tw: possible GamerGate thread)

Started by Barry Admin, August 06, 2018, 11:30:15 AM

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Zetetic

Quote from: Penfold on August 06, 2018, 10:36:37 PM
I remember that being a thing by people who didn't back it but were really into consumer rights on that one kickstarter.
I suppose that's sort of a boycott.

Barry Admin

Quote from: Pdine on August 06, 2018, 10:46:03 PM
(a) feminist cultural criticism being (finally) brought to bear on one of the few areas of popular culture it had yet to reach
(b) the boom in indie gaming brought about by publishing platforms like XBox Live Arcade and Steam, and dev platforms like Unity resulting in games about experiences other than those of putative space marines

Was (b) actually a problem? All I remember along those lines were the complaints about games journalists funding the patreons of indie devs, not disclosing relationships etc. I'm not sure why anyone would care about a more diverse market if the diversity takes place upon the fringes, and the core products remain unchanged. As I said above, there was definitely a fear that (a) would have an impact on that core market.

Barry Admin

Quote from: Zetetic on August 06, 2018, 10:53:43 PM
I suppose that's sort of a boycott.

:-) There were definitely boycotts, and pressure exerted on advertisers. This (obviously biased) wiki has some as a starting point: http://thisisvideogames.com/gamergatewiki/index.php/Boycott_List

madhair60

I quite like the Leigh Alexander article linked earlier. I think it's pretty good stuff.

Kelvin

I wish people would just say 'right wing gamers' instead of gamers, or core gamers, or all these other catchall phrases that imply everyone who plays games shares the same values. 

It's not gamers who are misogynist, racist, and homophobic, it's right wing gamers, and they should be labelled as such during these debates. We have allowed them to define a vast, growing and varied community through their entitlement and our complacency.

BritishHobo

Quote from: Funcrusher on August 06, 2018, 10:51:13 PM
Your assessment seems to be that gaming is a cesspool of misogyny and racism and that gamers are a single hivemind of fear and hatred. I find it hard to believe that this isn't somewhat exaggerated.

I don't believe it's a hivemind, it's not that I think every gamer is wrong about all things - I still agree with plenty of mainstream opinions on gaming - I just think it's a culture where those attitudes are overwhelmingly and unavoidably prominent.

I know you see it as a very overblown stereotype, but do you think inside the exaggeration you see from anti-gamergaters that there's any truth to the promimence of them?

Z

Quote from: Twed on August 06, 2018, 10:29:46 PM
They also made it so that any reasonable criticism of Sarkeesian would be impossible, because it would be interpreted as a statement of allegiance to misogynists. Bit of an own goal. It all feeds off itself. Every reaction to any figure involved becomes an act of culture war.
I dunno if it was that much of an own goal.

How many people got dragged towards the right purely out of their inability to eloquently state the reasons they were frustrated by her? I imagine a lot of which ultimately boiled down to "it's frustrating that this person who openly admits to not really knowing what they're talking about is being paid to talk about games" but without a full grasp of just how utterly mental some people had gone about her it (and I definitely didn't realise until looking back in retrospect just how relentless one track it was), the kind of responses you'd have received would have seemed way worse than the biggest exaggerations of SJWs you'd've heard of.

Funcrusher

Quote from: Kelvin on August 06, 2018, 11:04:35 PM
I wish people would just say 'right wing gamers' instead of gamers, or core gamers, or all these other catchall phrases that imply everyone who plays games shares the same values. 

It's not gamers who are misogynist, racist, and homophobic, it's right wing gamers, and they should be labelled as such during these debates. We have allowed them to define a vast, growing and varied community through their entitlement and our complacency.

I would argue that there may now be a faction of gamers who have drifted to the alt-right after being shat on by faux-left SJWism, which is making the left in general look like shit.

madhair60

Oh without question, I've seen it happen. The Left try to be reasonable, meet the brick wall of sheer stupidity, lose their patience and just say mean shit (understandably) and then just fall right into the Phil Fish trap. Every five seconds for years, "faggot, faggot, faggot, faggot", after two years he lashes out "well, my goodness, how uncouth, what an attitude from a so-called progressive"

Penfold

Quote from: Funcrusher on August 06, 2018, 11:09:25 PM
I would argue that there may now be a faction of gamers who have drifted to the alt-right after being shat on by faux-left SJWism, which is making the left in general look like shit.

