Topic: Top of the Pops on BBC Four - Thread Two.

[buzby]

I guess by 2000 the returns on all this music would have dropped to a small amount. If he was lucky he would have bought a flat/house outright in the early 90's when he had his advance money flying around.

Killer was rerecorded by Trevor Horn for Seal's debut album which was very successful so he would have done nicely from that, although only as the co-writer of one track. You barely heard Killer on the radio etc after it's release and when you do it is likely to be the Seal LP version, so likely doesn't bring in much revenue for him nowdays.

Adamski's version ofKiller has appeared on loads of compilations and mix albums through the years though, so he will have been getting some royalties back from it.

[Sebastian Cobb]

1990 should be a clear run, unless there's another live show they ballsed up the recording of, or if Craig McLachlan is now on the banned list. No new presenters either, and we'll also see the end of host pairing, which is a bit of a shame. If there was nothing else going on in the show, there was usually always some kind of fuckery between the two TOTP hosts that was entertaining.

Possibly unsurprisingly, Betty Boo and Orbital in particular came across really well in that documentary. Penny Ford was also good in explaining all the Snap sampling business. Adamski, however

Even better, he looks like Harold Shipman here.

[cosmic-hearse]

That TOTP 1990 show is the best telly I've seen in ages.  Loved all the stuff with MC Tunes, in the words of the 808 State guy, had "seen a bit of life... I think he'd had a run-in with a bus".

I wish they could have recapped Adamski's punk past with his childhood project, The Stupid Babies, but alas probably not quite relevant enough.

Adamski, 808 State, Orbital, Youth - it's striking how many (ex) punks were at the vanguard of pop music at the time

[Better Midlands]

Adamski's version ofKiller has appeared on loads of compilations and mix albums through the years though, so he will have been getting some royalties back from it.

It's a shame you don't get to hear it more, it's such a great tune - I think it's too unusual for commercial crowds and too commercial for underground heads.

The Trevor Horn version isn't a patch on Adamski's original.

There's an interesting Point Blank reconstruction which has an interview with him where he explains the production process behind it.

Edit: just poking around and I saw that George Michael did a cover that was on a charity EP he released - so he may or may not have got royalties for that.

[DrGreggles]

Killer is a great song, but a very odd number one.

[Better Midlands]

Adamski, 808 State, Orbital, Youth - it's striking how many (ex) punks were at the vanguard of pop music at the time

It's often been said that dance music was the punk of it's time due to people making it at home and releasing their own records. Paul Daley from Leftfield was in punk bands originally too.

It's post post-punk really.

[edon]

That TOTP 1990 show is the best telly I've seen in ages.  Loved all the stuff with MC Tunes, in the words of the 808 State guy, had "seen a bit of life... I think he'd had a run-in with a bus".

I never knew about the whole samurai sword thing he did at the DMC DJ championships, that managed to get a laugh out of me. It then also also led me to a good blog Graham Massey seems to have wrote about working with him:

https://massonix.wordpress.com/2011/11/14/m-c-tunes-vs-808-state-north-at-its-heights/

[monkfromhavana]

It's often been said that dance music was the punk of it's time due to people making it at home and releasing their own records. Paul Daley from Leftfield was in punk bands originally too.

It's post post-punk really.

I've always taken a slight issue with this. A lot of the features of punk (independent labels, homemade tracks) are the same, but dance music took it a lot further, and due to the democratization of technology, was far more widespread and open than punk ever was. I am open to being corrected, as I know very little about punk, but from my ill-informed standpoint it feels like punk was largely voyeuristic, whereas house was participatory.

[Better Midlands]

I've always taken a slight issue with this. A lot of the features of punk (independent labels, homemade tracks) are the same, but dance music took it a lot further, and due to the democratization of technology, was far more widespread and open than punk ever was. I am open to being corrected, as I know very little about punk, but from my ill-informed standpoint it feels like punk was largely voyeuristic, whereas house was participatory.

It's more the DIY ethos of punk musicians/labels more than the music itself.

