BlackkKlansman (Spike Lee)

[Mister Six]

I have to agree with Mister Six and worldsgreatestsinner. The cop sting and the resultant celebrations were a Twin Peaks, or if you like, conservative fantasty of racism.

I was referencing Twin Peaks with reference to the way the constructed universe of the film is broached. I wouldn't say Twin Peaks is a conservative fantasy. If anything it punctures conservative notions that old-timey small-town life is all innocence and roses.

[TrenterPercenter]

Saw this.

I agree with everything Boots Riley had to say about it and i'll also say it ain't a great film from a artistic level either.

Needless to say the message behind it all is great and the end really hits home - but that's not much to do with the film which reminded me in parts of when Mac and Dennis remake Lethal Weapon.

3/5

[Howj Begg]

I was referencing Twin Peaks with reference to the way the constructed universe of the film is broached. I wouldn't say Twin Peaks is a conservative fantasy. If anything it punctures conservative notions that old-timey small-town life is all innocence and roses.

No, of course it isn't, which why I used the word 'or' to contrast it ;), but then made my meaning ambigious by using 'if you like' 🤦
I agree with your usage of the comparison, and that's how I meant it! A sort of creepy meta genre parody, with a dreamlike feel.

[Mister Six]

The cop sting and the resultant celebrations were a Twin Peaks, or if you like, conservative fantasty of racism. It was refreshing to have that meta quality at that point, as previously it had been mainly "realistic", and had raised a ton of questions in its wake. But this was directly confronting the audience just as the laughs turn sour, the "what happens next in the real world, away from this film". And then Charlottesville. It was brilliant.

Yes. I feel certain it was doing that, and it showed that Lee has not mellowed. I need to watch Chi-raq.

Yeah, in retrospect my confusion over that sequence seems silly. Of course he's dialling the fantasy elements up to 11, as if to say, "You've just been watching a silly fiction, this is the reality of the situation".

That Boots Riley just accepted the sting on its face without wondering whether there might be a higher purpose for that scene astounds, really. Has Spike Lee not even earned the benefit of the doubt yet...?

[Wet Blanket]

The Blindboy Boatclub podcast interview with Spike Lee is very good. They get on like a house ahad, and Lee relaxes enough to address to a certain extent how he feels about Boots Riley's criticisms and being criticised in general.   

[thugler]

Has he commented on that supposed fantasy scene? To me it had exactly the same unreal feel of the rest of the thing.

[Z]

in retrospect I'd have to agree too, the problem is that Spike Lee is generally so on the nose and broad that I'm used to just accepting some extremely out of place stuff.

I'm sure he'll clarify at some point if it was deliberate anyways, not the kind of guy who's just gonna keep that to himself.

[EOLAN]

Just back. As a white irishman, it was a good watch. Washington was solid though not carrying as much charisma as he does in Ballers. Himself and Driver had to play it all a bit cool.
Felix was probably my most compelling character, but I think that was helped cos I was convinced he was one of the Its Always Sunny in Philadelphia support cast, which probably had me sniggering at inappropriate times.
Harry Belafonte's section was strong but Alec Baldwin's piece seemed a bit tacked on. His presence took away I felt a bit and if that part of the script was necessary, a decent character actor should have taken it.

There were a few parts which seemed a bit heavy handed..especially the time the real Stallworth was being told that someone like Duke might become president some day.

Also, while it may not have been necessary to destroy all evidence of the investigation, wasn't it obvious that the Stallworths couldn't carry out the undercover routine anymore, with Felix's wife being arrested by the infiltrator.

Too nitpicky at this time of night perhaps. The end sequence footage was powerful and absolutely right to have.

[Lost Oliver]

Saw a trailer for this and thought it looked a lot like: The President of the United States... is a duck?!

Am I wrong?

[Pepotamo1985]

Bit late to the party on this but anyway - SPOILERS AHOY.

Thought this was pretty dire. Ridiculously heavy handed. Very baggy film which could have easily lost 20 minutes or so. Had the feel of a comedy, but with few jokes so there was just a weird cartoonish vibe in what would usually be very dramatic scenes. Characters were poorly drawn and either totally evil or totally good, the power of evoking horrible racist stuff was unearned and tacked on.

This x100. In fact, I'd raise the stakes and say it's easily one of the absolute worst films I've seen in a very, very long time.