That attitude annoys me.

"someone says I'm racist?"

"I'm racist now, that'll show 'em"

Zetetic

Quote from: Barry Admin on August 06, 2018, 10:58:33 PM
:-) There were definitely boycotts, and pressure exerted on advertisers. This (obviously biased) wiki has some as a starting point: http://thisisvideogames.com/gamergatewiki/index.php/Boycott_List
Cheers - many of those of any consequence? It's easy to announce a boycott, less easy to prosecute one.

I do know they got Intel to drop Gamasutra (I think) for a month or two - not by boycotting, but letter-writing, mind you.

Edit: If you go on, say Rock Paper Shotgun's page, they have an Info Box with a Boycotted? field, which I think is quite funny.

BritishHobo

I think the reason the Sarkeesian stuff has always bothered me so strongly is I was following it from the day the Ķickstarter was announced, I saw how many people smugly crowed about how she would take the money and run, that it was all a scam, how they confidently perpetuated this long before any deadlines approached, and then how later it was treated as if her critics were just reasonably responding to flaws in her project. Lots of very vocal people had hatchets out before she even began. And then of course she ended up putting out more videos than originally promised.

Cloud

Admittedly I have sympathy for sane gamers in being lumped in with Gamergaters.  The "you don't speak out loud enough by our undefined standards against the bad apples in your community and therefore you're complicit" is the same shite levelled at Muslims now and at Jews before that.   (No I'm not comparing anti-GG to Hitler or some Godwin BS like that, but you get the idea)

That's not to say alt right gamergatey types are any less shit.

Quote from: Pdine on August 06, 2018, 08:25:20 PM
I reckon when people try to make sense of the current era in the future they will need to find a good way to talk about the internet communities that posted mainly on auto-deleting message boards and originated Anon, Gamergate and elements of the Alt Right. In a way it's a bit like the pamphleteering mania that happened in the C17th in that it's para-literature/para-history.

Yeah for that reason I don't think sense will be made of it, unless it's maybe "some theory about the Russians trolling the Western Internet"

I've already seen denial that they even exist or at least that they're at all relevant (even though IMO I think they've fed quite a bit into the greater polarisation/tribalism issues) plus we have what seem like an increasing number of people denying things with actual evidence like the holocaust or the moon landing(s), with that in mind I think the Gamergate and Alt Right etc will be fairly quickly forgotten and historians of the future will be puzzling hard at what the heck happened.
"SJW" by then will have blended in with other old insults towards progressives like hippie, namby pampy, PC Gone Mad etc.

Funcrusher

Quote from: BritishHobo on August 06, 2018, 11:06:57 PM
I don't believe it's a hivemind, it's not that I think every gamer is wrong about all things - I still agree with plenty of mainstream opinions on gaming - I just think it's a culture where those attitudes are overwhelmingly and unavoidably prominent.

I know you see it as a very overblown stereotype, but do you think inside the exaggeration you see from anti-gamergaters that there's any truth to the promimence of them?

I don't really see a lot of truth in it. I was watching a few podcasts and reading Reddits from the Gamergate side at the time and no one was calling women whores or any of this other hooey. Some of the main participants were women or non-white males, and yet allegedly all Gamergaters were frothing misogynists and racists. I suspect that the number of cross burning hatemongers in gaming is small. There are probably gamers who are prone to making sexist jokes or using 'edgy' slurs - they could perhaps do with growing up a bit, but then some of them are probably still young. I honestly don't think this means they hate anyone, and their counterparts on the other side are also immature in their sanctimonious prudery.

Funcrusher

Quote from: Penfold on August 06, 2018, 11:13:26 PM
That attitude annoys me.

"someone says I'm racist?"

"I'm racist now, that'll show 'em"

Suppose 'someone' is a sanctimonious prat who is itching to call someone out for some infraction and I'm not actually a racist?

