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JAWS (shark film)

Started by Ballad of Ballard Berkley, August 21, 2018, 03:06:11 PM

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kalowski

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."

St_Eddie

Once again, a thread is derailed because controlling busy bodies can't keep their own bugbears to themselves.  Well done, folks.

the science eel


St_Eddie

What are people's thoughts on Jaws 2?  Personally, I think that it's a fairly decent attempt at recapturing the feel and tone of the first film (though obviously nowhere not as good).  I was actually quite surprised to learn that Steven Spielberg didn't direct it, when I looked it up on IMDB a few years back.  I kind of always assumed that he did and that it was a bit of a The Lost World situation, with Spielberg returning but on auto-pilot, filming a sequel to a beloved movie of his because of popular demand.

Shit Good Nose

As totally unnecessary sequels go, it's okay.  It has a few good moments and Scheider is excellent in it.

Spielberg nearly did direct it - twice - and its production history is every bit as fascinating as the original's (I've already recommended the Jaws 2 Log earlier in the thread).

The best thing about it, of course, is that brilliant tagline (also cf. that other completely unnecessary but not terrible sequel with a brilliant tagline - Aliens vs. Predator).

To be honest, given the choice, I'd choose 3 over 2 most of the time.  2 is obviously the better film, but I find 3 endlessly entertaining because of its mostly-shitness.

greenman

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on August 22, 2018, 10:14:34 AM
As I say every time a Jaws (shark film) thread pops up, or Jaws (shark film) is mentioned, it's not my favourite film of all time (it's certainly number 2 or 3, though), but I think it is the most perfect film ever made, or as close as any film has come to being perfect - the script, the direction, the acting, the pace, the editing, the cinematography, the comedy, the drama, the horror, the score, the length, the effects, absolutely everything is spot on.

I would say Chinatown the year before as well stands out, not sure I would call either among my very favourite films but I'd struggle to find any weaknesses in them.

kalowski

Quote from: St_Eddie on August 22, 2018, 06:45:24 PM
What are people's thoughts on Jaws 2?  Personally, I think that it's a fairly decent attempt at recapturing the feel and tone of the first film (though obviously nowhere not as good).  I was actually quite surprised to learn that Steven Spielberg didn't direct it, when I looked it up on IMDB a few years back.  I kind of always assumed that he did and that it was a bit of a The Lost World situation, with Spielberg returning but on auto-pilot, filming a sequel to a beloved movie of his because of popular demand.
If you'd asked me a couple of years ago I'd have said it was great and was one of the better sequels made. However, I saw it again last year and realised it was fucking terrible. Not Jaws 3 or 4 terrible, but just poor. Scheider is good but he was good in almost everything he was in.

St_Eddie

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on August 22, 2018, 06:54:23 PM
Spielberg nearly did direct it - twice - and its production history is every bit as fascinating as the original's (I've already recommended the Jaws 2 Log earlier in the thread).

I remember going down a rabbit hole of production woes, when I was researching Jaws 2 (sequel to shark film), a few years ago.  Fascinating stuff.

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on August 22, 2018, 06:54:23 PMTo be honest, given the choice, I'd choose 3 over 2 most of the time.  2 is obviously the better film, but I find 3 endlessly entertaining because of its mostly-shitness.

I can fully understand that but I mostly find Jaws 3 to be borderline unwatchable.  Save for three sequences; the diver in the tunnel being swallowed whole; the bit where a bloke unnecessarily pushes a woman's face up against the glass to get a better look at the floating corpse and of course, the static shark slowly crashing through the observation window.  Those are the only moments which I found to be entertainingly shite.  Everything else was a snooze fest, in my opinion.

St_Eddie

Quote from: kalowski on August 22, 2018, 07:08:24 PM
If you'd asked me a couple of years ago I'd have said it was great and was one of the better sequels made. However, I saw it again last year and realised it was fucking terrible. Not Jaws 3 or 4 terrible, but just poor. Scheider is good but he was good in almost everything he was in.

I do recall being disappointed when I last watched it, as I was a big fan of Jaws 2 as a kid.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

It's a different film, it's a very different film. It's a different shark!

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on August 22, 2018, 08:06:09 PM
It's a different shark!

Same moulds though.


What do we all think of Italian knock-offs The Last Shark (a rip-off of Jaws and Jaws 2, and also predicts some ideas used in Jaws 3) and Cruel Jaws, which was marketed as Jaws 5 in some territories?

