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#BOPO

Started by Shoulders?-Stomach!, August 18, 2018, 07:50:09 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

pancreas

Quote from: Paul Calf on August 19, 2018, 07:42:01 AM
An interesting demonstration of what happens when people are encouraged to indulge their prejudices against people they imagine not to be present - glibly condemning them to suffering and death. It's not hard to see the real reasons for Trump, Brexit and historical abuses of power in democracies.

#hodgecomparisons

Johnny Yesno

#podgecomparisons

manticore

I've got to come clean and say Twit 2 had me fooled with his irony too.

Quote from: Beagle 2 on August 19, 2018, 10:38:09 AM
The area where I work, it's a shitty area. There's a McDonalds, couple of cafes serving slop. The convenience stores are packed with chocolate, crisps, fizzy drinks, bacon and eggs, frozen pizza, pies - the "essentials". There's a chippy. It's not easy enough to eat healthily, especially in poor areas. It should be easier, fresh healthy food should be available everywhere. It's the market and culture that needs to change, slagging off fat people and saying "simply make a hearty vegetable casserole" isn't going to achieve much.

In my case, when I used to eat for mainly psychological reasons, healthy food just wouldn't have done it for me. It just wouldn't have filled the hole that snacks and pasties and chocolate and Indian sweetmeats did. I tend to think it mostly comes from early childhood and the food you were given to make you feel good then, and that's something that needs to be adressed most of all.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Quote from: Beagle2The area where I work, it's a shitty area. There's a McDonalds, couple of cafes serving slop. The convenience stores are packed with chocolate, crisps, fizzy drinks, bacon and eggs, frozen pizza, pies - the "essentials". There's a chippy. It's not easy enough to eat healthily, especially in poor areas. It should be easier, fresh healthy food should be available everywhere. It's the market and culture that needs to change, slagging off fat people and saying "simply make a hearty vegetable casserole" isn't going to achieve much.

I quite agree, but neither is encouraging people who are harming their own health to find shelter in aggrandizing hashtags.

Zetetic

Dunno. Might cheer them up a bit.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Quote from: Zetetic on August 19, 2018, 09:32:11 PM
Dunno. Might cheer them up a bit.

I don't really see that you'd say that were the issue drink or drugs, for example, and there was a 'my body my choice' type counter-culture movement.

Zetetic

No, I probably wouldn't say exactly that, because I'd recognise that the issue was different in terms of the level of existing challenge for environmental factors, in terms of the causal routes for individuals and in terms of the immediate impact on others.

It seems to me that this is a vanishingly small number of people, and that if you're going to spend time being worked up by obesity in other people it might as well be spent worrying about things like advertising of junk food on family time TV. In line with the Labour obesity strategy and even organisations like CRUK, despite their OB_S_TY campaign.

Zetetic

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on August 19, 2018, 09:40:11 PM
I don't really see that you'd say that were the issue drink or drugs, for example,
Suggested alternative 'issues' that might cause to me to reconsider more deeply - racism, self-harm(/self-injury/cutting).

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on August 19, 2018, 09:40:11 PM
I don't really see that you'd say that were the issue drink or drugs, for example, and there was a 'my body my choice' type counter-culture movement.

I certainly would. Too many ignorant fucks have too much to say about what other people put in their own bodies.

What were the hippies if they weren't a '"my body my choice" type counter-culture movement'?

Fonz

I believe education about health and nutrition is key.

If you provide folks with that knowledge, and they choose to ignore it , fine. It's like people who choose to smoke. It isn't my business.

However, keeping fit and eating 'sensibly' takes a bit of work and application. It does require a bit of discipline to have a healthy sandwich then a greasy pile of shit from a Greggs. Choosing to walk instead of taking a car or bus for short journeys takes a bit of commitment.

Not everyone who is 'curvy' has mental health issues.
Take my friend, for example. He's just a lazy cunt.

Twed

Quote from: Fonz on August 20, 2018, 10:02:39 AM
I believe education about health and nutrition is key.

If you provide folks with that knowledge, and they choose to ignore it , fine.
Patronising. What specifically do you think that is "key" to not being obese that people don't know?