Musically if you look into post punk (which a lot of punk musicians evolved into) you'll see it was heavily inflected by disco and early house is basically disco. The Chicago clubs that gave birth to house music played a lot of post punk/new wave - especially Ron Hardy.
Screamin' Rachael who ran Trax Records was an ex-punk so it happened over there too.

[Captain Z]

I've just looked up the Trevor Horn version of Killer on YT - never heard it before. It's always been the Adamski version whenever I've heard it played. ATB also covered it in 1999/2000 and got to #4 in the chart plus loads of compilations, so I expect Adamski picked up a bit from that too.

[edon]

Pretty sure the original Adamski ver was used in an advert for some Wi-Fi hub just recently as well, which must've helped.

[Norton Canes]

What the very fuck was going on with those bizarre video inserts during the interviews? Seal talks about meeting Adamski in a café, interspersed with random footage of a completely unrelated café. Paul Hartnoll mentions that on the day he was invited to play on Top Of The Pops he was supposed to be at work in a pizza parlour, while we watch stock footage of people making pizzas. I know it's a bit of a trope that programme makers often choose over-literal shots to illustrate points made in interviews (cf. Norman Cook telling us he fancied Lindy Layton as a photo of them hugging flashes onto the screen) but at least the visuals are generally relevant. Some piss-taking by the production team going on here, surely.

[gilbertharding]

I noticed that too - and presumed it was intentionally (but slyly) comic. I didn't mind.

[Norton Canes]

Anyway, some more takeouts from the docco:

• Nice to see Adamski, Massey, Tunes and Hoots all being so personable and erudite. Perhaps years on E really does turn out a better sort of person.
• Is it time Tunes was, like Shaun Ryder and Bez, elevated to the status of... well, if not National Treasure, then at least Regional Hoard?
• Despite what Hoots said about The Farm's propensity to dress down, their white jeans n' casuals look was a lot more co-ordinated than many of the other pop acts' clobber
• Jesus, that commentary by Norman Cook and Lindy Layton on the performance of Dub Be Good went on a bit
• Similarly, that (admittedly well-polished) retelling by Penny Ford on the story of the vocals for The Power would have had a lot more impact if it hadn't been basically exactly the same story as that of Ride On Time only last year
• The 'out of hours' footage was a nice idea, but would have been much better if the BBC had, instead of giving us 30 seconds of Liza Minelli, edited footage from a load of bands together for a one-hour special
• Great to see the Hartnoll brothers back on speaking terms - I know they had a falling out a few years ago - but by the end of that interview it looked like Paul was on the verge of lumping Phil...
• And those U.S. Evangelist groups... like, I get that they would be pretty pissed at the idea of Satanic messages in rock music, but... two guys exposed as miming frauds? Did that really warrant the road-roller treatment?

[edon]

Anyway, some more takeouts from the docco:

• Similarly, that (admittedly well-polished) retelling by Penny Ford on the story of the vocals for The Power would have had a lot more impact if it hadn't been basically exactly the same story as that of Ride On Time only last year
• The 'out of hours' footage was a nice idea, but would have been much better if the BBC had, instead of giving us 30 seconds of Liza Minelli, edited footage from a load of bands together for a one-hour special

1 - To be fair, I don't think they properly covered Ride On Time's story for 1989's documentary, so it is at least fresh in the context of these. Plus it's probably not quite as well known either.

2 - The BBC must have hours of unaired TOTP performances in their archive. Apparently there's at least 30+ others from the 90s, and the majority of them are probably very good. Interestingly the Liza performance did get uploaded in full onto YouTube earlier this year, alongside one by Belinda Carlisle which happened during the same recording sessions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j8ZA4Un7Nc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flV3ZLNWzrI

Doesn't look like an actual BBC account, even though they've been hosting livestream watchalongs of various 90s episodes recently as well.

[buzby]

Adamski, 808 State, Orbital, Youth - it's striking how many (ex) punks were at the vanguard of pop music at the time

Jimmy Cauty and BIll Drummond also being ex-punks - members of Angels One-5 and Big In Japan respectively.