For the sake of balance, technically it's pretty good - some very well shot scenes, often beautiful aesthetics, and I even found the ending transition (which seems to be highly unpopular) quite powerful and affecting (even if potentially obvious and/or unearned). However...

Drama

Bizarrely, given the subject matter and extreme dramatic license employed (most of the story never happened in any way, shape or form), it's palpably lacking in tension and intensity. Almost completely in fact.

The lie detector scene, for instance, falls completely flat, which surely takes an effort - Jewish undercover cop is locked in confined basement room with committed violent racist who is pressuring him at gunpoint to take the test and/or whip out his prick. Yet it just feels like a lame plot device or set piece, without any build, meaning or anxiety, which is promptly and totally forgotten about.

Same for Zimmerman forgetting where his fictional sick dad lives. Same for Felix knocking on Stallman's door. Same for Felix finding out Zimmerman is Zimmerman. Same for the denouement of the bomb being planted and going off (the fates of the KKK members only being mentioned jokily in passing by Stallman during his final call with Duke), which somehow jumps straight into Stallman strutting round the office high-fiving everyone. Once again agree with thugler - tonally it was seemingly aiming for cartoonish, feel-good comedy, without the jokes or joy (for the most part), so it all just felt weird.

Dialogue

Issues here were twofold, but intertwined - a total lack of subtlety, and so much flabby, clunky, excess chatter. I started keeping a mental tab of the most egregious examples almost immediately and largely lost track not long after. Some loom large though...

"I AGREE WITH J EDGAR HOOVER. The Black Panther party represents the greatest threat to the internal security of the country."
"I'm moving you to intelligence." "What will I do there?" "Intelligence."
"Why am I David Duke's security detail? Isn't...stopping the attack more important?"
"We don't rat on each other, we're a family here." "Sounds like some other people."
"Still think I'm a Jew?"
ETC

This wasn't helped by the awful delivery of Driver and Washington - both good performers terribly miscast - but the script seemed to largely consist of sledgehammered 'messages' or cringey sub-George Lucas exposition. You could cut at least 30 mins' worth of dialogue and not only lose less than nothing, but improve the film's pacing and overall quality immeasurably.

Politics

All female characters (what few there are anyway) are two-dimensional, ditzy, useless pushovers - perhaps just about excusable in the case of grotesque caricature racist bomber wife, totally unacceptable in the case of Angela Davis-lite. She's president of the black student union and obviously a prominent and popular organizer, but somehow totally feeble, self-effacing and unassertive, requiring support and protection from men always and with nothing of significance to say ever, really. Case in point, when grilling Stallman on whether he's a cop or not, all it takes is obviously manipulative, insincere flattery and something shiny to throw her off - because of course political convictions and the potential the guy you're falling for is a pig mean nought when there's a compliment and jewellery in the offing (she is a woman, after all).

Which leads us neatly to

no payoff when Ron tells his girlfriend he's a cop. From what we know about her, it's highly unlikely she wouldn't tell her brothers and sisters about this infiltration. Ron has put his whole investigation in serious jeopardy and Patrice's world has just been turned upside down. She'll have to choose between betraying her lover or betraying her comrades, and we've been told politics is her life. But instead of this being a turning point in the film, nothing really happens. She's just mildly ticked off about it and doesn't tell anyone.

My position might amount to/be informed by grief/outrage appropriation, but...I've done a lot of work on the UK 'spycops' scandal over the past 18 months, and I genuinely found this absolutely sickening. I've come to know personally several women deceived into long-term relationships by undercover officers, and they were (and largely remain to this day, if not more so, up to a decade later) emotionally, psychologically and mentally ravaged by the experience of finding out. Often, that the person who deceived them was actually trying to undermine the movement(s) they battled for and truly believed in (as Stallman did in the film and real life) was/is almost as devastating to discover as finding out the person they loved didn't actually exist. Yet this apparently highly political, charged, committed campaigner doesn't really give two shits.

On the undermining point, Boots Riley's essay was pretty much perfect so I won't bother regurgitating or synthesising his points/arguments.

So, erm, yeah. Fuck this movie and fuck Spike Lee.

[greenman]

So he's still firmly got his seat reserved on the "B" rocket ship?

[marquis_de_sad]

Bit late to the party on this but anyway [snip]

+1 karma, good review. Not convinced by the 'it was ironically shit' arguments.

[monolith]

Not convinced by the 'it was ironically shit' arguments.