Twed

Quote from: Twed on August 20, 2018, 10:06:46 AM
Patronising. What specifically do you think that is "key" to not being obese that people don't know?
The last person who I caught smugly talking about obesity and education thought that eating an entire bunch of grapes constituted a healthy meal, because "it's just fibre and water".

thenoise

I've lost 2 stone in the past year, the only changes I've made is that I am happier, I live with a lovely lady and I have about twice the income as I did before despite working less than a half of the hours1.
Stressful day at work being pushed around by uneducated jobsworth cunts?  Eat shit.
No time to cook or shop between day job and evening second job?  Eat shit.
Not enough sleep last night and struggling to keep eyes open to look keen and pretend to be working at pointless office job?  Eat shit.
Cooking for someone I care about?  Eat nice healthy food.
A couple of hours free and a car to travel to some decent shops?  Eat nice healthy food.
A nice lie in a few days a week, and averaging over 7 hours in general?  Eat nice healthy food.


1. the only downside is that she has to live with a fat poor underemployed cunt

Buelligan

I think it can also depend on what you like to eat.  I used to sometimes buy a bar of dark chocolate or some yoghurts because I thought I might want/need to eat some quick calories.  They just sit and wait for that moment and then go in the bin. 

Fonz

Quote from: Twed on August 20, 2018, 10:06:46 AM
Patronising. What specifically do you think that is "key" to not being obese that people don't know?

Arm people with the information they need to make good choices about what they eat.
In my wide experience of being a patronising bastard, a lot of overweight people display a huge amount of ignorance about fairly basic nutrition.

The message hasn't reached a lot of people that excess calories ingested leads to weight gain etc etc

I'm all for 'patronising' people (aka teaching them) if the result is better health.

I have no sympathy for people, who aren't mentally ill, who stand there, doughnut in hand, saying "why am I so big?"
I'm glad that folks feel empowered to be curvy by BOPO or whatever, but in the main I think it's a monumental cop-out, and I don't see why society should feel browbeaten into enabling obesity when a bit of effort put into teaching kids the basics of nutrition might curtail the time bomb of diabetes and obesity.

bgmnts

99% of overweight people - who are overweight for this reason - do know they are overweight due to less exercise and a less healthy diet.

Although I am confused, how can one admit there is not enough information for overweight people out there whilst simultaneously have no sympathy for them? Either it's totally their fault or its not.

Endicott


Paul Calf


Here's an excellent column from George Monbiot about the obesity epidemic and why we shouldn't blame the overweight:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/15/age-of-obesity-shaming-overweight-people

Fonz

Quote from: bgmnts on August 20, 2018, 11:30:41 AM
99% of overweight people - who are overweight for this reason - do know they are overweight due to less exercise and a less healthy diet.

Although I am confused, how can one admit there is not enough information for overweight people out there whilst simultaneously have no sympathy for them? Either it's totally their fault or its not.

It isn't that binary, is it.

The curvy, wilfully ignorant, lazy, who complains that they're fat...   why would I have sympathy?

The curvy person who doesn't understand why they are overweight, and wants to do something about it...  total support.

Accepting the fact that somehow society can help people live healthier lives and help their children to live healthier... who wouldn't want that?


bgmnts

Quote from: Fonz on August 20, 2018, 01:49:07 PM
It isn't that binary, is it.

The curvy, wilfully ignorant, lazy, who complains that they're fat...   why would I have sympathy?

The curvy person who doesn't understand why they are overweight, and wants to do something about it...  total support.

Accepting the fact that somehow society can help people live healthier lives and help their children to live healthier... who wouldn't want that?

Because you're saying society doesnt do enough to inforn people...

Fonz

What I do find patronising is the tendency of some people, seemingly, to want to congratulate people for being big, when clearly its in no ones' interest to promote obesity as a good thing.

Helping people with self-esteem issues should be able to go hand in hand with health education, but when folks get criticised for calling a shovel a shovel it closes down the opportunity.

Fonz

Quote from: bgmnts on August 20, 2018, 01:51:19 PM
Because you're saying society doesnt do enough to inforn people...