In Glover's case he was hardly in the vanguard. Most of his post-Joke career has been down to having a keen sense of whose coat-tails to grab onto. In that case of Blue Pearl and The Orb, it was his ex-bandmate in Brilliant, Jimmy Cauty.

After the original release of What Time Is Love? became a club hit in the summer of 1989, Glover put together a cheeky WTIL? soundalike with Pink Floyd backing vocalist Durga McBroom (the demo was recorded at the KLF's Trancentral squat-studio using Cauty's gear). Glover's original Paradise Mix from the promo sounds  sounds even more like WTIL?

Through his friendship with Cauty he asked him to provide a couple of remixes - the Pure Trance mix, a slowed down ambient trance version that used a completely different whispered vocal to the original mix and the New Age mix, which was basically an instrumental version of the Pure Trance mix.

They were released as a promo on Wau! Mr Modo (Glover, Patterson and Weston's label that was set up to release Orb records after Cauty walked away over not wanting The Orb's records to be released by a label related to Glover and Patterson's dodgy manager Jazz Summers) alongside the Paradise mix, and the buzz it created in the clubs led to the track being picked up by Summers' Big Life label for a full release. Graham Massey was asked to remix it, initially as the 808 Jazz mix, and he was then asked to rework his mix for the full 7" and 12" single releases at Berwick Street Studios with Glover (which he never got properly paid for, a trademark of anyone who worked with Jazz Summers). Massey is the person responsible for it being a hit.

It's a shame you don't get to hear it more, it's such a great tune - I think it's too unusual for commercial crowds and too commercial for underground heads.

The Trevor Horn version isn't a patch on Adamski's original.

There's an interesting Point Blank reconstruction which has an interview with him where he explains the production process behind it.

Edit: just poking around and I saw that George Michael did a cover that was on a charity EP he released - so he may or may not have got royalties for that.

He's still listed as co-writer on the Seal/Horn version too, so he's been getting roylaties from that as well.

[Better Midlands]

Paul Hartnoll's face when his brother was talking maybe a little over enthusiastically was a joy.

[Huxleys Babkins]

One of the great questions I've never got around to finding the answer to.
If you had a big hit in the early 90s, and the dj gigs that go with it etc – is it possible to never really have to work again?
Or live a comfortable life where a forehead tattoo and candyfloss beard are feasible?

You know you're on CAB when folks are describing a tattoo on the top of someone's head as a "forehead tattoo".

[Jockice]

They were released as a promo on Wau! Mr Modo (Glover, Patterson and Weston's label that was set up to release Orb records after Cauty walked away over not wanting The Orb's records to be released by a label related to Glover and Patterson's dodgy manager Jazz Summers)

I either didn't know or had totally forgotten about that. Wau! Mr Modo was based in Sheffield so I used to write about their releases. But it was a guy called Adam Morris I dealt with, who was a really nice chap (unlike certain people at Fon and Warp) and according to Wikipedia was Paterson's manager. Adam's still around I think although I haven't seen him for years. We are Facebook friends though. Never met Patterson, and only met Youth once briefly, at a recording of the Dance Energy TV programme.

Strange that I couldn't remember The Orb connection though. Maybe the two E tablets I took in 1991 have warped my consciousness.

[buzby]

I either didn't know or had totally forgotten about that. Wau! Mr Modo was based in Sheffield so I used to write about their releases. But it was a guy called Adam Morris I dealt with, who was a really nice chap (unlike certain people at Fon and Warp) and according to Wikipedia was Paterson's manager. Adam's still around I think although I haven't seen him for years. We are Facebook friends though. Never met Patterson, and only met Youth once briefly, at a recording of the Dance Energy TV programme.

Strange that I couldn't remember The Orb connection though. Maybe the two E tablets I took in 1991 have warped my consciousness.