Even the high fiving after the one racist cop had been busted?

[marquis_de_sad]

Even the high fiving after the one racist cop had been busted?

No, because as noted above, those moments were there throughout the film. The racist cop was a cartoon throughout. Almost literally a moustache-twirling villain. Was the misogynistic way the Patrice character was written an ironic comment on misogyny in the black nationalist movement? Or just a paper-thin female character that the writers got bored with half way through the film?

At best, Lee is trying to have his cake and eat it too. Like I said before, there are some good moments in this, so I can see how it works for some people, but for me it was too messy.

[Pepotamo1985]

No, because as noted above, those moments were there throughout the film.

Yep, it was just a stupid feel-good moment and I'm shocked anyone interpreted it otherwise. Maybe you could argue it was offset by the actual bleak ending and an intended stark contrast but nahhhh. That implies a far higher degree of subtlety and directorial dexterity than was on offer anywhere else in the movie. It was hero Stallman using his hero powers for hero purposes, end of.

Jesus Christ, this really was a total fucking mess wasn't it? Thinking about it more (I'd only just got out the cinema when I wrote my post last night), the characterisation was constantly all over the fucking shop (again not helped by poor performances and bad direction) and almost every aspect of the film was totally inconsistent. I almost walked out when the Chief congratulates the team on their super successful operation before demanding they end it, destroy all the files and never mention it again without explanation.

[marquis_de_sad]

I almost walked out when the Chief congratulates the team on their super successful operation before demanding they end it, destroy all the files and never mention it again without explanation.

That bit reminded me of I, Partridge when he writes, "My parents are dead now and my mum's sister Valerie - who disputes my version of events pretty vociferously - has gone medically demented, so I'm really the gospel here." Except in BlackkKlansman it wasn't played for laughs (or was it, aaaaaah!).

[marquis_de_sad]

(again not helped by poor performances and bad direction)

As I said upthread, I thought most of the performances were good. I think the problem was the script didn't know what it wanted to be, hence the inconsistent characterisation and multiple endings.

[Pepotamo1985]

As I said upthread, I thought most of the performances were good. I think the problem was the script didn't know what it wanted to be, hence the inconsistent characterisation and multiple endings.

I don't know, I thought Washington's delivery was constantly weak, lacking in conviction and he generally seemed totally out of his depth. I didn't buy him in any of the various roles he plays/are ascribed to his character by the inconsistent script, at times it felt like the performance of a rubbish child actor in a 90s action movie - lines (admittedly he didn't write the tosh) just said without understanding of meaning, context, etc.

Driver too I thought was hopelessly miscast - totally monotone and similarly passionless from the word go. Didn't buy him as an undercover, didn't buy him as a bitter racist (or undercover playing a bitter racist), didn't buy his crises of conscience, didn't buy his apparently growing political consciousness/whatever. The guy's talented but it was just totally the wrong role for him.

Conversely, I thought Eggold (Walter) and Pääkkönen (Felix) were fantastic.

[marquis_de_sad]

I didn't mind Driver's performance — I liked the way he did that bit where he talks about the racism of the white nationalists causing him to be aware of his Jewishness for the first time — but I agree about Washington. An unremarkable performance from him.

[Mister Six]

I like the way he says hhhhwhite.

Driver was fine, I thought.

Yep, it was just a stupid feel-good moment and I'm shocked anyone interpreted it otherwise.

Nahhhhh bollocks. The police chief who just shut down the case and demanded the destruction of all evidence is getting personally involved in an elaborate sting to catch a cop, despite the previously established cop-code, as is the black activist who hates the police and, a couple of scenes later, says she has to break up with Stallworth?

Lee is on the nose but he's not a fucking idiot.

I do agree that the film lacked tension though.

[marquis_de_sad]

Nahhhhh bollocks. The police chief who just shut down the case and demanded the destruction of all evidence is getting personally involved in an elaborate sting to catch a cop, despite the previously established cop-code, as is the black activist who hates the police and, a couple of scenes later, says she has to break up with Stallworth?

Lee is on the nose but he's not a fucking idiot.

What do you think of the Laura Harrier character in general? Is the portrayal of her part of this satirical element?

[Mister Six]

No, I agree that she's underwritten. They wanted her to represent an alternative viewpoint to Stallworth but didnt want to lean too hard into that, to the detriment of the character. Then again, maybe bulking up her role would have made the film seem (even?) more unfocused.