AsparagusTrevor

Quote from: St_Eddie on August 22, 2018, 07:11:20 PM
I remember going down a rabbit hole of production woes, when I was researching Jaws 2 (sequel to shark film), a few years ago.  Fascinating stuff.

I can fully understand that but I mostly find Jaws 3 to be borderline unwatchable.  Save for three sequences; the diver in the tunnel being swallowed whole; the bit where a bloke unnecessarily pushes a woman's face up against the glass to get a better look at the floating corpse and of course, the static shark slowly crashing through the observation window.  Those are the only moments which I found to be entertainingly shite.  Everything else was a snooze fest, in my opinion.

Jaws 3 is one of those faddy 3D films where everything is thrown into the screen at whatever cost, even if the VFX aren't up to it. It just about works as a gimmicky 3D film akin to a ride (though it does take some of the stereoscopy to headache-inducing levels) but in 2D you just wonder why lots of badly matted shit keeps getting chucked at the camera.

Swoz_MK

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on August 22, 2018, 08:12:09 PM
What do we all think of Italian knock-offs The Last Shark (a rip-off of Jaws and Jaws 2, and also predicts some ideas used in Jaws 3) and Cruel Jaws, which was marketed as Jaws 5 in some territories?

Watched TLS for the first time in years just last week. I like it, quite a bit actually. Bloody LOVE the underwater scenes with the miniatures. Shark looks decent a lot of the time in the abobve water scenes too. Good fun.
Cruel Jaws, is that the one that uses different John Williams scores?!

AsparagusTrevor

#73
Quote from: Swoz_MK on August 23, 2018, 09:55:15 AMCruel Jaws, is that the one that uses different John Williams scores?!
I think 'Cruel Jaws' (because the original Jaws just wasn't cruel enough) even nicked footage from Jaws.

Speaking of Jaws rip-off The Last Shark (AKA Great White), it shamelessly had nearly the exact same plot as Jaws and hilariously had an author character named Peter Benton. Special mention should also go to 'Tintorera' which combined the 70's love of soft porn with the then-recent shark-craze.

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

Quote from: St_Eddie on August 22, 2018, 03:22:35 PM
Yes, Speilberg originally filmed a model of the Kintner boy being eaten by the animatronic shark but ultimately decided to cut the shot because, depending on the source, it was either deemed too phony looking, or too grizzly.  Yet another case of the (shooting) stars aligning for Spielberg's shark film, as the brief flash of a fin is far more effective.  The only surviving still of the original shot is pretty fucking scary though, to be fair...


I can't believe I've never seen that image before, thanks for sharing it.

It's certainly horrific but also borderline funny - the terrifying scale of the shark contrasted with an innocent little boy asleep on a lilo feels quite OTT. As you say, what we see in the film is far more effective - Alex being thrown into the air amidst an explosive geyser of blood and a frenzied flash of fins. It's one of the most frightening moments in the shark film.

Also, there's absolute NO WAY that Jaws (shark film) would've received a PG-rating if we actually saw Bruce devouring a child. It's still one of the goriest PG shark films ever, but that would've been too much.

biggytitbo


Ballad of Ballard Berkley

Yep, that's a creepy tale.

AsparagusTrevor

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on August 22, 2018, 04:04:08 PMOne of (but not the only) reasons it was trimmed is because at one point the top two thirds of Bruce's entire body rise above the water level.  It still looks pretty terrifying, but is also, obviously, physically impossible.

At least we finally got to see that kind of shark acrobatics in Jaws the Revenge.

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

Quote from: kalowski on August 22, 2018, 02:33:09 PM
I assume that article meant that the shark's face and teeth - is the supposed threatening part of it. From memory you don't see that until just before, "You're gonna need a bigger boat" which must be well into the last forty minutes.
Perhaps you see a flash when the Kittner boy is taken. Obviously this arose because if the problems with the mechanical shark, but Spielberg used it to his advantage so we see a fin, a shadow, a jetty on the end of a chain but not the whole shark.

You catch a fleeting glimpse of Bruce and his jaws during the 4th of July sequence - when he bites that fella's leg off - but as you say, you don't see him properly until "You're gonna need a bigger boat" in the final act. Jaws has a running time of 124 minutes. For approximately 84 of those minutes, the head and body of the shark are barely seen at all. You only see fins.