WAU! Mr Modo was a merging of two labels - Glover's London-based WAU Recordings and Morris' Modo Records, which as you say was based in Sheffield. Needless to say, Glover, Patterson and Jazz Summers of Big Life conspired to stiff Adam Morris as soon as they got any success. There's an article on Kris Weston's website involving the incompetence of Glover and sharp practices from Summers that left Morris carrying the can and massively in debt over Blue Pearl. It also covers how Summers poached The Orb from Morris too:
https://krisweston.com/news/how-we-really-made-the-orb-little-fluffy-clouds-interview.html

There's also some interesting legal documents that Morris has allowed him to publish which detail how he was ambushed by Summers, Glover & co into handing over control of the label and it's back catalogue.
https://www.krisweston.com/contracts/adam/adam_litigation_statement2-23-06-95.pdf

[steveh]

The Guardian's obituary of Summers contains the line "In 2003 Summers was presented with the Peter Grant award, which recognises outstanding careers in music management", which made me laugh.

[Jockice]

WAU! Mr Modo was a merging of two labels - Glover's London-based WAU Recordings and Morris' Modo Records, which as you say was based in Sheffield. Needless to say, Glover, Patterson and Jazz Summers of Big Life conspired to stiff Adam Morris as soon as they got any success. There's an article on Kris Weston's website involving the incompetence of Glover and sharp practices from Summers that left Morris carrying the can and massively in debt over Blue Pearl. It also covers how Summers poached The Orb from Morris too:
https://krisweston.com/news/how-we-really-made-the-orb-little-fluffy-clouds-interview.html

There's also some interesting legal documents that Morris has allowed him to publish which detail how he was ambushed by Summers, Glover & co into handing over control of the label and it's back catalogue.
https://www.krisweston.com/contracts/adam/adam_litigation_statement2-23-06-95.pdf

Thanks for this Buzby. You're a constant source of excellent information.

[Jockice]

Thanks for this Buzby. You're a constant source of excellent information.

Mind you I've just clicked on them and they're blocked.

[buzby]

Mind you I've just clicked on them and they're blocked.

They aren't blocked, it's just that Weston hasn't renewed his website's certificate (it expired on 04/10/2020). He's not in the best of health both physically and mentally, so he's probably got more important things to worry about. Firefox gives you the option of proceeding past the 'here be monsters' security warning at your own risk by clicking on the 'Advanced' button instead of 'Go Back'.

[Jockice]

They aren't blocked, it's just that Weston has let his website's certificate expire (he's not in the best of health both physically and mentally). Firefox gives you the option of proceeding past the 'here be monsters' security warning at your own risk.

Ah right cheers. I've never actually used Firefox but I'll have a look later.

[Sebastian Cobb]

If you're using Chrome, it'll also let you bypass a certificate warning by typing 'thisisunsafe'.

[Jockice]

The Guardian's obituary of Summers contains the line "In 2003 Summers was presented with the Peter Grant award, which recognises outstanding careers in music management", which made me laugh.

Named after Peter Grant, the mediocre former Celtic midfielder.

[grainger]

• And those U.S. Evangelist groups... like, I get that they would be pretty pissed at the idea of Satanic messages in rock music, but... two guys exposed as miming frauds? Did that really warrant the road-roller treatment?

Is this about Milli Vanilli? Some Americans are still angry about them. It's like an entire nation had never heard of session musicians, people miming (lip-syncing) or just having people in bands/groups who openly don't play on the records. Pop music is meant to be like that!

[Norton Canes]

And they'd only been around, like, a year, and had one proper hit. It's not like it had come out that Bruce Springsteen had spent his entire career miming

[Pauline Walnuts]

Is this about Milli Vanilli? Some Americans are still angry about them. It's like an entire nation had never heard of session musicians, people miming (lip-syncing) or just having people in bands/groups who openly don't play on the records. Pop music is meant to be like that!

Done by the same bloke who brought the world Boney M. No one seemed to mind about them.

Maybe it's because Boney M. had a wall of non-stop bangers and great pop tunes, and Milli Vanilli were boring.

Dunno to be honest.