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BlackkKlansman (Spike Lee)

Started by surreal, August 25, 2018, 03:09:42 PM

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monolith

I don't know how anyone can see the sting at the end and think it wasn't deliberately ridiculous. There's things to criticise about the film but if you go for that scene then you look a bit silly.

marquis_de_sad

Quote from: Mister Six on September 07, 2018, 02:20:36 PM
But the sting pushes out of that realm and into outright fantasy, and clearly I'm not alone in thinking so. If the film had just ended with the conversation about whether Stallworth's girlfriend was going to leave him I'd agree it was an odd misstep, but since it's followed by actual footage of real-life people being hurt and a real-life figure of authority actively and openly equivocating about Nazis, it seems clear to me that Lee is ratcheting up the artificiality to say "Okay we all had a good time, but in real life there are no convenient moments of grand justice. Don't wait around for someone in authority to fix things - get angry."

I can't remember where I read this so I may have got it wrong, but I believe the idea to put the Charlottesville footage at the end came very late, as the event itself only happened weeks before they started filming. I imagine — and yeah this is speculation — that they had a number of endings and weren't sure which one to go with, then someone suggested tying it in with Charlottesville; there's the clear Duke connection after all. It ends the film well, but I feel like they shouldn't have included those other endings (or not all of them at least) as it gave the ending (the broader ending, not just the 21st century stuff) a disjointed feeling. As it is, the film is more powerful with that footage, but I wonder if people would defend the racist cop sting without it.

Without that footage, the endings sequence would be: Ron and Flip foil the Klan's bombing (and our most intense villain dies off-screen), then the gang call up Duke and laugh at him, then the gang works together to get rid of Bad Apple racist cop, then Ron and Patrice exchange banter at their apartment (when in reality she would detest him) only to discover a cross burning on the lawn. The battle won, but the war not yet over. So you had (in order) the thriller ending, the comedy ending, the feelgood/satire ending, the ominous blaxploitation ending. Without the (relatively long and powerfully edited) Charlottesville coda, I wonder how forgiving people would be about that mash-up at the end.

I think we've probably reached deadlock on the sting scene, but you asked rhetorically how much I'm familiar with racist cops. I could return that question by asking you how familiar you are with US cops' commitment to the bad apple theory of police corruption and institutionalised racism. Because I imagine most cops would watch BlackkKlansman and feel very very comfortable with the way the police were portrayed, including the overall positive portrayal Ron's affair with an activist while undercover and the sting of the bad apple racist cop.

Quote from: monolith on September 07, 2018, 02:31:40 PM
I don't know how anyone can see the sting at the end and think it wasn't deliberately ridiculous. There's things to criticise about the film but if you go for that scene then you look a bit silly.

https://youtu.be/B7f-OEvCQWg?t=2m42s

monolith

Quote from: marquis_de_sad on September 07, 2018, 03:04:08 PM

https://youtu.be/B7f-OEvCQWg?t=2m42s
Funnily enough I actually thought of Brass Eye when writing that. It seems almost as ridiculous to take Brass Eye at face value.

marquis_de_sad

Quote from: monolith on September 07, 2018, 04:02:02 PM
Funnily enough I actually thought of Brass Eye when writing that. It seems almost as ridiculous to take Brass Eye at face value.

Fair enough we have a different interpretation of that scene, but you're really pushing it now. Not everything that's exaggerated and broad is satire.

monolith

Quote from: marquis_de_sad on September 07, 2018, 04:21:56 PM
Fair enough we have a different interpretation of that scene, but you're really pushing it now. Not everything that's exaggerated and broad is satire.
Yeah, fair point, that's why I didn't post it originally. Laughed when I saw the video though and thought I'd share but whilst I do disagree on your interpretation I will concede that it might not be quite as bad as taking Brass Eye at face value :).

Pepotamo1985

Quote from: marquis_de_sad on September 07, 2018, 03:04:08 PM
I think we've probably reached deadlock on the sting scene

Agreed, but...

Quote from: Mister Six on September 07, 2018, 02:20:36 PM
He's in about four scenes, and comprises a minor subplot in a film that's already got a lot going on.