Here's some unused footage from the 4th of July scene, in which yer man, yer Bruce and yer Michael Brody partake in a dance as old as time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc0KsiMsyZ4

Despite what the actor says, Spielberg probably didn't use it because the victim appears to be sitting on the shark's head. Michael's legs must be dangling somewhere near its mouth.

I know it's just a bit of rough footage that Spielberg would've polished in the edit, but I prefer what we see in the final film. At that point in the story, there was no need for a random act of heroism from a character we've never met before. Michael's trauma is convincing enough without putting him through the insane ordeal of being dragged through the sea by a gruesomely dying man clenched between the jaws of a shark.

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

Alex Kintner being killed by Bruce as originally envisioned. Quite horrific! I said before that the still looked OTT, but that brief shot is anything but.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTaxZJ-ksiw

Ballad of Ballard Berkley

A documentary about the making of Jaws 2 (second shark film).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HNuAOU3oE4

I love that original draft idea: Amity post-Jaws (shark film) being a depressed ghost town, tortured in the wake of what its gone through. But that was too uncommercial, apparently.

The very idea of an Amity-based Jaws sequel makes no sense whatsoever - what, another fucking shark is attacking the same community? - but I do like that concept of making it incredibly downbeat and hopeless. As if these people are cursed because of their corrupt, venal overlords. Just like America, aaaaahh.

As it stands, the residents of Amity Island come across as inexplicably untroubled and naive in Jaws 2.

Glebe

Was watching it on ITV4 last night. Then I saw Jaws T-shirts in Penneys today.

Blumf

For a town that's on the sea, there seems to be very few people who actually know anything about sailing or fish.

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: Ballad of Ballard Berkley on August 23, 2018, 10:43:37 PM
A documentary about the making of Jaws 2 (second shark film).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HNuAOU3oE4

I love that original draft idea: Amity post-Jaws (shark film) being a depressed ghost town, tortured in the wake of what its gone through. But that was too uncommercial, apparently.

The very idea of an Amity-based Jaws sequel makes no sense whatsoever - what, another fucking shark is attacking the same community? - but I do like that concept of making it incredibly downbeat and hopeless. As if these people are cursed because of their corrupt, venal overlords. Just like America, aaaaahh.

As it stands, the residents of Amity Island come across as inexplicably untroubled and naive in Jaws 2.

The Jaws 2 novel was based on the original script, so it retains all of that depressed ghost town stuff.  I think it's also much better than the original Jaws novel, which I've always said is a bit shit really.  Spielberg thought so too cos he told everyone to read Moby Dick instead.

buzby

Quote from: Ballad of Ballard Berkley on August 23, 2018, 09:56:03 PM
Alex Kintner being killed by Bruce as originally envisioned. Quite horrific! I said before that the still looked OTT, but that brief shot is anything but.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTaxZJ-ksiw
It's not that outlandish- here's a Great White breaching while attacking a dummy seal:

St_Eddie

Quote from: Ballad of Ballard Berkley on August 23, 2018, 11:53:07 AM
...there's absolute NO WAY that Jaws (shark film) would've received a PG-rating if we actually saw Bruce devouring a child. It's still one of the goriest PG shark films ever, but that would've been too much.

There's absolutely NO WAY that Jaws (shark film) would receive a PG rating if it were released today.  Period.

Same thing for Raiders of the Lost Ark and a bunch of other 70's/80's movies.  More's the pity.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

It would be a 12A

I saw it at the the cinema a few years ago, possibly marking its 40th anniversary. One of the people I went with was eager to explained their theory that it's not a horror film but a drama. I'm not sure I'd go as far as that - Quint's death is one of the scariest scenes I've ever watched - but it certainly does have a measured pace. If anything would be a barrier to it being released these days, I expect it would be that. I saw a video on youtube that posited the shark as a metaphor for Brody's alcoholism. This video www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW3oLMBr4sw

They're reading the book on the radio this weekend, shit though it might be https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bgpfw3

iamcoop

This thread inspired me to watch the film again with my partner who fancies herself as a bit of a film buff but oddly had never seen it.

Despite her knowing the basic plot of the film and her brother going on beforehand about how bad the animatronic shark looks at points, she loved it and was terrified Throughout most of it. So it still works. Fantastic film.

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on August 24, 2018, 05:09:43 PM
One of the people I went with was eager to explained their theory that it's not a horror film but a drama.

It's a thriller.

Shit Good Nose