Penfold

Quote from: Funcrusher on August 06, 2018, 11:25:33 PM
Suppose 'someone' is a sanctimonious prat who is itching to call someone out for some infraction and I'm not actually a racist?

I'M RACIST NOW, THAT'LL SHOW 'EM!

Funcrusher

Quote from: madhair60 on August 06, 2018, 11:12:34 PM
Oh without question, I've seen it happen. The Left try to be reasonable, meet the brick wall of sheer stupidity, lose their patience and just say mean shit (understandably) and then just fall right into the Phil Fish trap. Every five seconds for years, "faggot, faggot, faggot, faggot", after two years he lashes out "well, my goodness, how uncouth, what an attitude from a so-called progressive"

To take your own example, was it really reasonable to jump on you for forgetting that the Wachowskis aren't brothers these days? Of course it still is according to Cunty McBannedsworth the caped crusader.

Funcrusher

Quote from: Penfold on August 06, 2018, 11:29:46 PM
I'M RACIST NOW, THAT'LL SHOW 'EM!

We are kind of seeing that with the growth of support for Tommy Robinson.

madhair60

Quote from: Funcrusher on August 06, 2018, 11:30:06 PM
To take your own example, was it really reasonable to jump on you for forgetting that the Wachowskis aren't brothers these days? Of course it still is according to Cunty McBannedsworth the caped crusader.

I didn't forget, I was just making a list of cinema credits based entirely on what was written on the movies themselves. I was even careful to note this as it was potentially going to cause a fuss, and I wanted to make it clear I was aware of the situation. Wasn't good enough, was cancelled. Now I'm only visible fleetingly, in mirrors and that.

Funcrusher

Quote from: madhair60 on August 06, 2018, 11:33:28 PM
I didn't forget, I was just making a list of cinema credits based entirely on what was written on the movies themselves. I was even careful to note this as it was potentially going to cause a fuss, and I wanted to make it clear I was aware of the situation. Wasn't good enough, was cancelled. Now I'm only visible fleetingly, in mirrors and that.

I think we may have started to see the back of full on nonsense like that. For all that the alt-right have picked up the anti-SJW/free speech thing and run with it, a few so-called progressives have done some really dumb shit that gave them the idea for it.

madhair60

Well, realistically, while I think the reaction I got was too far by half, there's no real reason I couldn't have just written Lana and Lilly instead of their deadnames. I did so out of consistency in a list that, you know, doesn't matter. There's no real reason for me not to have done it. And in future I'll do it. I'd have reached the same conclusion if I'd been met with politeness, so it really doesn't matter that much.

BritishHobo

Quote from: Funcrusher on August 06, 2018, 11:21:50 PM
I don't really see a lot of truth in it. I was watching a few podcasts and reading Reddits from the Gamergate side at the time and no one was calling women whores or any of this other hooey. Some of the main participants were women or non-white males, and yet allegedly all Gamergaters were frothing misogynists and racists. I suspect that the number of cross burning hatemongers in gaming is small. There are probably gamers who are prone to making sexist jokes or using 'edgy' slurs - they could perhaps do with growing up a bit, but then some of them are probably still young. I honestly don't think this means they hate anyone, and their counterparts on the other side are also immature in their sanctimonious prudery.

I suppose that's the fundamental problem in this kind of debate. I saw what I saw, you saw what you saw, and then everything got so entrenched in these communities you could bury King Kong in the gulf. Short of us each compiling lists of two hundred links to different reddit comments that show what we say, that's tough to get past.

Penfold

Quote from: Funcrusher on August 06, 2018, 11:31:46 PM
We are kind of seeing that with the growth of support for Tommy Robinson.

I kind of want to call them fucking morons but then I think you'd say I'd need to engage with them in good faith and win them over, but really anyone who goes towards that way of thinking is a dick. I don't want to feel like I'm giving up on them, especially when they are family, but now they seem really into it. So, they're a dick, in their 30s. They should shut up about Dragon Ball Z.


Bazooka

It's not playing games though is it? It's the anonymity of the internet.