Yes, but as I say, whenever he pops up it's to undermine Stallworth in a cartoonish and cliched way, as an obvious, two-dimensional arch-antagonist would in any teen frat comedy. I think it then follows the sting falls into that same dynamic - particularly as it also puts a stamp of final approval on the various 'paths' the cop characters take through the film (Stallworth as triumphant civil rights hero, Zimmerman as formerly apathetic jobsworth turned-impassioned anti-racist, boss as Stallworth-skeptic turned cheerleader). I can't really see any other reason for putting him in otherwise. It'd be interesting indeed to see if other 'HE'S AN ARSEHOLE' scenes got cut from the script or indeed final film.

Quote from: Mister Six on September 07, 2018, 02:20:36 PM
The whole film has a heightened, slightly cartoony/abstracted air

Which is one of the many reasons why I don't believe the sting scene was remotely satirical in intent.

Quote from: Mister Six on September 07, 2018, 02:20:36 PM
it seems clear to me that Lee is ratcheting up the artificiality

But couldn't you say that about the entire film, or at least a great many moments within it? Stallworth strutting round the office and high-fiving everyone and the subsequent reveal phonecall to Duke are both fairly obviously a whooping, fist-pumping feel-good moments - both satirical? Both playing with the audience? Most of the conversations with DD, in fact, seem pretty knowingly played for dramatic laughs - again, satire? Or just very basic dramatic irony.

Conversely, the Jewish cop successfully infiltrating the KKK is entirely artificial and done for the purposes of drama - and comedy. Is the moment his real identity is revealed and challenged by Felix actually Lee saying to the audience 'THIS WOULD NEVER HAPPEN'?

Quote from: Mister Six on September 07, 2018, 02:20:36 PM
"In real life there are no convenient moments of grand justice. Don't wait around for someone in authority to fix things - get angry."

My take of the movie's message was 'look what happens in people in authority ignore problems and fail to use their powers'. There's nothing in the film about ordinary citizens getting mad, in fact ordinary citizens are portrayed universally as fucking useless without the state protecting them - and tellingly, the SINGLE bad apple on the police force is taken down due to the system using its powers.

Quote from: Mister Six on September 07, 2018, 02:20:36 PM
clearly I'm not alone in thinking so

For what it's worth, the packed cinema I watched it in almost universally whooped like crazy when they saw that, and I've seen many people (both paid-up reviewers and lay forum/article commenters) praise the scene online, so it's certainly been taken at face value by a number of viewers. But I guess they could always have been conned, and that may have been the point.

Quote from: monolith on September 07, 2018, 02:31:40 PM
I don't know how anyone can see the sting at the end and think it wasn't deliberately ridiculous

I think I set out why I didn't quite comprehensively, using actual arguments, so less of the "you look a bit silly" wanker comments eh? Unless you have something of substance to say to support your view, which you don't appear to.

Quote from: marquis_de_sad on September 07, 2018, 03:04:08 PM
Without the Charlottesville coda, I wonder how forgiving people would be about that mash-up at the end.

I imagine most cops would watch BlackkKlansman and feel very very comfortable with the way the police were portrayed, including the overall positive portrayal Ron's affair with an activist while undercover and the sting of the bad apple racist cop.

Very good points.

Z

Quote from: marquis_de_sad on September 07, 2018, 03:04:08 PM
I can't remember where I read this so I may have got it wrong, but I believe the idea to put the Charlottesville footage at the end came very late, as the event itself only happened weeks before they started filming. I imagine — and yeah this is speculation — that they had a number of endings and weren't sure which one to go with, then someone suggested tying it in with Charlottesville; there's the clear Duke connection after all. It ends the film well, but I feel like they shouldn't have included those other endings (or not all of them at least) as it gave the ending (the broader ending, not just the 21st century stuff) a disjointed feeling. As it is, the film is more powerful with that footage, but I wonder if people would defend the racist cop sting without it.

Without that footage, the endings sequence would be: Ron and Flip foil the Klan's bombing (and our most intense villain dies off-screen), then the gang call up Duke and laugh at him, then the gang works together to get rid of Bad Apple racist cop, then Ron and Patrice exchange banter at their apartment (when in reality she would detest him) only to discover a cross burning on the lawn. The battle won, but the war not yet over. So you had (in order) the thriller ending, the comedy ending, the feelgood/satire ending, the ominous blaxploitation ending. Without the (relatively long and powerfully edited) Charlottesville coda, I wonder how forgiving people would be about that mash-up at the end.