The wilfully ignorant=the people with the info they need who choose to ignore it

bgmnts

Quote from: Fonz on August 20, 2018, 01:56:01 PM
The wilfully ignorant=the people with the info they need who choose to ignore it

How do you know this?

Also, who is well informed? I have researched every kind of diet and nutrional requirenent and I barely have any idea what I should be eating.

Also, what if someone was wilfully ignorant but just didnt have the time or money to consistently eat healthily?

Finally, what about ignorant, lazy skinny cunts?

Buelligan

Maybe it isn't helpful to think of all obese people as the same?  Surely, as with people who smoke or any other group, there are many, many, different reasons for the life choices they make?

Fonz

Quote from: Buelligan on August 20, 2018, 02:03:36 PM
Maybe it isn't helpful to think of all obese people as the same?  Surely, as with people who smoke or any other group, there are many, many, different reasons for the life choices they make?

I'm certainly not lumping all overweight people into the same basket. They're a heterogenous group, and I don't think any one is suggesting that they are (the same).


Fonz

Quote from: bgmnts on August 20, 2018, 02:00:05 PM
How do you know this?

Also, who is well informed? I have researched every kind of diet and nutrional requirenent and I barely have any idea what I should be eating.


Well, if your diet is fundamentally balanced, and you are otherwise healthy, but you are big, and trying to lose weight, just eat less of what you do eat.
If you struggle to decide what specifically you could cut down on (not necessarily eliminate...) start with foods that contain a lot of sugar and/or fat.

See. Patronising and informative.

bgmnts

Quote from: Fonz on August 20, 2018, 02:24:12 PM
Well, if your diet is fundamentally balanced, and you are otherwise healthy, but you are big, and trying to lose weight, just eat less of what you do eat.
If you struggle to decide what specifically you could cut down on (not necessarily eliminate...) start with foods that contain a lot of sugar and/or fat.

See. Patronising and informative.

How much less?

manticore

I say listen to thenoise, he speaks from experience and makes sense. In my bordering-on-compulsive eating days I was trying to fill a hole. I was lucky enough to get just mildly overweight and then I came across the F-Plan diet and followed that to a fanatic extreme, losing weight but also becoming dehydrated with too much fibre and making myself feel ill. These are self-defeating ways of coping with a bad existence. People have a million ways of doing it, like spending every possible hour with music on, or the TV or whatever.

I don't think either moralizing or unconditional affirmation help much. People start to take responsibility for themselves when they understand themselves better and understand the circumstances that lead them to feel the way they do.

Blue Jam

Quote from: Beagle 2 on August 19, 2018, 10:38:09 AM
The area where I work, it's a shitty area. There's a McDonalds, couple of cafes serving slop. The convenience stores are packed with chocolate, crisps, fizzy drinks, bacon and eggs, frozen pizza, pies - the "essentials". There's a chippy. It's not easy enough to eat healthily, especially in poor areas. It should be easier, fresh healthy food should be available everywhere. It's the market and culture that needs to change, slagging off fat people and saying "simply make a hearty vegetable casserole" isn't going to achieve much.

...especially when a lot of people simply can't cook, or don't have the time.

In addition to that, cooking vegetables properly is much harder than cooking meat, and in the UK especially, a lot of people have grown up being fed badly-cooked vegetables and have developed an aversion to them as a result. Someone on here once made the point that Yotam Ottoleghi has has a big impact here, by showing people that vegetables won't end up mushy and bland if you season them properly and don't overcook them.

There's also that oft-parroted bit of received wisdom, "Cooking from scratch is healthier and cheaper". Anyone who actually cooks from scratch with fresh ingredients on a regular basis will know this to be bollocks- home-cooked food isn't necessarily healthier, and is sure as fuck isn't cheaper than buying ready meals. I remember watching that Jamie Oliver series where he tried to teach a whole village to cook via "pass it on"- teaching a small number of people to cook a number of recipes, and getting them each to teach five people, who would teach five more people, etc. He failed, partly because he hadn't anticipated people not being able to afford the ingredients- there was one scene where a woman sobbed "I'm running out of stuff to sell" and when he tried to give her a hug she pushed him away.

I think Jamie Oliver learned the hard way that there isn't a simple solution to the obesity epidemic.