BritishHobo

Quote from: Bazooka on August 06, 2018, 11:49:29 PM
It's not playing games though is it? It's the anonymity of the internet.

Then how come people on book forums aren't calling Judith Butler an SJW feminazi?

Funcrusher

Quote from: BritishHobo on August 06, 2018, 11:45:28 PM
I suppose that's the fundamental problem in this kind of debate. I saw what I saw, you saw what you saw, and then everything got so entrenched in these communities you could bury King Kong in the gulf. Short of us each compiling lists of two hundred links to different reddit comments that show what we say, that's tough to get past.

I guess. My answer to Barry's question as to whether gamers are deserving of such huge levels of hatred would be no.

Funcrusher

Quote from: Bazooka on August 06, 2018, 11:49:29 PM
It's not playing games though is it? It's the anonymity of the internet.

That said, Gamergaters remain anonymous partly because the media made no effort as far as i can tell to approach anyone involved, despite there being named individuals visible on YouTube and elsewhere.

Moribunderast

I play games a lot but, as someone noted earlier, I find game forums and the like completely alien due to the toxicity and level of discourse therein. I think it's a symptom of how divisive and shit communication via the internet has become anyway but gaming (to the extent that one describes it as a serious hobby or, god forbid, a way of life) tends to skew to young males or adult males with strong nostalgic bents, so there's an element of "go away, yucky girl" that is prevalent, to my eyes, at least. That played itself out over the GamerGate thing, where despite the cries about ethics in game journalism, most of the threads I read when I tried to understand the pro-gamergate side were just weird obsessive attacks on Sarkeesian and Quinn. I'm no Sarkeesian fan but the level of vitriol, threats and obsessive anger I saw directed her way was honestly gobsmacking given all she'd done was commit the crime of doing bog-average critical analysis of games. Of course, that level of vitriol and threats is now commonplace among the internet and perpetuated by both sides of the political divide so... hooray?

Obviously it's #notallgamers but go to a film site and discuss movies, then go to a game site and discuss games and you'll notice a difference in the level of discourse and toxicity. If you play an online game with/against anonymous people, you basically expect to be routinely called a fag or a n**ger or a kike or whatever. You like to assume that these slurs are coming from dumb kids or edgelord teens but a sad amount of them are coming from adults who apparently just talk this way to strangers and think that's dandy. You see some of the "controversies" that arise from gaming circles - "There's a WOMAN in Battlefield! That's disrespectful to ARE BRAVE BOYS!" / "The Nazis are the BAD GUYS in Wolfenstein 2? This game is SJW Trash!" / "You have to be BLACK in Watch Dogs 2?!?!" - and you just wonder how some people's minds work. Admittedly, there is an element of those views being magnified by "news" agencies for clicks but having visited forums, there are a staggering number of people who do get upset about women as playable characters in games, or Nazis as villains, or minority characters being front-and-centre. I've got no idea if this is a newish thing that's reflective of the hyper-divided, super-racist and sexist nature of the internet nowadays or if it's views that were always there but given more spotlight due to how social media works. Either way, I don't see the like when I'm discussing music online, or books, or the works of Werner Herzog. "You like Grizzly Man, you fucking noob kike? Go watch Aguirre: Wrath Of God before I rape you!"


Moribunderast

Quote from: Funcrusher on August 06, 2018, 11:25:33 PM
Suppose 'someone' is a sanctimonious prat who is itching to call someone out for some infraction and I'm not actually a racist?

I've been called out like this before quite a few times (called a misogynist, not a racist) and it just made me laugh - it didn't suddenly back me into aligning with views I despise. I think it gives people a far too easy out to say they've been badgered into aligning with the alt-right or whatever group because "SJWs" were constantly nagging and pushing and cancelling. You can find that annoying without altering the fabric of your being and going "Okay, if you SAY I'm racist and sexist then I'll BE racist and sexist!" Those views or support for those views don't come out of nowhere - if they do, I'd argue the person suddenly espousing said views due to "sanctimonious prats" had no sense of self or backbone to begin with.