I think we've probably reached deadlock on the sting scene, but you asked rhetorically how much I'm familiar with racist cops. I could return that question by asking you how familiar you are with US cops' commitment to the bad apple theory of police corruption and institutionalised racism. Because I imagine most cops would watch BlackkKlansman and feel very very comfortable with the way the police were portrayed, including the overall positive portrayal Ron's affair with an activist while undercover and the sting of the bad apple racist cop.

https://youtu.be/B7f-OEvCQWg?t=2m42s
That's from me earlier in the thread.
Considering the whole film was likely shot and edited with a Charlottesville coda in mind, I don't think it's even viable to analyse how it would be if that was cut from it. A lot would probably be different, it'd almost certainly have been a worse film but I can't really assume much beyond that.



I do think Lee was probably trying to have his cake and eat it with that cartoon racist cop though, and he'll only start to address whatever he was trying for properly after it stops (by his standards) raking in money in cinemas and critical opinion sours a bit on it.
If he actually was getting a bit of a payoff from NYPD, making the singular racist cop and the sting so ridiculous may have just been his way of making himself feel okay about taking the money.

thugler

Firmly on the side of the final scene being exactly like the rest of the film. But surprised at how the rather cheap use of the Charlottesville footage has been accepted. Yes it horrible to watch and produces a visceral reaction, but it's only tangentially related to the real world story they took the story from, which they radically altered but still fails to have much to say about today's situation other than obvious trump references . The majority of the film is cheesy as hell and the villains are broad and obvious, to go from that to real world events to try and give them meaning while giving the police a total free pass is bizarre. With the right focus this could have been a really important film but it totally fails to have anything relevant to say.

Shit Good Nose

Yes, "broad" is the word.

I enjoyed it for what it is and it is the best thing (theatrical feature wise) Lee has done for years, which I know isn't saying much.  But it's obviously a cartoon.

Whatever, it's fine but it's no Do the Right Thing.

Pepotamo1985

Quote from: thugler on September 07, 2018, 06:11:44 PM
But surprised at how the rather cheap use of the Charlottesville footage has been accepted. Yes it horrible to watch and produces a visceral reaction

I think that's why I liked it - it was a blessed relief to finally be presented with something serious and meaningful in the film. Certainly doesn't redeem Blackkklansman in any way though - in fact, it further reinforces its woeful quality, particularly in respect of its underlying political message. What I took from the ending was LOOK WHAT HAPPENED BECAUSE AUTHORITIES FAILED TO CRACK DOWN ON VIOLENT RACIST GROUPS. Chief shuts down investigation of KKK, they keep burning crosses, fast forward to Charlottesville - if only Stallworth had been allowed to continue (doing the thing he didn't actually do in real life), this wouldn't have happened.

Just to be boring and jabber on about the sting yet further, in the context of the above interpretation, it takes on an even more cynical and on-the-nose quality, given it ties in with the notion of state power being the best form of protection, and redeems the police chief, further underlining cops are (on the whole) the good guys.

iamcoop

My overriding memory of this film is finding it incredibly dull.


Brundle-Fly

Just watched 'dis joint' this afternoon and thought it was pretty powerful, funny and entertaining. Yes, it was 'a bit on the nose' and 'slightly cartoony' for such a thorny subject but I took the style as homage to Blaxploitation movies and that trilogy of Poitier/Cosby comedies from the mid-seventies. For that reason alone I loved it, took me back to the sort of films BBC1 used to show after the nine o'clock news on a Monday night.

I get the idea that Spike Lee wants to reach a wider and younger audience with this. Don't think he was interested in making a subtle movie. Top tunes and soundtrack from Terence Blanchard there.

zomgmouse

I liked this film a lot but agree there were many parts that felt all over the place. It's the final footage that really cemented it for me. There's definitely elements that didn't work or weren't fleshed out enough, but I think it straddled that serious-jaunty divide pretty okay for the most part, and the ending seemed to me to be deliberately amping up the fantasy-like cinema and then thrusting you head-first in the real world. Not perfect, overall, but it gave me a very powerful reaction and there was a lot to enjoy.

Also I'm not sure it's an accurate criticism to say the film wouldn't have worked without that real-life footage, because, well, it's in there, so you have to take it with it. It's like saying Citizen Kane wouldn't have worked without the opening scene, or whatever. Or that a horse wouldn't work without one of its legs. Yes, you're right, but it's got all of its legs, so treat it as such.