[marquis_de_sad]

I ask because both her and the racist cop were characters added by the screenwriters. Neither were in the book. To me they're both of a piece; one dimensional characters that would never exist in real life.

[Pepotamo1985]

Nahhhhh bollocks.

I guess we'll just have to disagree, to me it's very obviously a bunch of saccharine nonsense. At most it's a bone thrown to the audience given the less than positive actual ending. I mean come on, that officer has been a grotesque prick caricature the whole film, just waiting to get a cathartic comeuppance, and that's him getting it. The police chief is acting out of character because the characterisation in the film is terrible AND the writers need him to make up for ending the operation to exonerate him.

[marquis_de_sad]

I guess we'll just have to disagree, to me it's very obviously a bunch of saccharine nonsense. At most it's a bone thrown to the audience given the less than positive actual ending. I mean come on, that officer has been a grotesque prick caricature the whole film, just waiting to get a cathartic comeuppance, and that's him getting it. The police chief is acting out of character because the characterisation in the film is terrible AND the writers need him to make up for ending the operation to exonerate him.

Good point. If the intention was satire, then the racist cop should have been portrayed realistically, in contrast to the send-up of a happy ending in the arrest scene. At best, if their intention was satire, then they failed.

[Mister Six]

What wasn't realistic about the racist cop, and how familiar are you with actual racist cops?

[marquis_de_sad]

What wasn't realistic about the racist cop

I thought his performance was over the top. I'm guessing you didn't.

and how familiar are you with actual racist cops?

Is this a serious question?

[EOLAN]

The actions of the head cop and his crew did seem a bit out of character when charging the racist cop at the end. Could have partly covered for it if the had cop got to say that he would owe Shallworth big time if he does put his head down and keep quiet about the KKK Case.

[Pepotamo1985]

What wasn't realistic about the racist cop

I'm not saying racist cops didn't/don't behave like that, I'm saying the character was very obviously fantastical, outlandish and cartoonish - with these qualities particularly and specifically amplified in the movie because he's the only truly racist cop we meet.

His introduction clearly frames him as a primary antagonist for Stallworth in the most artless and obvious way, and all of his actions subsequently underline this. In fact, that initial scene and others (such as, of course, barging into Ron and knocking papers out of his hand) are straight out of the 'stereotypical jock bully in on-campus comedy' playbook. There's not one scene where he's not doing something to directly or indirectly undermine, insult or violate our protagonist and all he stands for, his path quite closely inversely mirrors Stallworth's (cathartic narrative writing 101), and there's no attempt whatsoever to add any nuance or depth to his character. He's a bad guy because he's a bad guy - and all his actions build up to the high-fiving payoff of him being hoisted on his own petard (another problematic scene from a political point of view, as it's yet another example of the film saying the system can be reformed best from within, rather than outside, but I digress).

You could obviously make the argument that sexually assaulting Patrice is something he would've done in real life (it almost certainly is), and I'm not saying he's as obviously ludicrous and grotesque as the cackling, crazed RoboCop rapists - but his lack of nuance is so boundless he makes Biff Tannen look like Tony Soprano by comparison. And given his total lack of nuance (and indeed the lack of depth, subtlety and intelligence in evidence everywhere else in the movie) I'm just not seeing this could be a big scam played on the audience  by Spike Lee.

[Mister Six]

He's in about four scenes, and comprises a minor subplot in a film that's already got a lot going on.And he never struck me as being fantastical or outlandish. Certainly no broader in his portrayal than most of the other characters. The whole film has a heightened, slightly cartoony/abstracted air (the score; the drunk Nazi bloke from I, Tonya; the direction of the black power gathering; the portrayal of David Duke - all contribute) and he doesn't feel out of step with any of that.

But the sting pushes out of that realm and into outright fantasy, and clearly I'm not alone in thinking so. If the film had just ended with the conversation about whether Stallworth's girlfriend was going to leave him I'd agree it was an odd misstep, but since it's followed by actual footage of real-life people being hurt and a real-life figure of authority actively and openly equivocating about Nazis, it seems clear to me that Lee is ratcheting up the artificiality to say "Okay we all had a good time, but in real life there are no convenient moments of grand justice. Don't wait around for someone in authority to fix things - get angry."

It's his way of making a Hollywood film about a serious event, with the usual Hollywood exaggerations and fabrications (like the bombing) without feeling like he's lying.